Irish so-called "cities"

ForestFire · 10-06-2017 08:09PM

bodhrandude wrote: »

I thought Tuam in County Galway would get a mention, is that not considered a city, probably the smallest in Ireland anyway.

There is 2 cathedrals in Tuam, both Catholic and Protestant and some people think this alone means city. while Tuam is a lovely town to live in, I think it is a long way off a city.

Onthatpoint417 · 10-06-2017 08:09PM

Yourself isit wrote: »

All countries do that. The metropolitan areas are bigger than the city.

The problem with Dublin is that it's not actually got a defined city admin - 4 counties. Insane.

I'm not arguing with that. The phrease "rural agglomeration" is illiterate. An agglomeration is by definition urban!

Also as Greater Cork is undefined I see no sense in saying that metropolitan Cork is some kind of subset of it!

The Irish wikipedia pages just seem to be squeezing as many words like urban/ metro/ greater etc on to the page as possible!

Dublin city council is a defined city council area and has an administration that covers that area. The three other counties make up the rest of the county. True Dublin has no overall council. This is similar to the situation in Britain. The overarching urban councils like Greater Manchester and Greater London were abolished by the Thacher govt in the 80s because naturally they were Labour dominated and were in often in opposition to central government.

Onthatpoint417 · 10-06-2017 08:16PM

reason vs religion wrote: »

I think you've should realise that those people who care about your religion (:D) are in a tiny minority. I could never imagine caring, let alone asking. Concentrate on all those who don't ask!

When is that not the case?!

A "rural county agglomeration" cannot exist. The agglomeration is the urban area which the writer just said is 79k. It can't be any more.

reason vs religion · 10-06-2017 08:28PM

Onthatpoint417 wrote: »

A "rural county agglomeration" cannot exist. The agglomeration is the urban area which the writer just said is 79k. It can't be any more.

It's ambiguous what is meant by agglomeration. One could conceive of it meaning a theoretical agglomeration of rural towns, in contrast to the city. I don't think this is what was meant, though! Instead, that inclusion of rural populations increases the population substantially. And my original question was, When would that not be the case? A medieval city?!

10-06-2017 08:29PM

reason vs religion wrote: »

It's ambiguous what is meant by agglomeration. One could conceive of it meaning a theoretical agglomeration of rural towns, in contrast to the city. I don't think this is what was meant, though! Instead, that inclusion of rural populations increases the population substantially. And my original question was, When would that not be the case? A medieval city?!

....aaaaaaaaaaaaand unfollow thread.

Onthatpoint417 · 10-06-2017 08:29PM

Aden Weak Landmark wrote: »

Belfast also has the tallest, and most of the top 10 tallest buildings on the Island. Guess in 30+yrs the the Dublin-Belfast development corridor will become Ireland's mega-city and single largest commuter region if they ever build something like Hyperloop or HS Rail.

If you had to pick the centre of population gravity on the island (bit of a guesstimate) but it would probably be in the SW area of Co. Louth, maybe Meath.

The point about tall buildings is an interesting one.

I think high speed rail is a step too far if you're referring to something like the TGV in France. Trains that go at a reasonably high speed (over 100mph) would be fine. There are serious questions about whether the proposed high speed connection between London and Birmingham is justified. And that route would go through huge centres of population. With that in mind the talk of high speed rail between Galway and Dublin is just daft!

reason vs religion · 10-06-2017 08:29PM

Omackeral wrote: »

....aaaaaaaaaaaaand unfollow thread.

Byyyeeeee

Onthatpoint417 · 10-06-2017 08:34PM

reason vs religion wrote: »

It's ambiguous what is meant by agglomeration. One could conceive of it meaning a theoretical agglomeration of rural towns, in contrast to the city. I don't think this is what was meant, though! Instead, that inclusion of rural populations increases the population substantially. And my original question was, When would that not be the case? A medieval city?!

Why not just say the rural hinterland increases the population of Galway substantiall? If it's a string of connected towns then it's not rural, it's a separate urban area. Anyway I've yet to see evidence of this burgeoning population surrounding Galway. Instead they just used the opportunity to use an urban - ey word. The Greater Metropolitan Urban Agglomeration of the City of Galway. How about that?

reason vs religion · 10-06-2017 08:34PM

Onthatpoint417 wrote: »

The point about tall buildings is an interesting one.

I think high speed rail is a step too far if you're referring to something like the TGV in France. Trains that go at a reasonably high speed (over 100mph) would be fine. There are serious questions about whether the proposed high speed connection between London and Birmingham is justified. And that route would go through huge centres of population. With that in mind the talk of high speed rail between Galway and Dublin is just daft!

Of course, in terms of time, TGV speeds effectively make the trip an average work commute. The marginal utility drops off substantially with extra journey time.

Of less importance (and arguably merely a distraction) is intermediate stops. The central purpose is to link the two relatively massive urban centres on the island, between which there is currently little economic integration.

ToddyDoody · 10-06-2017 08:36PM

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

Waterford city has been left behind by Ireland sinces the 1980s.

Waterford's very important.

I believe it wouldn't be thought odd to roam the streets shouting 'WATERFORD!!!!' every 10 seconds.

Onthatpoint417 · 10-06-2017 08:42PM

ToddyDoody wrote: »

Waterford's very important.

I believe it wouldn't be thought odd to roam the streets shouting 'WATERFORD!!!!' every 10 seconds.

Here's an example of how ridiculous the Celtic Tiger became. I remember seeing a proposal for a Luas in Waterford on an election leaflet.

zetalambda · 10-06-2017 09:21PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

A true metropolis would be Dublin City.

The others are large towns surrounded by housing estates.

There's nothing wrong with that, we're a small nation with a relatively small population.

Keep dreaming. Dublin is a mickey mouse city. A true metropolis is New York, London, Tokyo. Even when you compare Dublin to other cities with similar population it's still seems so small. Take Calgary in Canada for example which has less people than Dublin. Below is the city center.

ToddyDoody · 10-06-2017 09:22PM

zetalambda wrote: »

Keep dreaming. Dublin is a mickey mouse city. A true metropolis is New York, London, Tokyo. Even when you compare Dublin to other cities with similar population it's still seems so small. Take Calgary in Canada for example which has less people than Dublin. Below is the city center.

You can't go comparing Dublin with a place that's well planned.

Onthatpoint417 · 10-06-2017 09:33PM

zetalambda wrote: »

Keep dreaming. Dublin is a mickey mouse city. A true metropolis is New York, London, Tokyo. Even when you compare Dublin to other cities with similar population it's still seems so small. Take Calgary in Canada for example which has less people than Dublin. Below is the city center.

Visual comparisons with North American cities are very misleading. Many cities, some of them much smaller than Dublin have skyscrapers in the centre. But this doesn't translate into density. Apart from New York and San Francisco and maybe a couple of others the major American cities have a far lower population density than Dublin never mind London or Paris. A quick look at Calgary's figures shows that it is in fact smaller in size than Dublin and much lower density.

I also doubt they are very well planned. Houston in Texas may be full of skyscrapers but I'm guessing you'd struggle to get around there without a car! All that a bunch of skyscrapers shows is that there aren't strict height restrictions which are a form of planning.

Onthatpoint417 · 10-06-2017 09:53PM

lalabear53 wrote: »

Anyone that is familiar with Sligo town will know that there is numerous signs around it saying "City Core " and "City Loop" also believe that there is a sign when entering Sligo from the southern side saying "Welcome to the Gateway City"

About ten years ago I remember seeing a "Galway city East" on a road sign! I've never seen anything like that in Dublin.

ToddyDoody · 10-06-2017 10:06PM

Onthatpoint417 wrote: »

About ten years ago I remember seeing a "Galway city East" on a road sign! I've never seen anything like that in Dublin.

I remember that. Very impressive.

reason vs religion · 10-06-2017 10:08PM

Wikipedia definition of metropolis: "A metropolis (/mᵻˈtrɒpəlɪs, -plɪs/) is a large city or conurbation which is a significant economic, political, and cultural center for a country or region, and an important hub for regional or international connections, commerce, and communications."

Residential population density is therefore not a relevant factor. Indeed, you could see how such density might decrease as offices, cultural amenities, etc, proliferate.

Onthatpoint417 · 10-06-2017 10:11PM

ToddyDoody wrote: »

I remember that. Very impressive.

I've just discovered a Twitter account dedicated to humour at the expense of the "City Loop" around the Sligo Town. There are 16 junctions on this very heavily signposted ring road. It must be a bit of a joke for the locals!

Onthatpoint417 · 10-06-2017 10:21PM

reason vs religion wrote: »

Wikipedia definition of metropolis: "A metropolis (/mᵻˈtrɒpəlɪs, -plɪs/) is a large city or conurbation which is a significant economic, political, and cultural center for a country or region, and an important hub for regional or international connections, commerce, and communications."

Residential population density is therefore not a relevant factor. Indeed, you could see how such density might decrease as offices, cultural amenities, etc, proliferate.

A proliferation of those will also attract people to the centre as well as pushing those who can't afford away!In practice the cause of low density is going to be caused by a combination of cheap land and poor planning. Manhattan has an incredibly high population density despite it being also the world's commercial and cultural capital. Central London also has a high residential density. I'm thinking of the low density cities of America which make Dublin's public transport system look world class. By definition low density cities make the provision of infrastructure much more expensive.

John_Rambo · 10-06-2017 10:26PM

zetalambda wrote: »

Keep dreaming. Dublin is a mickey mouse city. A true metropolis is New York, London, Tokyo. Even when you compare Dublin to other cities with similar population it's still seems so small. Take Calgary in Canada for example which has less people than Dublin. Below is the city center.

I preempted this type of post earlier on in the thread. Dublin is a city, it's not a Micky Mouse city, large town or big village, it's a city with commerce, culture, arts, government and a dirty underbelly that all cities have. It's got and incredible history too. It, along with other cities in Ireland are the economic powerhouses of the country.

Tokyo, London and New York are megacities.

Their existance doesn't make Dublin a non-city or a Micky Mouse city.

That's like saying an Abarth Fiat 500 isn't a car, a 5 series BMW is a car.

Again, cities are different from one and other. That's what makes them interesting.

zetalambda · 11-06-2017 12:09AM

Onthatpoint417 wrote: »

Visual comparisons with North American cities are very misleading. Many cities, some of them much smaller than Dublin have skyscrapers in the centre. But this doesn't translate into density. Apart from New York and San Francisco and maybe a couple of others the major American cities have a far lower population density than Dublin never mind London or Paris. A quick look at Calgary's figures shows that it is in fact smaller in size than Dublin and much lower density.

I also doubt they are very well planned. Houston in Texas may be full of skyscrapers but I'm guessing you'd struggle to get around there without a car! All that a bunch of skyscrapers shows is that there aren't strict height restrictions which are a form of planning.

It's not a visual comparison. I've lived in both cities. Calgary is smaller than Dublin in population not size. It's over 7 times the size of Dublin. And there's no comparison between the two cities where planning is concerned. The Irish planners should take a trip over there sometime. They might learn a few things. In Calgary, people seem to prefer driving rather than public transport and car ownership would be a lot higher than Ireland but in spite of that I never once saw a traffic jam there because the road network can easily handle all the traffic. Public transport is very similar to Dublin with a light rail and bus network although it's cheaper and the light rail network is far superior to the luas and dart. Strict height restrictions exhist in Calgary too. Have a closer look at the photo. The height of towers reduces the closer you get to the green areas so as not to block out light. And there are whole districts in the city center or just outside where no more than 3 storeys is allowed.

Onthatpoint417 wrote: »

About ten years ago I remember seeing a "Galway city East" on a road sign! I've never seen anything like that in Dublin.

I have! I remember in Dublin about 10 years ago they used to have a sign at the junction of malahide road and clontarf road they had a sign with an arrow pointing right that simply said "the city".

And on the m50, instead of a sign for Cork or Limerick or Galway, they just had signs that said "the south" or "the west"

This was just a blatant copy of the UK. They're gone now. Presumably too many people missed their exit and they reverted to the old less british system.

John_Rambo · 11-06-2017 12:15AM

zetalambda wrote: »

It's not a visual comparison. I've lived in both cities. Calgary is smaller than Dublin in population not size. It's over 7 times the size of Dublin. And there's no comparison between the two cities where planning is concerned. The Irish planners should take a trip over there sometime. They might learn a few things. In Calgary, people seem to prefer driving rather than public transport and car ownership would be a lot higher than Ireland but in spite of that I never once saw a traffic jam there because the road network can easily handle all the traffic. Public transport is very similar to Dublin with a light rail and bus network although it's cheaper and the light rail network is far superior to the luas and dart. Strict height restrictions exhist in Calgary too. Have a closer look at the photo. The height of towers reduces the closer you get to the green areas so as not to block out light. And there are whole districts in the city center or just outside where no more than 3 storeys is allowed.

Dublin started as an ancient medieval city. It's a LOT older than Calgary and it didn't have a oil boom. Most Dubliners would LOVE to improve public transport and reduce the cost to the user whilst retaining the historical features of the city.

Dublin's public transport is one of the least subidised public transport networks in Europe and that won't change unless you can find a TD that will stand up and tell everyone in there that Dublin needs cheaper transport and bigger subsidies.

Victor · 11-06-2017 12:16AM

Yourself isit wrote: »

The problem with Dublin is that it's not actually got a defined city admin - 4 counties

Dublin City Council is a hint.

goz83 wrote: »

I consider a city to be main hub. A city must have the following in it.

Airport

Few cities have airports in them.

timthumbni wrote: »

What population has cork? I've never been nor am I likely to go. Is it the 2nd largest city down south?

About 120,000 for the city, but there are quite a few suburbs and adjacent towns. from Ballincollig to Midleton and around the harbour, its about 280,000.

In contrast, if you take everything inside Larne-Bangor-Lisburn-Antrim, you are pushing to around 800,000-900,000, something many people don't appreciate.

timthumbni wrote: »

Though as a city it's very expensive imho so my wallet will be saying NO.

Showing your inner northerner?

wotzgoingon · 11-06-2017 12:25AM

Didn't realize things were so bad in China. People complain about Dublin's public transport be glad you don't live in some Chinese cities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjoJ8Tr6o1A

Onthatpoint417 · 11-06-2017 12:30AM

zetalambda wrote: »

It's not a visual comparison. I've lived in both cities. Calgary is smaller than Dublin in population not size. It's over 7 times the size of Dublin. And there's no comparison between the two cities where planning is concerned. The Irish planners should take a trip over there sometime. They might learn a few things. In Calgary, people seem to prefer driving rather than public transport and car ownership would be a lot higher than Ireland but in spite of that I never once saw a traffic jam there because the road network can easily handle all the traffic. Public transport is very similar to Dublin with a light rail and bus network although it's cheaper and the light rail network is far superior to the luas and dart. Strict height restrictions exhist in Calgary too. Have a closer look at the photo. The height of towers reduces the closer you get to the green areas so as not to block out light. And there are whole districts in the city center or just outside where no more than 3 storeys is allowed.

I have! I remember in Dublin about 10 years ago they used to have a sign at the junction of malahide road and clontarf road they had a sign with an arrow pointing right that simply said "the city". And on the m50, instead of a sign for Cork or Limerick or Galway, they just had signs that said "the south" or "the west" This was just a blatant copy of the UK. They're gone now. Presumably too many people missed their exit and they reverted to the old less british system.

Your posting of a photo suggests it was a visual comparison!!! In that case my point that an impressive skyline can be misleading still stands.

I've checked the Wikipedia page on Calgary and you're right that it has a decent public transport system but as the previous poster has just said Calgary planners could start with a clean slate.

They still have those road signs in much of the M50. Signs to "the City" or "the West" in Dublin seems reasonable enough to me. But having signs for the "city east" or "city loop" in very small "cities" seems to me an example of trying to hard!

Onthatpoint417 · 11-06-2017 12:38AM

Onthatpoint417 wrote: »

Your posting of a photo suggests it was a visual comparison!!! In that case my point that an impressive skyline can be misleading still stands.

I've checked the Wikipedia page on Calgary and you're right that it has a decent public transport system but as the previous poster has just said Calgary planners could start with a clean slate.

They still have those road signs in much of the M50. Signs to "the City" or "the West" in Dublin seems reasonable enough to me. But having signs for the "city east" or "city loop" in very small "cities" seems to me an example of trying to hard!

My reference to "clean slate" purely refers to Calgary being a new city. I'm not making any judgement on Dublin!!

wotzgoingon · 11-06-2017 12:39AM

I remember when I was a child in Dublin I used to see no high rise signs around the place and afaik they were not referring to a block of flats like the way Ballymun was.

I'm all for a few skyscraper's in Dublin. I do not think they are an eyesore. As was said in this thread there are many skyscrpers in small American cities and other cities around the world, New Zealand comes to mind. It's the planning authority in Dublin who do not allow them afaik.

4068ac1elhodqr · 11-06-2017 12:46AM

wotzgoingon wrote: »

Didn't realize things were so bad in China. People complain about Dublin's public transport be glad you don't live in some Chinese cities.

No bother to the Chinese, part of that JingJinJi mega-super-city includes Tianjin.

Tianjin will be the largest eco-city in the world. Driverless EN-V (cars), vertical farming, room for 350,000 and generally carbon-neutral. Imagine they'll build it in just over a few weeks.

Stephen15 · 11-06-2017 12:47AM

John_Rambo wrote: »

Dublin started as an ancient medieval city. It's a LOT older than Calgary and it didn't have a oil boom. Most Dubliners would LOVE to improve public transport and reduce the cost to the user whilst retaining the historical features of the city.

I don't get why our historical city is being used as an excuse for our low pop density when Rome has a higher density than us.

wotzgoingon · 11-06-2017 12:52AM

Check this link out someone posted earlier in this thread. City of London, population 8,000. It's a small area but still I thought it would have more people. But saying that it is most likely small in population as most of the buildings are for working and not living.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smallest_cities_in_the_United_Kingdom

Irish so-called "cities"

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