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London terror attack confirmed by Met Police

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Comments

  • #1142
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,063 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Samaris wrote: »
    Just to be clear, are you saying that this is going to happen anyway, or are you advocating it should happen by suddenly turning on the Muslim community in Ireland, breaking up families (although I suppose you could kindly deport the evil Muslim's Irish husband or wife and any children), deporting innocent people, rendering Irish-born children wards of the state (or casting them out to countries where they don't belong and may be in danger), etc, etc. Maybe some old internship while they wait to have their fates decided as sure you can't have rogue Muslims running around the place. (And of course some signs up saying "HAVE YOU SEEN THIS MUSLIM? Report all Muslims to the Gardai immediately")

    Because that will indeed be an excellent way to rouse fury and fear in a whole sector of people and give their children plenty of reason to be sucked into the ISIS bullsh*t.

    All in all, I can't offhand think of a better short-term way to introduce trouble here. ISIS would be delighted.

    (By the way, how young is too young for family members of IRA dissidents to be interned? 13? 10? 5? Do we intern the babies too? Or do they get made wards of the state while we intern their families? Do the children get released when they become adults or is it better to just leave them to rot, just in case they've genetically inherited IRA-ness? Do they get put in with the Muslim families too while they await deporting or do we build separate internment facilities? How do you reckon children of the interned will feel, growing up and knowing that they have no blood family because their entirely innocent parents were imprisoned by the State because their mother's brother was suspected of IRA involvement? Do you reckon that will make them more or less inclined to grow up as ordinary Irish citizens or that such an experience might warp their views somewhat? Do you remember how public opinion reacted to the hunger strikes? And those were the actually guilty ones.)

    In short, your proposals are draconian, foolish and counter-productive. And they will not work.

    Well the current immigration policy isn't working, we can see from other countries in Europe what the results of mass immigration from toxic Islamist regions is doing. How is repeating their mistakes going to lead anywhere but recreating these problems on our own streets? Why are we doubling down on a policy we already know is a failed one? What solutions do you have to offer?

    This joker up in court in Cork last week is a prime example of the very first people that need to be booted out of the country quick smart!

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/man-who-allegedly-told-french-housemates-that-isis-attacks-were-excellent-charged-with-threatening-to-kill-35224610.html


    A man who is alleged to have suddenly started behaving erratically and warned two French housemates that the recent ISIS terror attacks in France were "excellent" was remanded in custody.

    Cork District Court heard that Shmael Heirouche (39) is also alleged to have said that if he had a sword he would cut the heads off Jews.


  • #1143
    Beyondgone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭Beyondgone


    Samaris wrote: »
    I for one have no issues with talking about the major cultural problems with many forms of Islam. Because there are a good few big issues that don't fold well into our general "western" societies. We tamed Christianity and the same will have to happen with Islam, because our drive is overall towards secularism. That is our choice.

    I object to islamaphobic idiocy like the last post I responded to, which is counter-productive, rather cowardly, downright -wrong- and absolutely going to bring exactly the trouble we don't want on us for no reason other than panicked knee-jerk reactionism.

    The only way Islam has ever been "Tamed" was by Hardline Dictators like Hussein and Quaddafi. I can't see a Quaddafi getting into power in any Western nation, so I doubt the "Taming" route will work either. My answer? I've none. Not a clue. I think events like last nights are going to become the new normal and people are going to have to accept that. Whether they will accept that is another question, but I'm guessing they have no option but to. It's either a hardline Police State or do the best you can. I can't see a middle ground.


  • #1144
    Hank Scorpio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,631 ✭✭✭✭Hank Scorpio


    Samaris wrote: »
    I object to islamaphobic idiocy like the last post I responded to, which is counter-productive, rather cowardly, downright -wrong- and absolutely going to bring exactly the trouble we don't want on us for no reason other than panicked knee-jerk reactionism.

    While I don't agree with the post you're referring to, a phobia is an irrational fear of something. Islamaphobia in my opinion is a buzzword used to shut down credible arguments talking about it in a negative light.


  • #1145
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    awec wrote: »
    Indeed, mass internment has always shown very positive results in the past.

    Irish people who think internment is the solution never cease to amaze me given what happened here in the 70s.

    But it's a "minority" of Muslims, so surely the majority would appreciate the ones dragging their faith through the mud being interred??


  • #1146
    FTA69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    I wouldn't even say immigration is the issue per se. Muslims have been coming to the UK for seventy odd years and this sort of stuff is a new phenomenon. Likewise a lot of these attacks have been perpetrated by British converts to Islam including one of the attackers in 7/7, the guy at Westminster and Lee Rigby. There have also been more than a few white British converts involved in that scene too like.

    The problem is largely one of radicalisation amongst a tiny section of British Muslims and it beats me as to how you address that. The notion of hordes of foreign attackers streaming into Britain isn't the problem here. And talk of deportations and shutting the door etc will achieve nothing.

    You could bar every immigrant from ever coming here ever again and you'd still have exactly the same problem - namely some fella with Jamaican or British parents who goes completely postal and decides to kill someone with a van.


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  • #1147
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    Conservative wrote:
    Did they remove your brain beforehand?


    Pithy. You have an older sister writing these zingers for you?


  • #1148
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Hank Scorpio wrote: »
    Choice?

    Yes. I get that you might find it difficult to wrap your head around why anyone would choose something that places unusual restrictions on them, but certainly in Ireland or the UK, it is a choice.
    There are certainly societal pressures on them, just like there are societal pressures on the rest of us, but it s a choice.

    Just like it was a choice of the terrorists last night to carry out their attack.


  • #1149
    Samaris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    conorhal wrote: »
    Well the current immigration policy isn't working, we can see from other countries in Europe what the results of mass immigration from toxic Islamist regions is doing. How is repeating their mistakes going to lead anywhere but recreating these problems on our own streets? Why are we doubling down on a policy we already know is a failed one? What solutions do you have to offer?

    This joker up in court in Cork last week is a prime example of the very first people that need to be booted out of the country quick smart!

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/man-who-allegedly-told-french-housemates-that-isis-attacks-were-excellent-charged-with-threatening-to-kill-35224610.html

    My solution certainly doesn't include internment and deporting of innocent people! Why on earth would you replace even a doomed policy with a bat**** crazy doomed policy?

    The guy you linked to needs to be imprisoned and get his head sorted out. Deporting is another possibility, but overall, I'd prefer not to just shove the problem off onto another country where he'll continue to spiral down until he actually commits an atrocity. But he actually committed a crime, or at least expressed intent to do so. That is actually a punishable offence as opposed to "Living in Ireland while being Muslim" which isn't actually a crime, as much as people want it to be.


  • #1150
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 12,762 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Tomatoheadfred wrote: »
    "Islamophobes"

    Atheists must speak out more against Islam as the oppressive political and social set of beliefs and practices. Muslims represent 1/5th of the world's population but account for more than 2/3rds of the world's terrorism (National Counterterrorism Center). We must examine the world view that binds all Muslims together and that is Islam.

    It's not Islamophobic to critique, debate and satirise Islam. No religion should be above criticism but unfortunately Islam has been given that status. If someone criticises Catholicism and its hardcore adherents, are they "Catholicophobic?" Of course not. The term Islamophobia is used to silence critics.



    Just regarding the bold point.

    Terrorism is classed in the dictionary as:
    "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."

    Now, tell me. When the US and Western forces bomb the bejaysis out of the Middle East, if its not terrorism for the people that live there, what is it?

    Because what the west has done to the middle east is far far far worse than any atrocity they have performed over here.


  • #1151
    gizmo81
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭gizmo81


    This is not a political war, it's a cultural war.

    What did Sweden do to warrant their recent attack?

    Deleted User wrote: »
    Just regarding the bold point.

    Terrorism is classed in the dictionary as:
    "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."

    Now, tell me. When the US and Western forces bomb the bejaysis out of the Middle East, if its not terrorism for the people that live there, what is it?

    Because what the west has done to the middle east is far far far worse than any atrocity they have performed over here.


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  • #1152
    K.Flyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    Dude89 wrote: »
    Can anyone explain why there is a rapidly growing
    Muslim population in this country? They obviously
    see Ireland as a better proposition than Britain
    and the"Holy Land".

    When I hear this question it makes me think back to what Ali Selim, who is the right hand man of the chief Imam in the Clonskeagh Mosque and their general spokesperson, said about hopefully one day having Sharia Law in Ireland..
    Maybe thats their plan.


  • #1153
    Christy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,106 ✭✭✭Christy42


    Sand wrote: »
    Do I think 3 angry men could get their hands on knives and a van without a donation from abroad? Yes, I do. The price of carrying out a terrorist attack is a few hundred Euro.

    ISIS is just the current flagship. Before it was Al-Queda. Before that it was a whole host of regional terrorist groupings. Behind it all is 60-70 years jihadist ideology originating in Egypt and spread by Saudi Arabia. All it requires to access it is a social media account.

    Cut off ISIS funding - this is completely agreed. But don't expect it to have any real effect on terrorist attacks in Europe. Even if ISIS is destroyed, another group or organisation will arise over time. The real problem is the ideology and Saudi Arabia.



    Depends on who you mean by 'we'. There was millions flooding into Europe completely uncontrolled until a revolt by the voters forced their leaders to adjust course. There is still hundreds of thousands expected to cross the Med this year.

    The reaction to this from political leaders has been to try and normalise it, rather than prevent it with extensive efforts from the great and the good to encourage an open borders migration on the basis that migration is always good, even when it is not.

    As you say spread by Saudi Arabia. Sure someone could the equipment for an attack cheaply but I don't think they would without someone spreading the message.

    I also think you are underestimating what Saudi have put in to this and have to keep putting into this. Defeat ISIS and another will be funded. Stop the funding.

    Maybe I am wrong- we are agreed on cutting off funding at least and I can't see the future but I really think it would curb this.


  • #1154
    DeanAustin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,885 ✭✭✭DeanAustin


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Just regarding the bold point.

    Terrorism is classed in the dictionary as:
    "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."

    Now, tell me. When the US and Western forces bomb the bejaysis out of the Middle East, if its not terrorism for the people that live there, what is it?

    Because what the west has done to the middle east is far far far worse than any atrocity they have performed over here.

    I agree with your point to an extent but I'm sure the west would counter-argue that they don't deliberately target civilians.


  • #1155
    Beyondgone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭Beyondgone


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Just regarding the bold point.

    Terrorism is classed in the dictionary as:
    "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."

    Now, tell me. When the US and Western forces bomb the bejaysis out of the Middle East, if its not terrorism for the people that live there, what is it?

    Because what the west has done to the middle east is far far far worse than any atrocity they have performed over here.

    Yup. Pretty much. Sow the storm, reap the hurricane or some such. The West chose to "meddle with extreme violence" in the ME and now the chickens are coming home to roost. It's pointless arguing otherwise. Those Policies might work if you didn't have thousands of those same people living among you, but that isn't reality, so it's moot. The day to day reality in the ME is of extreme violence of one sort or another. But when that then spills over and flows back into the nice peaceful West, we act surprised and outraged. Odd, really.


  • #1156
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    Some posters have really shown their true colours on this thread.


  • #1157
    jackboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,047 ✭✭✭jackboy


    Phoebas wrote: »
    A lot of people who clearly antagonist towards Muslims pretend to know a lot about their thought processes.

    Well my point is that religious indoctrination controls people's thought processes. The objective of this is to remove choice. We had that in Ireland for decades.


  • #1158
    Allah snackbar
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 161 ✭✭Allah snackbar


    bodice ripper wrote: »
    Or indeed rabid islamophobes. Life is full of assholes unfortunately.

    You're right there , people who see nothing wrong with shooting bombing and murdering innocent people because of their liberal western ways , I don't see too many Islamopbobes only people concerned about the rampant extremism invading from the middle East


  • #1159
    crashadder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 137 ✭✭crashadder


    I am a principal software engineer with a masters degree who holds a critical skills employment permit in Ireland. I am Turkish but i am an atheist like tens of thousands if not more in Turkey . So do you think i should leave your country and go back to where i came from ? i come from a muslim country after all :-).


  • #1160
    Hank Scorpio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,631 ✭✭✭✭Hank Scorpio


    Phoebas wrote: »
    but certainly in Ireland or the UK, it is a choice.

    Thought you were referring to Islam and Women as a whole.

    I wouldn't say it's all roses and flowers in the UK either though.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34357047

    "And among some of Britain's urban Muslims - nearly half of whom were born in the UK and are under 24 - there's a belief that leaving Islam is a sin and can even be punished by death.
    An investigation for the BBC has found evidence of young people suffering threats, intimidation, being ostracised by their communities and, in some cases, encountering serious physical abuse when they told their families they were no longer Muslims."


  • #1161
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,063 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Samaris wrote: »
    My solution certainly doesn't include internment and deporting of innocent people! Why on earth would you replace even a doomed policy with a bat**** crazy doomed policy?

    The guy you linked to needs to be imprisoned and get his head sorted out. Deporting is another possibility, but overall, I'd prefer not to just shove the problem off onto another country where he'll continue to spiral down until he actually commits an atrocity. But he actually committed a crime, or at least expressed intent to do so. That is actually a punishable offence as opposed to "Living in Ireland while being Muslim" which isn't actually a crime, as much as people want it to be.

    So even this guy you wouldn't favor deporting? Why is deporting him back to where he came from making him some other countries problem? He'd be deported back to where he came from because he's a problem for this country.

    Deportation may not be 'part of your solution', but I'm still waiting for an idea of what your solution might be.


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  • #1162
    Samaris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    Beyondgone wrote: »
    The only way Islam has ever been "Tamed" was by Hardline Dictators like Hussein and Quaddafi. I can't see a Quaddafi getting into power in any Western nation, so I doubt the "Taming" route will work either. My answer? I've none. Not a clue. I think events like last nights are going to become the new normal and people are going to have to accept that. Whether they will accept that is another question, but I'm guessing they have no option but to. It's either a hardline Police State or do the best you can. I can't see a middle ground.

    Same could have been said for Christianity before we defanged it (mostly. Still has the odd tooth here and there). No, I think it is possible, although it's not a short-term thing. It may not even be ready for it - I do think Christianity and society evolved together to the point where society could put Christianity into a corner as a societal support rather than the basis of society.

    It is rare enough though that oppressive action will stamp out a religion though. Religions thrive on being oppressed. Catholicism is still strong, even after decades of being brutally oppressed. We all know what happened to the Jews, and yet Judaism thrives still. It's not so much the eradication of the religion that is needed, rather its level of power and influence where they go against the good of the State and her people. That includes restrictions against Muslim women from their own cultures that are more draconian than restrictions against the rest of the population in my view.
    Hank Scorpio wrote: »
    While I don't agree with the post you're referring to, a phobia is an irrational fear of something. Islamaphobia in my opinion is a buzzword used to shut down credible arguments talking about it in a negative light.
    Tbh though, I read that post as being exactly that. Islamophobia can be thrown out too easily, I quite agree. But that previous post was emphasising draconian measures to be taken against a wide group of people (including our own, native-born citizens), not for their own crimes, not for what they've done, but for who they -are-. And it appears to be out of fear. Hurt them before they hurt me. That's what made it, in my view, Islamophobic rather than addressing an issue that Islam is wrapped into.

    conorhal wrote: »
    So even this guy you wouldn't favor deporting? Why is deporting him back to where he came from making him some other countries problem? He'd be deported back to where he came from because he's a problem for this country.

    Deportation may not be 'part of your solution', but I'm still waiting for an idea of what your solution might be.
    Because this is a global issue. We can just shunt problematic people hither and yon, but what that will probably lead to is more wildcards getting steadily more resentful and exposing them to more radicals. Basically, deporting them to their own country gives ISIS another jihadist rather than taking him out of the pool of potential jihadists altogether. Both solve our immediate problem, potential jihadist in the country, but one solves it by adding said potential jihadist to another community to continue his bull**** there. Bit like moving paedophile priests around the place. Sure, they might recover by themselves and become upstanding members of society, but they probably won't. Please do note that I did actually say deporting is a potential solution for that particular case, so I ask you not to put words in my mouth.

    No, I don't have an immediate, sweeping solution that will solve everything - no-one does, including the draconian kill-em-all/deport-em-all types. But I would prefer to work towards a solution that won't just make things worse. Believe me, I'd love to know what that solution is too.


  • #1163
    Hank Scorpio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,631 ✭✭✭✭Hank Scorpio


    crashadder wrote: »
    I am a principal software engineer with a masters degree who holds a critical skills employment permit in Ireland. I am Turkish but i am an atheist like tens of thousands if not more in Turkey . So do you think i should leave your country and go back to where i came from ? i come from a muslim country after all :-).

    Obviously not, even if you were a Muslim nobody with a right mind should even contemplate that.


  • #1164
    DeanAustin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,885 ✭✭✭DeanAustin


    Beyondgone wrote: »
    Yup. Pretty much. Sow the storm, reap the hurricane or some such. The West chose to "meddle with extreme violence" in the ME and now the chickens are coming home to roost. It's pointless arguing otherwise. Those Policies might work if you didn't have thousands of those same people living among you, but that isn't reality, so it's moot. The day to day reality in the ME is of extreme violence of one sort or another. But when that then spills over and flows back into the nice peaceful West, we act surprised and outraged. Odd, really.

    I don't think a lot of people get this point of view to be honest. Islamic terrorists are labelled as people who "just want to destroy the western way of life". I'm not sure that's the case for at least some of them. Lots of what I've read about bin Laden, for example, suggested his problem was with what he saw as the Western interference and occupation of the Middle East rather than a desire to destroy the Western way of life.


  • #1165
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 12,762 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    DeanAustin wrote: »
    I agree with your point to an extent but I'm sure the west would counter-argue that they don't deliberately target civilians.

    Well, they have a dreadful aim regardless. And I'm sure that's some comfort to the people there that have to bury their family.

    gizmo81 wrote: »
    This is not a political war, it's a cultural war.

    What did Sweden do to warrant their recent attack?

    I have no idea. But this article mentions nothing about ISIS, but mentions he's a Sunni Muslim from Uzbek.
    Maybe he was p*ssed off at having to go back to Uzbek as his refugee status was turned down?


    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/04/10/world/europe/sweden-terror-attack.html?_r=0&referer=https://www.google.com/


  • #1166
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,063 ✭✭✭conorhal


    crashadder wrote: »
    I am a principal software engineer with a masters degree who holds a critical skills employment permit in Ireland. I am Turkish but i am an atheist like tens of thousands if not more in Turkey . So do you think i should leave your country and go back to where i came from ? i come from a muslim country after all :-).

    Athiests ain't the problem, so, no. I'd be more concerned for you in Turkey where that fact is increasingly something you don't want to mention. But the reality is that Muslim immigration is a problem and it's one that could ultimately impact on you because doors are going to start closing when people decide the risks aren't worth the rewards of permitting immigration from certain parts of the world.


  • #1167
    Conservative
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 596 ✭✭✭Conservative


    Samaris wrote: »
    Conservative wrote: »
    Re: Semtex. Anyone involved in dissident Republicanism should be interned (being kind) also, along with their scumbags mates and family if they are thought to be sympathisers too. I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

    Anti-Muslim sentiment is just going to grow and we in Ireland are going to end up with exactly the same scenario of disillusioned communities striking out at us. The vast majority of Muslims were not born here and have no right here. Deport them and refuse to take any EU born Muslims going forward unless they perform essential duties.

    Just to be clear, are you saying that this is going to happen anyway, or are you advocating it should happen by suddenly turning on the Muslim community in Ireland, breaking up families (although I suppose you could kindly deport the evil Muslim's Irish husband or wife and any children), deporting innocent people, rendering Irish-born children wards of the state (or casting them out to countries where they don't belong and may be in danger), etc, etc. Maybe some old internship while they wait to have their fates decided as sure you can't have rogue Muslims running around the place. (And of course some signs up saying "HAVE YOU SEEN THIS MUSLIM? Report all Muslims to the Gardai immediately")

    Because that will indeed be an excellent way to rouse fury and fear in a whole sector of people and give their children plenty of reason to be sucked into the ISIS bullsh*t.

    All in all, I can't offhand think of a better short-term way to introduce trouble here. ISIS would be delighted.

    (By the way, how young is too young for family members of IRA dissidents to be interned? 13? 10? 5? Do we intern the babies too? Or do they get made wards of the state while we intern their families? Do the children get released when they become adults or is it better to just leave them to rot, just in case they've genetically inherited IRA-ness? Do they get put in with the Muslim families too while they await deporting or do we build separate internment facilities? How do you reckon children of the interned will feel, growing up and knowing that they have no blood family because their entirely innocent parents were imprisoned by the State because their mother's brother was suspected of IRA involvement? Do you reckon that will make them more or less inclined to grow up as ordinary Irish citizens or that such an experience might warp their views somewhat? Do you remember how public opinion reacted to the hunger strikes? And those were the actually guilty ones.)

    In short, your proposals are draconian, foolish and counter-productive. And they will not work.

    Why exactly do we have a "Muslim community" to begin with.

    I am saying it should and would happen if we had any sense. I would indeed include children born here to Irish mothers (citizenship should be revoked for being a moron regardless) or non nationals. Send the mother with them.

    No I am not talking about 10 year old kids? WTF? Anybody thought to be a supporter/sympathiser would be interned until it was proven otherwise. Those found guilty would be dumped at sea. See how many supporters we have then.

    If we rid ourselves of the poison that is Islam in all its forms ISIS are going to radicalise who exactly? SF/RA have a monopoly on the dip****s among us anyway.


  • #1168
    Beyondgone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭Beyondgone


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    Some posters have really shown their true colours on this thread.

    In as much as? It's hardly surprising. Terror attacks will cause people to have strong opinions one way or the other. Their opinions may be, in your view, "wrong" or counter to your thinking, but since when did peoples opinions follow any logical progression? I think you can read peoples views and "Go, hmm, don't agree with that" or "Yeah, good point" without resorting to "showing their true colours" remarks or suchlike.

    I'd imagine people are actually self-moderating the views they are offering, if anything. No doubt there are plenty reading this thread who would have very extreme views one way or the other, but know those views wouldn't be accepted. I tend to read these sorts of threads with a fairly open mind. People have opinions. Reading them is interesting. I'd prefer if they did "show their true colours" tbh, it'd be preferable to reading a thread full of false opinions.


  • #1169
    Sand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,011 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Gbear wrote: »
    But IS only exist because of said bombing.

    The persistent destabilisation of the Middle East is creating terrorists.
    It also created a massive refugee crisis.

    This is quite complex so I'll just say ISIS are not something created new from nothing by bombing. They are just a moderately more successful Al-Queda (remember them the gentlemen jihadists), who were moderately more successful than what came before them. Islamic terrorism and ideology did not spring to life in 2003.

    I'd agree the persistent destabilisation of the Middle East creates terrorists, but it also draws in outside powers be it for humanitarian or more cynical causes. I'd add that the US and the west have up until 2001 sought *only* stability to secure their oil supply.

    But I would also add that the stability in the Middle East was secured by murderous dictatorships like Hussein, Gadhafi and Assad. Do people want to wind the clocks back and have stability in the middle east secured by the secret police and torturers of those regimes?

    Its a false offer in my view because those regimes, secured only be force, were inherently unstable and bred terrorism.
    To an extent, the horse has already bolted, but there's still time for Syria.
    Between Assad, Saudi Arabia and Iran, they can get a hold on the big ****ing mess that the Middle East has become.

    There will be dictators, there will be civil war, there will be war crimes and systematic torture and murder of civilians, but it's now been shown that trying to fix that not only creates more problems for the rest of the world but it also makes it worse for the region as well.

    Okay, so I see the answer is yes. But the offer is false as I noted.
    The profile of a lot of them puts me in mind of Breivik, or other spree shooters - misanthropy, moralising judgements on a "fallen" society and a frankly embarassing degree of self-righteousness. There's a lot of celebration of historical, imperialistic and warlike figures like the Romans for the Neo-Nazis, or the Arabain kingdoms for Muslims, with their desire for a new Caliphate not sounding terribly dissimilar to a Fourth Reich.

    Agreed, the primary terrorist recruiting group is men who have otherwise failed in life, and respond to a group or ideology that offers them acceptance and the ability to reset the narrative of their life in a more heroic, righteous tone. Live on the dole or be a chosen warrior of god against the infidel? Not a hard choice for some.
    You talk about wanting to control something that frightens you, but I think it's exactly the same with those who want to ban all refugees or whatever.

    To be clear, I don't agree with banning all refugees. I disagree with uncontrolled immigration of young males from countries that might not be nice place to live, but are moving essentially for economic purposes.

    In terms of refugees, we should absolutely help them but the way to help the most people is to bring aid *to* them, rather than run some sort of Hunger Games competition where aid is only available to the strongest and fittest who can travel hundreds or thousands of miles. It is again no mystery that the vast numbers of immigrants and refugees reaching Europe are young men. Encouraging this only leads to resources not getting to the old and weak who cannot make the journey.

    They have an ideology which more explicitly directs them to attack our societies and arguably, they're coming from more primative, violent cultures, but I don't think on a fundamental level they're any different to the kinds of people who perpetrate these attacks for other reasons.

    As above, I don't think its in *their* interests to force them to travel so far for help. And I don't think its in Europes interests to encourage the development of negative sub cultures within Europe itself. Individuals can be wonderful people. Mobs less so.

    I think the profile is one that we're already really bad at dealing with in society - one that we have more broader problems with around unemployment, undereducation, depression and other mental health issues. In the case of the Muslim population, their version of these guys are getting funneled into these causes.
    Or at least that's what I reckon.

    And again, this is not going to get better any time soon. The west is on a path of increasing automation and the increasing elimination of low skilled work. Europe is not going to have anything positive to offer low skilled immigrants who cant speak the language so unemployment, under-education, depression and other mental health issues are going to be a given.

    We need to think a few moves ahead when it comes to immigration policy (as opposed to refugees).


  • #1170
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    Allah snackbar wrote:
    You're right there , people who see nothing wrong with shooting bombing and murdering innocent people because of their liberal western ways , I don't see too many Islamopbobes only people concerned about the rampant extremism invading from the middle East

    I don't think people who are concerned about extremism are islamophobes.


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  • #1171
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Hank Scorpio wrote: »
    Thought you were referring to Islam and Women as a whole.

    I wouldn't say it's all roses and flowers in the UK either though.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34357047

    "And among some of Britain's urban Muslims - nearly half of whom were born in the UK and are under 24 - there's a belief that leaving Islam is a sin and can even be punished by death.
    An investigation for the BBC has found evidence of young people suffering threats, intimidation, being ostracised by their communities and, in some cases, encountering serious physical abuse when they told their families they were no longer Muslims."
    Clearly there are places in the world where it isn't a choice, but in the UK or Ireland, it is.
    And, as I said, there are societal pressures on people, but the choice exists.

    I was responding (as you were) to someone who mentioned seeing Muslim women dropping their children off to school here, so I'm talking about the position here.

    Anyway, still not seeing how this relates to the terror attack (apart from using it as a cynical way to berate Muslim women and their choice of dress and conflate it with terrorism)


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