London terror attack confirmed by Met Police

Samaris · 04-06-2017 02:25PM

Mod Note: ZeroThreat, I have temporarily hidden your post until the video you linked can be reviewed by a mod not currently posting in this thread.

Murrisk · 04-06-2017 02:25PM

123shooter wrote: »

Sorry mate i dont want to be always looking over my shoulder when i go about my daily business or worry about my mrs getting wiped out if she goes shopping.

Do you realise how unlikely that is?

Nabber · 04-06-2017 02:25PM

Internment camps and mass deportation may not work.

The problem is that you try everything else and you are left with only one option.

Eventually the love everyone ideolgy will fade. It will be back to business as usual.
Terror attacks is the worst way to take over a nation. IS should have pay attention to how Germany took over Europe this time

04-06-2017 02:28PM

pangbang wrote: »

Well thought out, agree with a lot of it. But I have a more simplistic stance on these things now.

And there's the problem. A simple stance is an unworkable stance because it's a complicated issue.

Widdershins · 04-06-2017 02:29PM

Deleted User wrote: »

If it makes you feel better:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/21/england-wales-homicides-rise-knife-gun-crime

500 odd murders a year in wales and england.

You'll be fine.

Could people please stop the relativism? It's incredibly tedious having to keep explaining this kind of thing. Most murders are between people known to each other or people with some history of personal conflict.

There's likely to be further attacks and it's sensible for any person to consider whether they want to be in the vicinity when it could happen. Not only for their own safety but for their own comfort. If you're not caught up in an attack you're still going to be inconvenienced and stressed by a city on lockdown. Cut out the ignorant attitude.

People might look to the attacks in MENA countries. If it continues the way it has been going they could start attacking the funerals too. And a lot of other things.

All of my London friends are safe, but I'm trying to convince one of them who has a lot of problems, to stay where he is instead of going back to rough sleeping. I have to pity anyone sleeping rough in London right now.

Really Interested · 04-06-2017 02:30PM

Nabber wrote: »

Internment camps and mass deportation may not work.

The problem is that you try everything else and you are left with only one option.

Eventually the love everyone ideolgy will fade. It will be back to business as usual.
Terror attacks is the worst way to take over a nation. IS should have pay attention to how Germany took over Europe this time

They tried internment under the 2001 act

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2001/24/section/23/enacted

That was repealed in 2005.

Recent legislation has made it easier to exclude even citizens from returning to the UK.

pangbang · 04-06-2017 02:33PM

Deleted User wrote: »

And there's the problem. A simple stance is an unworkable stance because it's a complicated issue.

No, I don't subscribe to that. Simplicity and foundational thinking are always paramount.

If its raining outside you could put on a rain jacket.

Or you could fly fighter jets around the sky the week previous to release chemicals that will ensure it rains beforehand so as there is a better chance that it wont rain today (a la what the Russians did years ago for some commemoration)

One is simple and practical and immediate. The other is expensive, complicated and with no guarantee of success.

When people are being murdered in their own country, I'm all for immediacy and simplicity. THEN...try out other things.

Danzy · 04-06-2017 02:38PM

pangbang wrote: »

No, I don't subscribe to that. Simplicity and foundational thinking are always paramount.

If its raining outside you could put on a rain jacket.

Or you could fly fighter jets around the sky the week previous to release chemicals that will ensure it rains beforehand so as there is a better chance that it wont rain today (a la what the Russians did years ago for some commemoration)

One is simple and practical and immediate. The other is expensive, complicated and with no guarantee of success.

When people are being murdered in their own country, I'm all for immediacy and simplicity. THEN...try out other things.

The problem is that a lot of people do not want to deal with or even admit there is a problem.

It is a complicated and intractable problem at this stage but it will be solved in time.

If the current powers that be refuse to take measures now then people will turn to those who will and none of may like that option.

Phoebas · 04-06-2017 02:39PM

pangbang wrote: »

When people are being murdered in their own country, I'm all for immediacy and simplicity. THEN...try out other things.

What solution would be immediate and simple?

04-06-2017 02:41PM

I fully accept you can't deport British Muslims, up to and including extremists/would-be terrorists. What I don't accept is that they're doing this because "their" countries are being bombed. You can't drape yourself in an IS flag but then hide behind a UK passport... But that's exactly the case.

Danzy · 04-06-2017 02:42PM

Phoebas wrote: »

What solution would be immediate and simple?

Close any Mosque where violence and murder are preached or material advocating such is hosted.

That would mean closing at least a third of Mosques in Britain, which would inflame the situation in other ways but there has to come a time when a line is drawn.

04-06-2017 02:42PM

Widdershins wrote: »

Could people please stop the relativism? It's incredibly tedious having to keep explaining this kind of thing. Most murders are between people known to each other or people with some history of personal conflict.

There's likely to be further attacks and it's sensible for any person to consider whether they want to be in the vicinity when it could happen. Not only for their own safety but for their own comfort. If you're not caught up in an attack you're still going to be inconvenienced and stressed by a city on lockdown. Cut out the ignorant attitude.

People might look to the attacks in MENA countries. If it continues the way it has been going they could start attacking the funerals too. And a lot of other things.

All of my London friends are safe, but I'm trying to convince one of them who has a lot of problems, to stay where he is instead of going back to rough sleeping. I have to pity anyone sleeping rough in London right now.

Ah would you stop with the scare tactics. 8 attacks in 12 years.

The part I don't get is that, the terrorists have won as soon as people are scared. There's no reason to be scared. You may think relativism has nothing to do with this, but last night 7 people were killed, also last night a 17year old was stabbed to death, the 8th victim of knife crime this year.

Who are you more scared of? The nasty terrorists that pop up 8 times out of 12 years, or the knife wielders that don't know, or don't care who they're stabbing, but do it with alarming regularity?

The gas thing is, this will probably play straight into the tories hands. The same party that have cut the police force by 20,000.

Danzy · 04-06-2017 02:43PM

Omackeral wrote: »

I fully accept you can't deport British Muslims, up to and including extremists/would-be terrorists. What I don't accept is that they're doing this because "their" countries are being bombed. You can't drape yourself in an IS flag but then hide behind a UK passport... But that's exactly the case.

and especially when it is often in countries where they have no familial connection bar shared faith.

pangbang · 04-06-2017 02:44PM

Danzy wrote: »

The problem is that a lot of people do not want to deal with or even admit there is a problem.

It is a complicated and intractable problem at this stage but it will be solved in time.

If the current powers that be refuse to take measures now then people will turn to those who will.

I'd say its more that people are AFRAID to admit theres a problem. Although its slipping day by day, there is a still an element of the unspeakable when it comes to this topic of immigration/assimilation, you will be looked down upon as the baddie for questioning anything.

Its only intractable because we allow it to be. As I said above, the sooner we stop twisting ourselves in circles trying to accommodate people that are completely different to us, and start realising that we don't actually have to accommodate them and the inherent problems that come with it....the better!

Killing ourselves with kindness.

Galwayguy35 · 04-06-2017 02:44PM

Samaris wrote: »

Potential routes to solutions (that do not involve the mass deportment/internment/murder of all Muslims, so if that's what you want, skip to the next post, please).

- Vigilance against extremist preaching - which includes removing imams that do preach violence or against the laws of Ireland and encouraging moderate normal preachers to replace them. Merely shutting down/demolishing all mosques just leads to underground preaching that will probably be more radical than it would have been otherwise, since only those already more hardline are likely to risk continued preaching under the threat of martyrism. Didn't work with the Catholics of England, unlikely to work in modern Ireland.

- Deporting/imprisonment for those actively engaged in radicalisation: Tbh, I prefer imprisonment and potentially de-brainwashing, which may or may not be possible. I've argued before that deporting does solve the immediate issue, but I'm not mad keen on sending a potential jihadist off to another country to join ISIS and be an active participant. Why give them soldiers? But anyway, that's a debatable one, just NIMBYism is dodgy in a globally-linked world.

- Enough with the "soil of the first country" thing for refugees. It's overloading countries on the borders of the Med, including Greece which just plain can't cope. The burden should be spread more evenly. Otherwise, you can't integrate people, only hold them indefinitely. They cannot contribute, they see their own lives and those of their children put on hold for months at best, years at worst. We can't just box up a load of traumatised people forever and expect them to get on with things and it is entirely unfair on struggling economies. If the UK are bitching about migrants, imagine how Greece feels! This solution is so far only making things worse for everyone involved, bar the northernmost countries who are insisting that the south copes with the majority of the problem. It also bangs up a large group of ordinary people with perhaps the odd few with a predisposition to radicalism and leaves them feed on the desperate and bored (Boredom might sound a very minor complaint, but people who have been interned, even in the Nazi or Japanese WW2 camps have talked about how boredom was one of the worst aspects, even more so than the violence and fear in the long term).

- Programs for newly arrived migrants. This would include gradual integration, language learning and where conflicts between personal faith and the law of the country may arise. The law of the country -must- outweigh personal considerations influenced by faith. It would also include paths towards employment (people integrate a lot better if they have something to do in the public sphere, and isn't one of the complaints that immigrants drain our resources? Let's let them create resources then.) And counselling for those who have come from places where they have been exposed to traumatic violence, had family or friends murdered, have lived under the fear of murder. This must also emphasise that in Ireland/given European country, the rights of women are held at the same standards as the rights of men, and the rights of homosexual people are just as important as the rights of heterosexual people. Breaking these laws is a crime.

- Absolutely discourage vigilantism, both nativistic and Sharia patrolling. Both of these should be criminal if they impact people innocently walking down the street. No-one should be accosted for the "crime" of just being there. And clamping down on revenge attacks against Muslims (which absolutely do happen) reduces the feeling of -need- for such patrols. Same goes for out and out hate speech, from either side.

- Controls on migration - I absolutely believe that we have a human duty to protect those who are fleeing oppression and murder. We can reduce so-called "economic migrants" (although I suspect some do use the term way too loosely) in favour of those desperately in need of asylum, but we should be cautious about over-controlling it, as Britain may well find out in the next couple of years as their industries that depend on economic migration struggle. There is a balance to be struck, and neither unrestricted migration nor a complete ban is the way to do it.

- Increase the police force and the intelligence services and ensure they can work freely with those of neighbouring countries to share intel and report/contain jihadist movement or potential bombs. May be difficult to do that with the US at the moment, all things considered, but European and Middle Eastern countries whose leaderships are untainted by ISIL propaganda.

- Integrate children of refugees through schooling. We may need to sort out some of our own religious issues around schooling while doing that, mind you. For god's sake, don't poison the minds of our own children against eleven-year-old Muhammad or Aamirah. Children can be cruel and if they pick up from their parents that Muslims are to be hated and reviled, those kids will not be allowed to integrate and we will end up with social misfits who feel they will never be treated with anything but suspicion and contempt. There's your potential jihadist, same as your potential school shooter.

- And the hardest one, solving the Middle East so people don't have to flee for their lives. I don't even have a starting place there, although I see another migration crisis soon to result from the absolutely shameful bombing tactics going on in Yemen, powered by the Saudis, supported by the US and the UK and ignored by the rest of the world.

None of these will solve everything in the get-go. This is not a problem that can be solved by one sweeping answer. I don't have one and frankly, nor does anyone else. Anyone that claims they have is either lying or Katie Hopkins (see lying).

Yes, it will take money. But overall, probably less money (and cruelty) than attempting to eradicate an entire sector of Irish society, be it by deporting, murder or internship. I'm sure there's holes to pick with every single point I've made, but I think they are decent starting places, even if the details would need more hammering out.

I prefer the Hungarian way of doing things, put up a good fence and keep them out.

We agreed to take in thousands when all we were asked to take in by the EU was a couple of hundred which was enough for a small country.

And that's not even taking into consideration the 200 from Calais Zappone has landed us with.

This is all going to lead to trouble down the road, leftie policies don't work.

Just look at Germany and Sweden, they didn't bomb anyone which is the leftie agrument for these attacks and we know what happened there only in the last 2 years since they let them all in.

Biggest lickspittle on boardz · 04-06-2017 02:45PM

This whole tolerance and acceptance shyteology is cringeworthy, tbh. There is a fundamental problem with Islam. I know it, you know it, and the bloody (haram) dogs in the street know it. This sums it up nicely:

04-06-2017 02:46PM

Danzy wrote: »

Close any Mosque where violence and murder are preached or material advocating such is hosted.

That would mean closing at least a third of Mosques in Britain, which would inflame the situation in other ways but there has to come a time when a line is drawn.

Well done. Not exactly "immediate and simple" then, is it?

Phoebas · 04-06-2017 02:47PM

Danzy wrote: »

Close any Mosque where violence and murder are preached or material advocating such is hosted.

That would mean closing at least a third of Mosques in Britain, which would inflame the situation in other ways but there has to come a time when a line is drawn.

That sounds like it could be immediate and its certainly simplistic, but I'm struggling to understand how it is a solution. You admit that, far from it being a solution, it would inflame the situation.
It sounds more like 'we have to do something, anything at all'.

njs030 · 04-06-2017 02:48PM

Really Interested wrote: »

They tried internment under the 2001 act

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2001/24/section/23/enacted

That was repealed in 2005.

Recent legislation has made it easier to exclude even citizens from returning to the UK.

You keep saying this while ignoring that it's only a temporary exclusion for a maximum 2 years and is ONLY to be used as a last resort if the person refuses other alternatives like reporting to a police station, not using the internet etc.

It's been used once in the 2 years it was made law because the lesser sanctions work better.

Danzy · 04-06-2017 02:48PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah would you stop with the scare tactics. 8 attacks in 12 years.

The part I don't get is that, the terrorists have won as soon as people are scared. There's no reason to be scared. You may think relativism has nothing to do with this, but last night 7 people were killed, also last night a 17year old was stabbed to death, the 8th victim of knife crime this year.

Who are you more scared of? The nasty terrorists that pop up 8 times out of 12 years, or the knife wielders that don't know, or don't care who they're stabbing, but do it with alarming regularity?

The gas thing is, this will probably play straight into the tories hands. The same party that have cut the police force by 20,000.

Labour played in to the Tories hands on this as well over the years.

No one forced Andy Burnham or Siddiq Khan to take the views that they have on the Prevent Strategy.

No one forced Labour MPs to speak at gender segregated meetings. No one forced the Labour Membership to not call for the expulsion of those MPs from the party.

No one forced Ken Livingstone to meet Yusul Al Qaradawi, probably the most famous Sunni Scholar in the world and a man whose views are as violent and evil and bigoted as the most froth at the mouth Neo Nazi.

and on and on and on.

pangbang · 04-06-2017 02:49PM

Phoebas wrote: »

What solution would be immediate and simple?

Go back and read through this thread, you'll see plenty of things I suggest, as well as others suggestions.

What you will also find is a complete lack of counterpoint or counteraction beyond "keep doing the same things" from the other side.

wonderfullife · 04-06-2017 02:49PM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Why would a person associate regularly with an Islamic extremist?

If one of my mates started to sell drugs or become involved in threatening criminality, guess what? I wouldn't associate with them.

That's your logic for arresting/imprisoning/deporting people? That they 'associate regularly' with an Islamic extremist?

Number 1 - It makes the assumption they know the person is about to commit a violent act. It's one thing if a person hates Manchester United and another if the person wants to plant a bomb outside Old Trafford. Knowing they hate something is not a crime.

Number 2 - Very noble attitude but half of Crumlin personally know a drug dealer and wouldn't cross the road to avoid them or walk out of a pub.

You want people to be guilty by association carte-blanche.

Romantic Rose wrote: »

The more I meet people from Muslim backgrounds, the more I believe their religion is completely backward. Their beliefs are just too extreme for us. Why they are so easily influenced is beyond me.

Most of us in this country are raised to believe a man was born a few thousand years ago, walked on water, healed the sick, turned water into wine, returned from the dead, that we're not supposed to have sex before marriage, that abortion and suicide are awful sins and that being gay is not ok.

But yeah *their religion* is far too extreme compared to the one we're raised in...

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Then lock them up.

I'm sorry but repeatedly saying 'it's not possible to do x because of y' just doesn't cut it when innocent people being maimed and killed every other week.

You've said 6 times in this thread "lock them up".

We already live in a country where we do lock up people found guilty of a crime in a court of law. I'm proud to live in a country like that.

I've lived in the past in Battersea, Earlsfield and Clapham and I love London. I'm proud they have laws there too.

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

Shame we don't get to see the foiled or plotted attacks for a more accurate assessment.

That's the most twisted argument I've ever read.

You're saying to get accurate assessments of threats of criminality we need to see failed and aborted incidents?

First of all, almost impossible.
Second of all, what!?

It's like saying we'll only get to understand the problem of robbery in this country if we get to see how many people planned to rob a sliced pan in Tesco before being put off by a security guard.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I understand your feelings, I really do but I don't think conceding defeat to these maniacs like that is good enough.

Why can't we get tough on them, why can't we lock them up or send them back where they want to be?

Conceding defeat like bombing the hell out of ISIS targets literally daily?

We can't lock people up who have committed no crime. Well, we can, but it has never worked anywhere it's been attempted and most of us don't want to live in a country where the police can lock you up without trial.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Internment would be one solution yes, if you are investigated and genuinely considered a threat.

So you're now inventing a crime of "I might do something bad in the future but I might not"?

It's not far off saying let's investigate all alcoholics with cars, if it's deemed they might drive drunk then lock them up without trial.

pangbang wrote: »

Tolerance and kind-heartedness started this ball rolling, offering our countries up to whoever wanted to come here.

Is it a nice thing? Nope. Is it the inevitable result of being told what to think, say and do for years and years while you watch your own country slip away? You betcha!

Tolerance and kind-heartedness is why we have nearly 70 million Irish diaspora around the world between famines and recessions. Thank f**k they weren't as intolerant as you and let us in.

We opened our doors after the Ethiopian famine and our doors should be open to Syrians too.

wandererz wrote: »

This applies to every religion, not just to Islam.
But at this point in time, particularly to Islam because that's where the problem lies and is eminating from.

You can't ban religions. What you can do is improve education. People tend to move away from religion and towards secularisation through education.

I get everyone on this thread is frustrated by the events of last night and last week. I get you all think anybody not ranting and raving about Islam is "part of the problem".

Islam isn't the problem.

If someone is hell-bent on killing others, they will twist Harry Potter or the Lord of the Rings into extremist ideology to give themselves cover to do so.

Roger Hassenforder · 04-06-2017 02:50PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ah would you stop with the scare tactics. 8 attacks in 12 years.

The part I don't get is that, the terrorists have won as soon as people are scared. There's no reason to be scared. You may think relativism has nothing to do with this, but last night 7 people were killed, also last night a 17year old was stabbed to death, the 8th victim of knife crime this year.

Who are you more scared of? The nasty terrorists that pop up 8 times out of 12 years, or the knife wielders that don't know, or don't care who they're stabbing, but do it with alarming regularity?

The gas thing is, this will probably play straight into the tories hands. The same party that have cut the police force by 20,000.

"8 attacks on 12 years" but
3 attacks since 22/03/17 on unarmed people going about their business-
34 dead not including the perps.

The "gas" thing is people like you still don't think there's a problem and seek to either diminish or deflect.

Biggest lickspittle on boardz · 04-06-2017 02:51PM

Nabber wrote: »

Internment camps and mass deportation may not work.

The problem is that you try everything else and you are left with only one option.

Eventually the love everyone ideolgy will fade. It will be back to business as usual.
Terror attacks is the worst way to take over a nation. IS should have pay attention to how Germany took over Europe this time

There is only one direction this problem is heading. And that's direct, sectarian, civil war in the UK within a decade. One poster already suggested that there will be working class militia units soon. This is probably very likely to happen, unfortunately. And that will mean the likes of the BNP and EDL targeting Muslims indiscriminately. This is the reality of the situation. It is going to get very, very, very ugly soon.

Things are already at boiling point. What a God awful mess. I'm glad I don't have kids is all I can say.

Trump_Wall · 04-06-2017 02:53PM

A modest proposal -

We should have an army of undercover Muslims reporting to government authorities what is preached at their mosques. Gather evidence and charge/close down mosque/school accordingly.

Radicalization is also rampant in prisons. Due consideration should be taken here to eliminate this immediate threat source.

Don't permit Muslims who have fought in Syria-Iraq-Libya etc. from returning to the UK. If they do, we should either deport them immediately or imprison them indefinitely.

Muslims with active evidential-based links to ISIS should be put before a jury and incarcerated if found guilty. They're facilitating an organization that threatens the UK state.

Restrict mass Islamic immigration. Close down faith schools and have children of all faiths share and have direct exposure to common UK education and values.

Phoebas · 04-06-2017 02:54PM

pangbang wrote: »

Go back and read through this thread, you'll see plenty of things I suggest, as well as others suggestions.

What you will also find is a complete lack of counterpoint or counteraction beyond "keep doing the same things" from the other side.

I don't see anything proposed that would be simple and immediate and a solution.
I think that the idea that there is a silver bullet for this is far too simplistic.

04-06-2017 02:55PM

Jimmy_Russell wrote: »

Once again innocent muslims will bear the brunt of this, they will be met with suspicion ad scrutiny now, in many ways Islam is the biggest victim of all this. We cant dwell on the past we need to move on already europe needs to learn to live with these unfortunate incidents and put these unfortunate events behind us otherwise we are playing into the hands of nazi’s like trump and farage

Jimmy also posts on Broadsheet. Obviously it's a parody account but in some instances, he gets it 100% right - there are people who think and speak like those he is lampooning.
Deflect, what about, X kills more etc

Widdershins · 04-06-2017 02:57PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

If these people are known to police for involvement in extremism then yes they should be deported. They are clearly dangerous individuals or they would not be being watched.

As for the home grown terrorists, I did in fact say that they should be sent back to any one of the many conservative Muslim countries in Middle East, they are the kind of places they want to live in after all.

There are 57 countries they'd feel at home in. If they resent the way of life in an EU country or Britain, they should get out.

Danzy · 04-06-2017 02:57PM

Phoebas wrote: »

That sounds like it could be immediate and its certainly simplistic, but I'm struggling to understand how it is a solution. You admit that, far from it being a solution, it would inflame the situation.
It sounds more like 'we have to do something, anything at all'.

I don't see why publicly calling for the murder of people because they are gays or Jewish is tolerable? It may be simplistic but it is the right thing to do.

It is tolerated and I think it should not be, especially when there is a militant problem in many of those listening and preaching these views.

To many on the Left today, that is the same as if I had a Fascist tattoo.

It may inflame the situation now but this is a rapidly growing problem.

I'm struggling to understand your view.

I presume that if Nick Griffin called for Gays to be stoned to death to several thousand people that you would call for his jailing, yet you are struggling to comprehend this.

Do you or do you not believe that those who advocate in public the murder of Gays or Jews need to be stopped and held accountable, without fear or favour.

It is that simple and you need to consider where you stand on it, leaving out the "but"

pangbang · 04-06-2017 02:59PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah would you stop with the scare tactics. 8 attacks in 12 years.

The part I don't get is that, the terrorists have won as soon as people are scared. There's no reason to be scared. You may think relativism has nothing to do with this, but last night 7 people were killed, also last night a 17year old was stabbed to death, the 8th victim of knife crime this year.

Who are you more scared of? The nasty terrorists that pop up 8 times out of 12 years, or the knife wielders that don't know, or don't care who they're stabbing, but do it with alarming regularity?

The gas thing is, this will probably play straight into the tories hands. The same party that have cut the police force by 20,000.

So its the cliché of "don't be fearful or the terrorists win". The obvious extension to that cliché is that we should continue plodding along without any reaction. That's no good.

The second part of what you say is entirely whataboutism. "Other people die, so whats the problem with more people dying". That's no good either.

Put the two of those things together, and we have our current society. And no solution. Worse than that, it is defeatist and allows this kind of thing to continue happening ad infinitum. It is an indoctrination to get people to just "accept" it, "oh sure, that's life for you, twiddly dee".

I mean, whats the end goal with that line of thinking? It'll all magically stop next year? 10 years from now? When more and more arrive and set up shop, this type of thing will DEcrease?

London terror attack confirmed by Met Police

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