DNA Analysis

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

Here's a question for you all.

My Grandmother looks Italian, dark skin and all.
The problem is she was born to an Irish mother who apparently had her out of wedlock with an Italian migrant to Ireland.

This was kept a secret all their lives as you may imagine being a single mother without a husband in 1920/30 Ireland.
Most of her closest relatives took it to the grave.

She's obvisouly sensitive about it as I don't think she knows who her father is herself and she won't tell me anything.

Some other relatives say it's a lie that her father is Irish, some say he is Italian but I have a picture of her 18 years old in my house and she is very dark and looks Italian.

So my question is, If I get one of these tests can I finally determine if I have Italian blood or not? It's not that far back, Great grandfather. Or will my genes be too diluted by now with a mix from my mother? Or do genes ever dilute?

Some Italian DNA should show up if a great grandparent is Italian. You should have about 12.5% Italian but of course this can vary through inheritance. However, if there's an Italian ancestor that close then some percent should come up and if it does that could definitely confirm it. There is a specific region in Ancestry called Italy/Greece. DNA matches can also be useful.

pinkypinky wrote: »

So you wouldn't bother with 23andme then? In my search for someone who was adopted out of the family, it's the only main database I haven't covered.

I wouldn't say that I wouldn't bother with it. It's just that Ancestry has the largest database so a greater chance of finding a good match. MyHeritage and FTDNA allow you to upload raw DNA so you might as well when it's free. I just haven't tested with 23andme since I tested with Ancestry first since it's cheaper and has a larger database and there's no way to upload data to 23andme.

I also tested with LivingDNA because they are carrying out an Irish research project, it's a three-in-one test, it's not too expensive and I thought that it could be interesting to have a country broken down into regions. I don't have anything against 23andme and I'd definitely recommend 23andme over paying money to have a test done with MyHeritage. In fact I would be tempted to test with them just for the interesting trait stuff that they have.

When searching for biological parents I would consider testing with 23andme them too. A key person could have tested with 23andme and no other company.

Sorry about the multipost. I only realised after the first two posts that you can multi-quote.

Ipso wrote: »

Mitochondrial DNA is passed from the mother to her children and continues via any daughters.
Assuming your grandmother with Italian ancestry was on your mothers side, then your mother would inherit that mitochondrial DNA and then pass it on to you and your siblings.
Assuming you are female, you have this direct link to your grandmother which then goes back the whole way down the direct female line to great grand mother, great great grand mother, ggg grandmother etc
Anyone females that descend directly from this direct female lineage will carry similar mitochondrial DNA.
Take this assumed Italian grandmother, if her mother had any sisters then this aunts daughters (and sons, but the line then breaks) carry this same mitochondrial DNA and any of those daughters then pass this down to their daughters.
This haplogroup unites all of you, but looking at haplogroups alone is too broad.
From my understanding Family Tree DNA offer MTDNA tests where they look at the mitochondrial haplogroup and match against the database of people with the same haplogroup and estimate how many generations separate you.
If you can get a match beyond two generations and this persons female line is from Italy then you have confirmed the Italy link.

Have a look at this forum, it may give a better idea of what the test can do. I have not ordered it so I don't want to assume too much.

http://forums.familytreedna.com/forumdisplay.php?f=210

Even if the grandmother is on the mother's side would the mtDNA not just give information about the Irish mother's lineage (that is already known and relatives on mother's side) rather than the Italian father since it's passed from mother to children. I don't get why the mtDNA female line would be in Italy when the grandmother's mother was from Ireland. I'm just not able to follow this so don't worry if you can't explain it any other way.

Ancestry Results
225 matches up to 6th. Cousin

BowWow wrote: »

Ireland 64%
Great Britain 25%
Scandinavia 5%
Low Confidence Region
Finland/Northwest Russia 3%
Europe East 2%
Europe West <1%

Ulster Irish Community

MyHeritage Results
13 matches up to 5th. Cousin
Irish Scottish & Welsh 78%
English 22%

Has anyone here been contacted by a match on any of the sites without you taking the first step? I'm just curious as I have over 50 2-4th cousin matches on FTDNA and not one has made contact with me. I have contacted 4 on Ancestry and one has replied and we've established the relationship, but not a whisper from the others.

It's a bit disheartening when there is no initial contact from any matches and you have to do all the leg (finger) work.

I've been contacted by the odd match but not many. I've contacted everyone on my first page of matches and I've only gotten a few replies. When I do get a reply, a lot of the time neither of us have common surnames or the other person has only gone back a few generations. It is nice to get a reply all the same because there are some that have loads of information but no tree online. I don't plan to contact anymore unless I get a new close match because the rest are probably all too far out anyway. Although one of my matches was a 5th to 8th cousin and she was actually a third cousin. I could recognise our common ancestors straight away whereas other closer matches I can't identify the connection just by looking at the tree.

I have stopped messaging or emailing any match now because of that very reason...Why am I going to bother wasting my energy writing one,when It's going to be ignored.

I just write a generic message now that I copy and paste. Of course I alter it a bit if I have an idea where the connection might be. I just list out the surnames on my dad and mum's side and give the area where most of my ancestors come from.

I just checked it out. Yes you can contact matches without a subscription but you can't view their public trees. I find the trees useful since there are certain people that I wouldn't have contacted except for that I could see their tree.

The only other exclusive features to a subscription are new ancestor discoveries (never happened for me), DNA circles (have none), shared ancestor hints (2/3 aren't correct), list of surnames in matches' trees and list of birth locations in matches' trees. The only useful features in my case are the public trees, surnames and birth locations.

Wyldwood wrote: »

Has anyone here been contacted by a match on any of the sites without you taking the first step? I'm just curious as I have over 50 2-4th cousin matches on FTDNA and not one has made contact with me. I have contacted 4 on Ancestry and one has replied and we've established the relationship, but not a whisper from the others.

It's a bit disheartening when there is no initial contact from any matches and you have to do all the leg (finger) work.

I'm finding it the same, I've had no matches contact me, I've contacted a few second cousins which proved interesting, one in particular was a lady in the US who had been adopted and had no idea of her fathers identity and we've been able to narrow down the options from my family tree

I had a look on MyHeritage, doing a special delivered for 91 euro

RGM wrote:

I'm confused why anyone would do MyHeritage over one of the others. I'm surprised to see so much talk about it.

Biggest database?

RGM wrote:

Biggest database of what? Not anything related to DNA, which is all that would matter.

Biggest Database as in the most users which will increase your chances of a match?

RGM wrote:

They have the smallest database and it's not close. They are the newest. They also don't offer anything particularly unique (unlike Living DNA). Hence my confusion.

What is your opinion then? Ancestry?

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

What is your opinion then? Ancestry?

It can depend on what exactly you're after and your heritage, but for most Irish people I'd think Ancestry is an easy choice. Largest database by miles. They announced a couple months back that they've topped four million tests sold. Nobody else is in the picture when it comes to that. The value and accuracy of the ethnicity percentages stuff is up for debate, but for better or worse, Ancestry is also the only one of the big three that currently has an Irish category.

I would like to see more people get involved in Y-DNA testing at Family Tree DNA, but that's something else altogether.

spurious wrote: »

FTDNA have a 69 USD offer at the moment.

Regardless of company, most can be uploaded to GEDMatch to compare with others.

True, but database size remains a massive factor because most people do not do that.

On related notes, for Ramadan FTDNA have following sales codes:

New member order of Y-DNA 111 STR's: RAMY2017111 ($60 off -- $299 instead of $359)

BigY order: $150 off: RAMBigY2017 ($425 instead of $575)

In combination with McManus project I've helped sponsor a Connor (american so no O') for BigY. Between donations from McManus BigY testers and the sale we got price down to $225



The cluster of 4 kits on left of that image all share a documented MDKA in late 18th century Georgia in SE USA. The individual was a "patriot" during US revolution. They appear to share two unique mutations new to science that so far are only seen in the descendants of this man who have done BigY.

some of time estimates on this is that the spilt between McManus kits and Connelly kit is on order of 1,000 years before present.

The Connor kit is interesting as he has a genetic distance of 4 at 67 markers with a kit associated with the O'Conor Don lineage. so it will be interesting to see how he fits in this. Within the context of medieval genealogies the McManus family of Connacht are a cadet branch of the O'Connor's of Connacht.

The O'Conor Don lineage been descended from Cathal Crobhdearg Ua Conchobair (King of Connacht), whereas the McManus lineage are suppose to descend from his brother Maghnus Ua Conchobair both sons of Tairrdelbach Ua Conchobair (d. 1156) High-King of Ireland.

dubhthach wrote: »

On related notes, for Ramadan FTDNA have following sales codes:

New member order of Y-DNA 111 STR's: RAMY2017111 ($60 off -- $299 instead of $359)

BigY order: $150 off: RAMBigY2017 ($425 instead of $575)

I would love to get a Y-DNA test done but I find it hard to justify spending such large amounts of money. I wish it was cheaper. Would you recommend getting the Y-DNA 111 rather than the others? Would the other tests not give good enough information and be a waste of money. What I'm saying is you'd be better off saving for the Y-DNA 111 rather than buying the Y-67 or earlier.

I'm a bit confused about the BigY. On the website it says that it's more useful for science than genealogical or ancestry purposes. However, you have shown it to be useful in that regard. Would you recommend the BigY over Y-DNA 111 or would both be recommended? I also can't seem to find BigY on the website. I can only find it in FAQs.

srmf5 wrote: »

I would love to get a Y-DNA test done but I find it hard to justify spending such large amounts of money. I wish it was cheaper. Would you recommend getting the Y-DNA 111 rather than the others? Would the other tests not give good enough information and be a waste of money. What I'm saying is you'd be better off saving for the Y-DNA 111 rather than buying the Y-67 or earlier.

I'm a bit confused about the BigY. On the website it says that it's more useful for science than genealogical or ancestry purposes. However, you have shown it to be useful in that regard. Would you recommend the BigY over Y-DNA 111 or would both be recommended? I also can't seem to find BigY on the website. I can only find it in FAQs.

Well the 111 STR is a superset of 67,37 (and old 25 and 12 STR tests). The specific discount code is for people starting off with 111 STR's which is quite a jump.

Generally what happens is people do entry level test (37 STR's these days) and upgrade subsequently either to narrow down matches etc.

If you have tested with an autosomal company (such as Ancestry) FTDNA often offer a intro pricing where you can transfer your kit and order 12/25 STR's at quite a reduced price (if memory serves me right)

I should also add that they have a Father's day sale on with 37 STR test available for $139: ($30 off)
https://www.familytreedna.com/sale.aspx

With regards to BigY testing, you need to have at least done STR testing before FTDNA will allow you to order it.

I'm going to give a general explanation and I hope it isn't too technical:

STR's are basically points in your genome (in this example on the Y if your a man) where you have repeats of a specific string of "Letters" (nucleobases) over and over. So for example at DYS448 STR you see the value 'AGAGAT' repeated over and over in a string from 17-24 times depending on tester.

When you test enough STR's you can discover "clusters" where certain men have specific value at specific STR. So for example men who have following values are probably R1b-M222+
This "Haplotype" is the one that the Trinity College researchers associated with the historic Uí Néill in paper back in 2006.

When it comes to matching with other men, they compare say results at 37 STR's with their database and spit out a list of men where the distance is up to 4. (eg you only see men who different from you by max of 4 across 37 markers), so for example if you got a 2nd cousin tested as well you'd probably have a distance of 0, unless a mutation occurred on his line.

Anyways with enough STR's tested one can see patterns with regards to surname origin etc.

SNP testing in comparison looks at a specific point on Y-Chromosome and see if you are positive or negative for point. Depending on SNP tested it could be very old one (A259 is on order of 1500 years old) or relatively new (like the two discovered in the SE McManus group -- which probably date to 17-18th century)

In case of BigY the test reads a very large chunk of your Y-Chromosome (on average 5-10million bases). Not only does it check for know/existing SNP's, but it also discovers new ones which could includes mutations that only happened in last 2-5 generations.

To use a hypothetical example if I found a man who was my 6th cousin on my male line (eg. we shared same surname, and direct ancestry to a common great-great-great-great-great-grandfather), if he was also to do BigY testing it would allow me to identify which of my so far unique SNP markers (found nowhere else but in my genome) occurred up to early/mid 19th century, and which occurred later.

To go back to McManus example, it might thus be possible with enough testing to find a SNP mutation that is found in all men bearing a specific lineage all the way back to time surnames arose (leaving aside issues such as adoption, NPE, multiple incidences of same surname arising independently etc.)

The person top of my list on FTDNA is a 2nd cousin once removed that I had traced previously, match says 2nd - 3rd cousin so pretty accurate. on Ancestry, top of the list is a known 2nd cousin which agrees with their estimation of 2nd - 3rd and in the top 4, the other 3 are all traced through paper trails and are 3rd cousins, 3rd - 4th estimated by Ancestry.

Quite reliable I think.

Idle Passerby wrote: »

I've just got results from Living DNA. Apparently the download function isn't up and running with them yet so is there any way I can transfer my results to GEDmatch?

You should now be able to download your results. You can upload the results to Genesis Beta on Gedmatch. The amount of matches won't be as large but Gedmatch are hoping to merge the Gedmatch database and Genesis database in the future.