Requirement for an Irish Citizen to present a passport

Fred Swanson

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lifeandtimes

Fred Swanson wrote: »

What is the actual legal basis for an immigration officer to demand a passport from an Irish Citizen and in particular one arriving from the CTA.

People are saying that Section 11 of the Immigration Act 2004 applies but if you read it fully there is no requirement to show a passport if coming from the CTA.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/1/section/11/enacted/en/html


So can anyone give a legal basis why such a demand is lawful?

You dont have to show a "passport" you can show a garda age card, drivers license etc

Fred Swanson

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testicles

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lifeandtimes

Fred Swanson wrote: »

But is there even a legal requirement to show anything? That is the question.

Yes as the immigration officers would be similar to Gardai who have a right to ask you to produce identification confirming you are who you say you. Anybody could just say they are an Irish citizen and officers would just have to believe them without proof if that's the case which we all know won't work.

If you didn't show something to confirm your nationality as irish then the guards at the airport would have legal recourse to detain you.

Quackster

Fred Swanson wrote: »

But is there even a legal requirement to show anything? That is the question.

I had this argument with a delightful garda after getting of the ferry at Rosslare some years ago as I had no 'acceptable' ID on me.

After protracted discussions, he eventually relented.

Fred Swanson

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lifeandtimes

Fred Swanson wrote: »

I have gotten through Rosslare from France with only a verbal declaration of citizenship.

Did that verbal declaration get you back? ;-)

I havemt taken a ferry in a long time so I don't know how that works

I assume they don't care about people leaving the country but if you want to get on a plane leaving the airline will ask you for I'D to confirm your ticket is yours. Coming home is the same but immigration need you to prove you are Patrick o brien innocent and not Patrick O'Brien the murderer wanted by Interpol

Fred Swanson

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Mycroft H

The n'gardai were checking cars coming off from Hollyhead. Asked for my nationality and when I said I was Irish, I was waved through. No paperwork

I don't know why it happens in Dublin Airport. Any airport I've come into from Dublin in the UK doesn't have passport control, they've a dedicated channel for CTA flights which just brings you into arrivals.

What happens in Shannon/Cork Airport?

hullaballoo

"Oim Oirish" is enough in most cases then?

Victor

hullaballoo wrote: »

"Oim Oirish" is enough in most cases then?

Or occasionally "Howya?".

Fred Swanson

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D0NNELLY

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Seems to work grand at Rosslare.

And Gatwick

coylemj

Dublin airport used to filter UK flights so arriving passengers went straight to the baggage hall, they seemingly can't do this anymore.

lifeandtimes

coylemj wrote: »

Dublin airport used to filter UK flights so arriving passengers went straight to the baggage hall, they seemingly can't do this anymore.

For obvious reasons regarding security and any joa soap flying into the UK and onto Ireland and vice versa.

TheChizler

I know there is no way of confirming nationality and proving you're exempt from section 11 without showing documentation, but is this practical requirement enough of a reason to make it an implied legal requirement?

coylemj

lifeandtimes wrote: »

For obvious reasons regarding security and any joa soap flying into the UK and onto Ireland and vice versa.

If it's so bleedin 'obvious', why has nobody in the UK ever (in the past 10 years) asked to see my passport (or any form of id) when I fly there from Dublin? Your 'vice versa' doesn't stand up I'm afraid.

Del2005

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Did that verbal declaration get you back? ;-)

I havemt taken a ferry in a long time so I don't know how that works

I assume they don't care about people leaving the country but if you want to get on a plane leaving the airline will ask you for I'D to confirm your ticket is yours. Coming home is the same but immigration need you to prove you are Patrick o brien innocent and not Patrick O'Brien the murderer wanted by Interpol

Did a day trip to Holyhead a few years ago and to get back into Ireland only had to state nationality. Have gone on a motorbike to France and the UK a few times and have never been asked to remove my helmet. In France they just waved all the bikes past, I had to stop just past to put my passport into a secure pocket.

Any flight I've gotten into Ireland from the UK the airline barely glanced at my ID

Losty Dublin

I got off an US flight this morning and everybody was stopped by Gardaí at the desk and asked for a passport, even those who filtered through the EU queue in T2. For my sins I got a "Welcome home, Losty and slán leat" from the Garda, which beat the heavy duty pat down that I got Stateside

coylemj

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I got off an US flight this morning and everybody was stopped by Gardaí at the desk and asked for a passport, even those who filtered through the EU queue in T2.

I appreciate the friendly welcome you got from the Garda but I don't see the point in your first sentence (above)....

1. You say that 'everybody' was stopped - why wouldn't they be?

2. '.... even those who filtered through the EU queue' How does it matter what queue they entered? Every passport has to be checked coming from the US regardless of what queue people stand in.

awec

Mycroft H wrote: »

The n'gardai were checking cars coming off from Hollyhead. Asked for my nationality and when I said I was Irish, I was waved through. No paperwork

I don't know why it happens in Dublin Airport. Any airport I've come into from Dublin in the UK doesn't have passport control, they've a dedicated channel for CTA flights which just brings you into arrivals.

What happens in Shannon/Cork Airport?

Heathrow T5 has it I am pretty sure. I have only ever connected through T5 rather than it being my destination airport but I've always had to go through passport control at the UK border.

coylemj

awec wrote: »

Heathrow T5 has it I am pretty sure. I have only ever connected through T5 rather than it being my destination airport but I've always had to go through passport control at the UK border.

In smaller UK airports they often bus you to a domestic arrivals door and in the bigger UK airports there's often a domestic terminal into which they direct the ROI traffic as used to happen at the old T1 in Heathrow.

I can't remember ever passing through an official passport counter entering the UK from Dublin. It could catch out a lot of people because for example, Aer Lingus will allow you to board a UK flight with almost any form of photo id.

Marcusm

awec wrote: »

Heathrow T5 has it I am pretty sure. I have only ever connected through T5 rather than it being my destination airport but I've always had to go through passport control at the UK border.

When you connect from a CTA flight at T5, you will have to do a documents check to see that you have the appropriate document for your destination country. When BA CTA flights commenced at T5, they constructed a special walkway to baggage reclaim avoiding the UK Border. No stinting on recognising the need not to impose an unnecessary check! They couldn't simply locate CTA arrivals at the same place as domestic as CTA arrivals still have to pass Customs.

By contrast, no effort has been made in Dublin for this. At regional airports (e.g. Kerry or Knock), i been asked to provide a passport on arrival even when the only plane is coming from within CTA.

Fred Swanson

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Marcusm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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I just give them the death stare, my boarding pass etc.

Realistically, they should admit you without a passport provided they are satisfied that you have arrived from within CTA and are a CTAnational. The layout of Dublin airport is such that an immigration official deciding to be officious can simply throw up strawman arguments that he cannot be satisfied if these items without some form of ID. (S)he might assert that your mobile boarding pass is no evidence of arrival flight while accepting you as a CTA national or (s)he might assert that accent is no evidence of citizenship.

Sometimes I'm in the mood to argue and other times (generally when it's busy) I don't. I just way they'd sort out the egates.

lifeandtimes

Fred Swanson wrote: »

My question is therefore is such a demand lawful given Sect 11, 4 of the 2004 act?

Probably not but in the grand scheme of things it does no harm. If an extremist who was radiclised and was going to the UK for orders to come back to do a terror plot here and was to pass through not asked to show id (meaning he would have been on a watch list)we'd be up in arms about it

It's am extra safety measure like going to a concert which I'm more than happy to comply with.

CeilingFly

coylemj wrote: »

If it's so bleedin 'obvious', why has nobody in the UK ever (in the past 10 years) asked to see my passport (or any form of id) when I fly there from Dublin? Your 'vice versa' doesn't stand up I'm afraid.

You enter your passport details on the check-in - this is passed on and checked before you land.

Fred Swanson

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Fred Swanson

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coylemj

CeilingFly wrote: »

You enter your passport details on the check-in - this is passed on and checked before you land.

That is called Advance Passenger Information (API) and is only required when flying to the US, Spain and Portugal.

lifeandtimes

Fred Swanson wrote: »

What I have a problem with is being delayed unnecessarily because the DAA/INIS/GNIB cannot sort out CTA arrivals in Dublin.

The question was asked in another thread, if a person from a CTA flight didn't want to be delayed and simply skipped the queue and walked out, would any detention be lawful given there is nothing in the law that requires him to show any ID?

It would be as they have powers under
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/1/section/3/enacted/en/html
"
An immigration officer or a medical inspector appointed under this Act shall have power to enter or board any vessel, and to detain and examine any person arriving at or leaving any port in the State who is reasonably believed by the officer or inspector to be a non-national, and to require the production of a passport or other equivalent identity document by such person, and shall have such other powers and duties as are conferred upon him or her by this Act."

To ask for indentification and especially someone skipping a queue and causing a scene would be asked. Granted you wouldn't be a non national but doing something lile skipping the queue which no body does would give them "a reasonable doubt" to detain you

GM228

I'll attempt to put this to bed for you Fred.

Fred Swanson wrote: »

What is the actual legal basis for an immigration officer to demand a passport from an Irish Citizen and in particular one arriving from the CTA.

People are saying that Section 11 of the Immigration Act 2004 applies but if you read it fully there is no requirement to show a passport if coming from the CTA.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/1/section/11/enacted/en/html

11.—(1) Every person (other than a person under the age of 16 years) landing in the State shall be in possession of a valid passport or other equivalent document, issued by or on behalf of an authority recognised by the Government, which establishes his or her identity and nationality to the satisfaction of an immigration officer.


(2) Every person landing in or embarking from the State shall furnish to an immigration officer such information in such manner as the immigration officer may reasonably require for the purposes of the performance of his or her functions.

(3) A person who contravenes this section shall be guilty of an offence.

(4) This section does not apply to any person (other than a non-national) coming from or embarking for a place in the State, Great Britain or Northern Ireland.

So can anyone give a legal basis why such a demand is lawful?

To answer your question you need to look at other parts of the Immigration Act 2004 (as amended) as well as a few other pieces of legislation, which can be contradictory to S11.


As lifeandtimes has pointed out there is S3 (3) of the 2004 Act which gives a general power to demand a passport or other document from any person believed to be a non-national:-

3 (3) An immigration officer or a medical inspector appointed under this Act shall have power to enter or board any vessel, and to detain and examine any person arriving at or leaving any port in the State who is reasonably believed by the officer or inspector to be a non-national, and to require the production of a passport or other equivalent identity document by such person, and shall have such other powers and duties as are conferred upon him or her by this Act.

The key to S3 (3) is there must be a reasonable belief that someone is a non-national, but what is considered a reasonable belief?

At this point I'll note that a non-national for the purposes of S3 is someone who is not a citizen of the Irish Free State, so the fact that a plane is coming from the UK does raise a very reasonable belief that people on board could well be non-nationals, indeed it's highly likely several arriving are UK and other EU nationals.

Apart from that lets look at S11 itself. The "this section" and "other than a non-national" are the key elements of S11 (4).

Section 11 is in relation to being in posession and subsequently furnishing a valid passport or other document when requested. It simply exempts an Irish citizen from carrying such and presenting such. It specifically does not exempt a non-national.

S11 (4) creates a defence for failing to comply with S11 (2) or S3 (3), but does in no way remove any power for them to make the request in the first place.

The exemption applies only to "this section", meaning an Irish citizen is only exempt from the requirements of S11, it does not exempt them from the powers to ask for a document afforded by S3 (3) used in order to establish if they are a citizen in the first place.

The reality is that S3 (3) and S11 contradict each other. But to add further contradiction is the fact that "non-national" for the purposes of S11 has a different meaning to that of S3.

For S11 a non-national is someone who isn't an "Irish Citizen" (as opposed to a citizen of the Irish Free State), or someone who has established a right to be present under under the European Communities (Aliens) Regulations 1977, the European Communities (Right of Residence for Non-Economically Active Persons) Regulations 1997 or the European Communities (Free Movement of Persons) Regulations 2006 and 2008.

But the odd thing about those regulations which are in accordance with EU law is that any EU/EEA citizen must present a passport in any EU state in order to land and to claim their right to be present, so it defaults back to S3 (3) allowing them to ask for a passport to establish if an Irish citizen or S11 using the various regulations to establish if an EU citizen who are establing their right to be present in Ireland under free movement rules.

Fred Swanson wrote: »

if a person from a CTA flight didn't want to be delayed and simply skipped the queue and walked out, would any detention be lawful given there is nothing in the law that requires him to show any ID?

In light of S3 assuming there is a reasonable belief that the person is a non-national then yes. There simply needs to be a belief they may be a non-national, it does not need to be a correct belief.




Bottom line - the act and related legislation is contradictory and creates ambiguity.



Side bar question, what are the legal implications of S3 in that it is specific to a "citizen of the Irish Free State" as opposed to an "Irish citizen".

They are not quite the same and then there would be issues as to weather someone born in NI (depending on the year) would be considered Irish citizens for the purposes of S11.

Peregrinus

GM228 wrote: »

In light of S3 assuming there is a reasonable belief that the person is a non-national then yes. There simply needs to be a belief they may be a non-national, it does not need to be a correct belief.

But there's a big difference between a reasonable belief that a person is a non-national, and a reasonable belief that they may be a non-national, and s. 53 requires the former, not the latter.

I don't think that the mere fact that someone is attempting to enter Ireland from the UK (or any other country) is enough in itself to create a reasonable belief that they are a non-national; this is something nationals commonly do.

Besides, if that were a legitimate interpretation, then the immigration would have power to ask everyone arriving in the state to produce a passport, and if that were the legislative intention wouldn't the Oireachtas simply have said so? This interpretation effectively deprives the words "who is reasonably believed by the officer or inspector to be a non-national" of any signficance at all, and it's a canon of interpretation that all the words in a statute are there to achieve something.

Carawaystick

This craic was going on when I used to fly to Dublin from Cork. Ground my gears then. taking almost as long to get from my plane to outside the airport as from Cork to Dublin