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Requirement for an Irish Citizen to present a passport

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  • 04-06-2017 10:05pm
    #1
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭


    This post has been deleted.


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    #2
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    What is the actual legal basis for an immigration officer to demand a passport from an Irish Citizen and in particular one arriving from the CTA.

    People are saying that Section 11 of the Immigration Act 2004 applies but if you read it fully there is no requirement to show a passport if coming from the CTA.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/1/section/11/enacted/en/html


    So can anyone give a legal basis why such a demand is lawful?

    You dont have to show a "passport" you can show a garda age card, drivers license etc


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    #3
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #4
    testicles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,198 ✭✭✭testicles


    This post has been deleted.


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    #5
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    But is there even a legal requirement to show anything? That is the question.

    Yes as the immigration officers would be similar to Gardai who have a right to ask you to produce identification confirming you are who you say you. Anybody could just say they are an Irish citizen and officers would just have to believe them without proof if that's the case which we all know won't work.

    If you didn't show something to confirm your nationality as irish then the guards at the airport would have legal recourse to detain you.


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    #6
    Quackster
    Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 5,751 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quackster


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    But is there even a legal requirement to show anything? That is the question.

    I had this argument with a delightful garda after getting of the ferry at Rosslare some years ago as I had no 'acceptable' ID on me.

    After protracted discussions, he eventually relented.


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    #7
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #8
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    I have gotten through Rosslare from France with only a verbal declaration of citizenship.

    Did that verbal declaration get you back? ;-)

    I havemt taken a ferry in a long time so I don't know how that works

    I assume they don't care about people leaving the country but if you want to get on a plane leaving the airline will ask you for I'D to confirm your ticket is yours. Coming home is the same but immigration need you to prove you are Patrick o brien innocent and not Patrick O'Brien the murderer wanted by Interpol


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    #9
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


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    #10
    Mycroft H
    Registered Users Posts: 9,316 ✭✭✭Mycroft H


    The n'gardai were checking cars coming off from Hollyhead. Asked for my nationality and when I said I was Irish, I was waved through. No paperwork

    I don't know why it happens in Dublin Airport. Any airport I've come into from Dublin in the UK doesn't have passport control, they've a dedicated channel for CTA flights which just brings you into arrivals.

    What happens in Shannon/Cork Airport?


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    #11
    hullaballoo
    Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,718 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    "Oim Oirish" is enough in most cases then?


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    #12
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,316 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    hullaballoo wrote: »
    "Oim Oirish" is enough in most cases then?

    Or occasionally "Howya?".


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    #13
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


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    #14
    D0NNELLY
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭D0NNELLY


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    Seems to work grand at Rosslare.

    And Gatwick


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    #15
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,364 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Dublin airport used to filter UK flights so arriving passengers went straight to the baggage hall, they seemingly can't do this anymore.


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    #16
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    coylemj wrote: »
    Dublin airport used to filter UK flights so arriving passengers went straight to the baggage hall, they seemingly can't do this anymore.

    For obvious reasons regarding security and any joa soap flying into the UK and onto Ireland and vice versa.


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    #17
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,439 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    I know there is no way of confirming nationality and proving you're exempt from section 11 without showing documentation, but is this practical requirement enough of a reason to make it an implied legal requirement?


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    #18
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,364 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    lifeandtimes wrote: »
    For obvious reasons regarding security and any joa soap flying into the UK and onto Ireland and vice versa.

    If it's so bleedin 'obvious', why has nobody in the UK ever (in the past 10 years) asked to see my passport (or any form of id) when I fly there from Dublin? Your 'vice versa' doesn't stand up I'm afraid.


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    #19
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,942 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    lifeandtimes wrote: »
    Did that verbal declaration get you back? ;-)

    I havemt taken a ferry in a long time so I don't know how that works

    I assume they don't care about people leaving the country but if you want to get on a plane leaving the airline will ask you for I'D to confirm your ticket is yours. Coming home is the same but immigration need you to prove you are Patrick o brien innocent and not Patrick O'Brien the murderer wanted by Interpol

    Did a day trip to Holyhead a few years ago and to get back into Ireland only had to state nationality. Have gone on a motorbike to France and the UK a few times and have never been asked to remove my helmet. In France they just waved all the bikes past, I had to stop just past to put my passport into a secure pocket.

    Any flight I've gotten into Ireland from the UK the airline barely glanced at my ID


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    #20
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,035 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    I got off an US flight this morning and everybody was stopped by Gardaí at the desk and asked for a passport, even those who filtered through the EU queue in T2. For my sins I got a "Welcome home, Losty and slán leat" from the Garda, which beat the heavy duty pat down that I got Stateside :)


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    #21
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,364 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    I got off an US flight this morning and everybody was stopped by Gardaí at the desk and asked for a passport, even those who filtered through the EU queue in T2.

    I appreciate the friendly welcome you got from the Garda but I don't see the point in your first sentence (above)....

    1. You say that 'everybody' was stopped - why wouldn't they be?

    2. '.... even those who filtered through the EU queue' :confused: How does it matter what queue they entered? Every passport has to be checked coming from the US regardless of what queue people stand in.


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    #22
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,527 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Mycroft H wrote: »
    The n'gardai were checking cars coming off from Hollyhead. Asked for my nationality and when I said I was Irish, I was waved through. No paperwork

    I don't know why it happens in Dublin Airport. Any airport I've come into from Dublin in the UK doesn't have passport control, they've a dedicated channel for CTA flights which just brings you into arrivals.

    What happens in Shannon/Cork Airport?

    Heathrow T5 has it I am pretty sure. I have only ever connected through T5 rather than it being my destination airport but I've always had to go through passport control at the UK border.


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    #23
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,364 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    awec wrote: »
    Heathrow T5 has it I am pretty sure. I have only ever connected through T5 rather than it being my destination airport but I've always had to go through passport control at the UK border.

    In smaller UK airports they often bus you to a domestic arrivals door and in the bigger UK airports there's often a domestic terminal into which they direct the ROI traffic as used to happen at the old T1 in Heathrow.

    I can't remember ever passing through an official passport counter entering the UK from Dublin. It could catch out a lot of people because for example, Aer Lingus will allow you to board a UK flight with almost any form of photo id.


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    #24
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,227 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    awec wrote: »
    Heathrow T5 has it I am pretty sure. I have only ever connected through T5 rather than it being my destination airport but I've always had to go through passport control at the UK border.

    When you connect from a CTA flight at T5, you will have to do a documents check to see that you have the appropriate document for your destination country. When BA CTA flights commenced at T5, they constructed a special walkway to baggage reclaim avoiding the UK Border. No stinting on recognising the need not to impose an unnecessary check! They couldn't simply locate CTA arrivals at the same place as domestic as CTA arrivals still have to pass Customs.

    By contrast, no effort has been made in Dublin for this. At regional airports (e.g. Kerry or Knock), i been asked to provide a passport on arrival even when the only plane is coming from within CTA.


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    #25
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #26
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,227 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I just give them the death stare, my boarding pass etc.

    Realistically, they should admit you without a passport provided they are satisfied that you have arrived from within CTA and are a CTAnational. The layout of Dublin airport is such that an immigration official deciding to be officious can simply throw up strawman arguments that he cannot be satisfied if these items without some form of ID. (S)he might assert that your mobile boarding pass is no evidence of arrival flight while accepting you as a CTA national or (s)he might assert that accent is no evidence of citizenship.

    Sometimes I'm in the mood to argue and other times (generally when it's busy) I don't. I just way they'd sort out the egates.


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    #27
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    My question is therefore is such a demand lawful given Sect 11, 4 of the 2004 act?

    Probably not but in the grand scheme of things it does no harm. If an extremist who was radiclised and was going to the UK for orders to come back to do a terror plot here and was to pass through not asked to show id (meaning he would have been on a watch list)we'd be up in arms about it

    It's am extra safety measure like going to a concert which I'm more than happy to comply with.


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    #28
    CeilingFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭CeilingFly


    coylemj wrote: »
    If it's so bleedin 'obvious', why has nobody in the UK ever (in the past 10 years) asked to see my passport (or any form of id) when I fly there from Dublin? Your 'vice versa' doesn't stand up I'm afraid.

    You enter your passport details on the check-in - this is passed on and checked before you land.


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    #29
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #30
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #31
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,364 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    CeilingFly wrote: »
    You enter your passport details on the check-in - this is passed on and checked before you land.

    That is called Advance Passenger Information (API) and is only required when flying to the US, Spain and Portugal.


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