B&I LIONS vs Blues: Wed @ 08h35

.ak · 07-06-2017 1:02pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Chris Ashton, Andy Farrell, Kyle Eastmond, Ben Te'o, Chris Ashton and world renowned try scoring superstar winger Chris Ashton. All converts, all played in the backs. Not every league player is Brad Thorn!

Sorry I lost you at Chris Ashton.

Catmologen · 07-06-2017 1:04pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Himself and Itoje were ready.

Exactly, was poor judgment imo

sydthebeat · 07-06-2017 1:11pm

Catmologen wrote: »

Exactly, was poor judgment imo

the hooker has players between him and the props.. he cant see them.
he has to assume they are set.. which they were in position for..
it was just sinckler being slow to turn into itoje for the lift.

i think best's judgement was fine imo

irishbucsfan · 07-06-2017 1:11pm

Catmologen wrote: »

Exactly, was poor judgment imo

Best doesn't call the lineouts. Maybe it was poor judgement, but not from Best.

I don't see how the lifters can be excused here. They should have been there ready to go, they were just caught flat-footed. I'd be fairly confident Borthwick will get issues like that sorted though, seems to be very highly rated as a coach.

bilston · 07-06-2017 1:44pm

.ak wrote: »

Rob Howley the biggest villain there.

Too much emphasis on a forwards coaching ticket. Should've got someone external with a good track record of attacking play.

They did try in fairness.

I was watching the behind the scenes programme from 2013 the other night and there is a clip of Howley in a meeting saying that in the warm up games they'd attack off 10 but come the tests they'd play off 9. Attacking off 9 is pretty much how I would define Warrenball (and i realise attacking off 9 doesnt just mean one out runners coming round the corner) Maybe it should really be called Howleyball

penybont exile · 07-06-2017 4:00pm

Game changing moment was the try before half-time ......

Personally I don't think it should have been awarded ..... The Blues player looked to have touched the ball (in addition to the Lions player).

Synode · 07-06-2017 7:04pm

penybont exile wrote: »

Game changing moment was the try before half-time ......

Personally I don't think it should have been awarded ..... The Blues player looked to have touched the ball (in addition to the Lions player).

Agree 100%. Lions didn't deserve to win but can feel hard done by that decision

LDN18 · 07-06-2017 7:29pm

Synode wrote: »

Agree 100%. Lions didn't deserve to win but can feel hard done by that decision

How can I think that was a bad decision???it was a clear cut try!

swiwi_ · 07-06-2017 7:41pm

Well that was fun! That was a pretty intense game, and I thought Itoje was immense for the Lions, but ironically the final line-out was fatal. Best back on display was Ioane and SBW was pretty impressive too.

Ihaia West has a few holes in his game, but speed and a step is not one of them.

Webb was pretty poor for the Lions, kicks were way too long - but not long enough - all game.

I think these first 2 games have made just clear the fallacy of woeful defence in the Super XV - for the NZ teams at least, the defence is just fine. And the ability score out of nothing remains one of the traits of the NZ sides.

Saturday should be immense, the Crusaders pack is quite a bit better than the Blues.

Final word though - that try!

Del.Monte · 07-06-2017 7:46pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvZALBB8u1U

Happy days and all go towards easing the pain of Soldier Field.

awec · 07-06-2017 8:14pm

Don't want to sound like a broken record but that West try is a cracker and there is nobody in this Lions team capable of doing what Luatua, SBW and West did there.

swiwi_ · 07-06-2017 8:18pm

hinault wrote: »

Personally I'm lukewarm about the Lions concept.

Old enough to remember the amateur days, when international games were few and far between and when for the amateur player selection for the Lions allowed them to live as professional players. Tours also involved playing many local matches throughout whatever country was being toured. Access to the players was important,

These days international games are two a penny. The rugby season is far longer. And Lions tours don't visit much of the country where they are touring and they don' play against local teams anymore. Plus it's a money spinner.

I think we would all take the amateur day back - Lions playing the NZ provinces etc. The old days are never coming back though.

We know the game in the north is more and more driven by the English & French clubs, and the SH wishes to create money to to stop those said clubs turning rugby into Manchester United, Chelsea, Man City, Barcelona etc.

It's a good challenge for the Lions, and proving very tough so far.

07-06-2017 8:41pm

awec wrote: »

Don't want to sound like a broken record but that West try is a cracker and there is nobody in this Lions team capable of doing what Luatua, SBW and West did there.

ahem... cough...should have been picked..

https://twitter.com/mikeross03/status/836243552426422272

pickarooney · 07-06-2017 8:48pm

awec wrote: »

Don't want to sound like a broken record but that West try is a cracker and there is nobody in this Lions team capable of doing what Luatua, SBW and West did there.

It's hardly rocket science, in fairness. I see 12 year olds running those kinds of plays. It's the fear of what happens if it doesn't come off that absolutely kills European rugby.

BBDBB · 07-06-2017 8:52pm

pickarooney wrote: »

It's hardly rocket science, in fairness. I see 12 year olds running those kinds of plays. It's the fear of what happens if it doesn't come off that absolutely kills European rugby.

yep, we/coaches made a fork in the road over a decade back in the NH and decided collectively that percentage rugby was the way to minimise risk of losing, athleticism and bulk rather than speed and guile

its only when we come up against the freedom and flair of the NZ sides that it really gets shown just how far behind we are

Yeah_Right · 07-06-2017 8:55pm

swiwi_ wrote: »

Well that was fun! That was a pretty intense game, and I thought Itoje was immense for the Lions, but ironically the final line-out was fatal. Best back on display was Ioane and SBW was pretty impressive too.

Ihaia West has a few holes in his game, but speed and a step is not one of them.

Webb was pretty poor for the Lions, kicks were way too long - but not long enough - all game.

I think these first 2 games have made just clear the fallacy of woeful defence in the Super XV - for the NZ teams at least, the defence is just fine. And the ability score out of nothing remains one of the traits of the NZ sides.

Saturday should be immense, the Crusaders pack is quite a bit better than the Blues.

Final word though - that try!

Swiwi, stop trying to bring the Crusaders into a conversation about the greatest Super Rugby victory in the history of Super Rugby. Just admit that the Blues are awesome and begone with you.

Ps. Thanks for the prematch write up. Can you do another one for Saturday's game?

CatFromHue · 07-06-2017 8:55pm

swiwi_ wrote: »

I think we would all take the amateur day back - Lions playing the NZ provinces etc. The old days are never coming back though.

We know the game in the north is more and more driven by the English & French clubs, and the SH wishes to create money to to stop those said clubs turning rugby into Manchester United, Chelsea, Man City, Barcelona etc.

It's a good challenge for the Lions, and proving very tough so far.

The move to playing the Super teams has made it even tougher. When they were playing the NPC/Currie Cup teams their season hadn't started or had just started. The Blues may be the weakest of the NZ Super teams but they're well bedded into their season which started in Feb/March.

Yourself isit · 07-06-2017 8:58pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvZALBB8u1U

Happy days and all go towards easing the pain of Soldier Field.

Strange hilights. 6 lions points went missing. Also thought the yellow was harsh.

swiwi_ · 07-06-2017 9:03pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Swiwi, stop trying to bring the Crusaders into a conversation about the greatest Super Rugby victory in the history of Super Rugby. Just admit that the Blues are awesome and begone with you.

Ps. Thanks for the prematch write up. Can you do another one for Saturday's game?

Maybe. I actually do have a life outside of rugby - and a job...

I fear if the Crusaders do the business the interest in the lions will melt away to zero. It would be different if Schmidt was in charge, that would hold the interest longer, but Gatland doesn't have the same pull.

It would be nice to see the lions score a backline try. So far it's a Watson catch and run in over 160 minutes of rugby from the backs.

07-06-2017 9:12pm

Yourself isit wrote: »

Strange hilights. 6 lions points went missing. Also thought the yellow was harsh.

You can't be Irish. If there's one thing I've learnt since moving here, is that any penalty should be a yellow, or possibly red.

The yellow was far from harsh, and he should have had another for the same offence a couple of minutes earlier. If you're going to lose a contest in the air, you have a duty to not take the other player out.

laurie88 · 07-06-2017 10:52pm

Synode wrote: »

Agree 100%. Lions didn't deserve to win but can feel hard done by that decision

um ah "%*£bullsh_t!!:

irishman86 · 08-06-2017 11:36am

pickarooney wrote: »

It's hardly rocket science, in fairness. I see 12 year olds running those kinds of plays. It's the fear of what happens if it doesn't come off that absolutely kills European rugby.

Yup its happening even in French rugby now. I did a spot of kids rugby coaching a few years back but couldnt stick it. There was so much screaming about holding the ball. These were 14 year old boys who had parents screaming at them and takes all the fun out of the game. As the season went on they stopped trying to do anything. The second year I put a rule that any parent that screams at the kids would end up with there son getting subbed and it was better. I didnt do a third year as it was to much hassle
Its not a rugby problem only I had the same difficulties with soccer here

awec · 08-06-2017 11:50am

pickarooney wrote: »

It's hardly rocket science, in fairness. I see 12 year olds running those kinds of plays. It's the fear of what happens if it doesn't come off that absolutely kills European rugby.

You might see 12 year olds do it but these guys have that sort of stuff coached out of them by the time they get to play test rugby.

Too dangerous to play in your own half and all that. Offloading is too risky, recycle the ball as fast as you can instead.

The most frustrating thing is this style is usually very successful in the NH. I kind of wish it wasn't. I wish the SH coaches would come up here and change how the game is played instead of playing this stuff, but I appreciate they are brought here, paid a lot and are put under huge pressure to win almost every game with improving the style and skills being a distant second.

phog · 08-06-2017 12:44pm

Downright dumb or understandable? The 13 Lions penalties conceded against the Blues examined

aloooof · 08-06-2017 2:14pm

awec wrote: »

You might see 12 year olds do it but these guys have that sort of stuff coached out of them by the time they get to play test rugby.

Too dangerous to play in your own half and all that. Offloading is too risky, recycle the ball as fast as you can instead.

The most frustrating thing is this style is usually very successful in the NH. I kind of wish it wasn't. I wish the SH coaches would come up here and change how the game is played instead of playing this stuff, but I appreciate they are brought here, paid a lot and are put under huge pressure to win almost every game with improving the style and skills being a distant second.

Hard to disagree with this, but Pat Lam and more recently Wayne Pivac have proved these things are not mutually exclusive and that improving skills may, in fact, be the template for success (in the Pro12 at least).

I accept there's an argument that Connacht and Scarlets had more licence to try this type of rugby, and their lack of end-of-season European action possibly helped their respective Pro12 wins, but I'm hoping this is the start of a more general trend towards more expansive rugby.

molloyjh · 08-06-2017 2:53pm

awec wrote: »

You might see 12 year olds do it but these guys have that sort of stuff coached out of them by the time they get to play test rugby.

Too dangerous to play in your own half and all that. Offloading is too risky, recycle the ball as fast as you can instead.

The most frustrating thing is this style is usually very successful in the NH. I kind of wish it wasn't. I wish the SH coaches would come up here and change how the game is played instead of playing this stuff, but I appreciate they are brought here, paid a lot and are put under huge pressure to win almost every game with improving the style and skills being a distant second.

Well it is a professional sport, so winning is always going to be the priority, no matter the hemisphere.

Also, this whole thing about SH and NH seems a bit disingenuous to me. The Lions aren't playing the SH, they are playing NZ. Do people really think if they were touring Australia or South Africa we'd be seeing the same stuff?

The complaints here seem to be that a team that's only been together a few weeks isn't as good as Kiwi teams that have been together months. And look how they've been going in Super Rugby. It's okay to admit that these guys are just better at playing rugby. It doesn't have to be yet another chance to have a moan about our guys.

Sure we need to review how we play the game to a degree. And we are, in case any of you have missed the numerous changes here in Ireland over the last year or two. But that doesn't just automatically appear in the senior sides straight away. Guys at senior level tend not to offload, not because their senior coach won't allow them to, but because they simply don't have the skill levels generally speaking as it wasn't something they were learning early on. And as research has shown, if you start looking to develop new skill levels beyond the age of around 16 you get decreasing returns from it the later you try to develop them. That's exactly why the onus has changed here in terms of skills development.

But let's not start this NH/SH thing. NZ teams have been spanking teams from other countries all season so far. This isn't a hemisphere issue. It's just a sign of how good NZ are and how far ahead of the general curve they are right now.

Braken · 08-06-2017 4:27pm

awec wrote: »

You might see 12 year olds do it but these guys have that sort of stuff coached out of them by the time they get to play test rugby.

Too dangerous to play in your own half and all that. Offloading is too risky, recycle the ball as fast as you can instead.

The most frustrating thing is this style is usually very successful in the NH. I kind of wish it wasn't. I wish the SH coaches would come up here and change how the game is played instead of playing this stuff, but I appreciate they are brought here, paid a lot and are put under huge pressure to win almost every game with improving the style and skills being a distant second.

Penny tried but didn't last too long

TomsOnTheRoof · 08-06-2017 5:44pm

Braken wrote: »

Penny tried but didn't last too long

Penney tried to implement a 2-4-2 system whereby forwards out wide supply you with quick ruck ball. This was ineffective because, despite fast service, the attacking line was too deep. As such players taking the ball into contact are already behind the gain line thus negating the benefits of fast ruck ball in the first place.

Lam played a 1-3-3-1 system with Connacht. This hinged on pods of forwards taking the ball flat to the gain line and either crashing it up or playing it out the back where the depth of the back line wasn't an issue as the immediate defenders outside of the ruck were drawn in. Lam worked long and hard to up-skill the Connacht pack in order to enable them to play like this.

It's true that Penney was met with some resistance in Munster but the idea that he was some visionary who was branded a heretic by the Munster faithful is a load of rubbish.

LDN18 · 08-06-2017 7:23pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Well it is a professional sport, so winning is always going to be the priority, no matter the hemisphere.

Also, this whole thing about SH and NH seems a bit disingenuous to me. The Lions aren't playing the SH, they are playing NZ. Do people really think if they were touring Australia or South Africa we'd be seeing the same stuff?

The complaints here seem to be that a team that's only been together a few weeks isn't as good as Kiwi teams that have been together months. And look how they've been going in Super Rugby. It's okay to admit that these guys are just better at playing rugby. It doesn't have to be yet another chance to have a moan about our guys.

Sure we need to review how we play the game to a degree. And we are, in case any of you have missed the numerous changes here in Ireland over the last year or two. But that doesn't just automatically appear in the senior sides straight away. Guys at senior level tend not to offload, not because their senior coach won't allow them to, but because they simply don't have the skill levels generally speaking as it wasn't something they were learning early on. And as research has shown, if you start looking to develop new skill levels beyond the age of around 16 you get decreasing returns from it the later you try to develop them. That's exactly why the onus has changed here in terms of skills development.

But let's not start this NH/SH thing. NZ teams have been spanking teams from other countries all season so far. This isn't a hemisphere issue. It's just a sign of how good NZ are and how far ahead of the general curve they are right now.

Yes you would still see it as the golden lions,stormers and even sharks would beat that lions team

Christy42 · 08-06-2017 9:05pm

LDN18 wrote: »

Yes you would still see it as the golden lions,stormers and even sharks would beat that lions team

I would not get on them beating Ireland or England though.

molloyjh · 08-06-2017 9:28pm

LDN18 wrote: »

Yes you would still see it as the golden lions,stormers and even sharks would beat that lions team

Golden Lions? Eh no.

Stormers had over 50 points put on them by both Crusaders and Highlanders this season and over 40 by Hurricanes. So yeah, that sort of proves my point.

When Sharks last played a NZ side they lost 41-0 to Hurricanes.