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Eircode discussion

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Comments

  • #352
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,474 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    gctest50 wrote: »
    http://ws.postcoder.com/pcw/PCW45-12345-12345-1234X/rgeo/ie/53.332067/-6.255492?distance=500
    Love me some XML!


  • #353
    PDVerse
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭PDVerse


    It is unfortunate that the false "An Post deliberately crippled the design" claim is still being made. The Eircode design, including the "random" last four characters, was designed during the tender phase before any interaction with An Post. The final design document that is quoted includes An Post's view of a requirement for hierarchy/sequencing in a postcode. Their assessment agreed with and cited a subset of the reasons why hierarchy/sequencing should not be included. Neither An Post, CWU or DCENR dictated the design of the unique identifier, it was chosen as the best available option considering all the pro's and con's.


  • #354
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,402 ✭✭✭plodder


    PDVerse wrote: »
    It is unfortunate that the false "An Post deliberately crippled the design" claim is still being made. The Eircode design, including the "random" last four characters, was designed during the tender phase before any interaction with An Post. The final design document that is quoted includes An Post's view of a requirement for hierarchy/sequencing in a postcode. Their assessment agreed with and cited a subset of the reasons why hierarchy/sequencing should not be included. Neither An Post, CWU or DCENR dictated the design of the unique identifier, it was chosen as the best available option considering all the pro's and con's.
    Personally, I think it would be more correct to say that An Post's requirements crippled the design. It's too emotive and hard to prove that they did it deliberately, though as you said they concurred with the decision to make the codes random.

    The huge variation in routing key area size is another example. You could say it was a deliberate decision to make the public aspect of the structure as useless as possible, or it was done simply to reflect An Post's strange internal workings. Either way, the result was the same.


  • #355
    PDVerse
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭PDVerse


    The design was created before An Post expressed a view, so definitively NOT a requirement.

    The Togher/Wilton article in the Examiner this morning provides a glimpse into the alternative universe where Eircode used "areas" within the code. The response is EXACTLY as predicted. This would have been repeated thousands of times up and down the country, IF Eircode had launched with a hierarchical design. My view has always been that these problems would have become known during the build phase and caused politicians to sink the entire postcode project before launch.


  • #356
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,402 ✭✭✭plodder


    PDVerse wrote: »
    The design was created before An Post expressed a view, so definitively NOT a requirement.
    The routing key areas are aligned to An Post's sorting/delivery structure, are they not? It doesn't really matter when the decision was made to do that. It is the situation.
    The Togher/Wilton article in the Examiner this morning provides a glimpse into the alternative universe where Eircode used "areas" within the code. The response is EXACTLY as predicted. This would have been repeated thousands of times up and down the country, IF Eircode had launched with a hierarchical design. My view has always been that these problems would have become known during the build phase and caused politicians to sink the entire postcode project before launch.
    I don't doubt that you believe that, but it wasn't your decision to make, not least because the postcode design board had already taken a different view. The equivalent issues with the UK postcode are completely blown out of proportion. The fact is it's only very rare cases where people are unhappy with their postcode. It could have been even less of a problem here, if we also had the unique code per property aspect. As everyone keeps pointing out, that allows you to aggregate properties in any number of different ways, if that is what you want to do.

    Even now, it's still possible to partially remedy the situation. A free dataset with the same kind of limited information you would get from a hierarchical code (freely) should have been part of this system from day one, and still could be added to it.


  • #357
    PDVerse
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭PDVerse


    The two year collaborative tender process, which used the Postcode Project Board recommendations as a starting point, yielded a vastly improved final tender requirements document. That was the sole basis for decision making.

    The definition of urban areas (e.g. Wilton/Togher) and practically every townland in the country are vague at best, and most definitely would have caused the type of reaction that we are seeing today in the Examiner if included in the Eircode design.

    The "free" dataset you are advocating would have doubled down on the problem by allowing Insurance companies to rate properties by Eircode area as an alternative to licensing the Eircode data and using the exact location of the property.

    Not all expenditure by Government on consultants is a waste. Sometimes their expertise ensures all aspects of design implications are properly weighted.


  • #358
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,402 ✭✭✭plodder


    PDVerse wrote: »
    The two year collaborative tender process, which used the Postcode Project Board recommendations as a starting point, yielded a vastly improved final tender requirements document. That was the sole basis for decision making.
    There would appear to be some disagreement on that ...
    The definition of urban areas (e.g. Wilton/Togher) and practically every townland in the country are vague at best, and most definitely would have caused the type of reaction that we are seeing today in the Examiner if included in the Eircode design.
    It didn't have to use anything other than CSO small areas, which are precisely defined.
    The "free" dataset you are advocating would have doubled down on the problem by allowing Insurance companies to rate properties by Eircode area as an alternative to licensing the Eircode data and using the exact location of the property.
    Exactly. Eircode was designed to be obscure/random so that people couldn't extract any benefit from it, without paying. But, every other postcode in the world has some uses even without paying.

    In all probability, insurance companies would have still licensed ECAD etc, but it is voluntary organisations and other non commercial entities that would like to do some analysis using postcodes, but find they aren't likely to given they have to pay.
    Not all expenditure by Government on consultants is a waste. Sometimes their expertise ensures all aspects of design implications are properly weighted.
    Neither does it guarantee that outcome. What was missing here was openness, transparency and public consultation.


  • #359
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    plodder wrote: »
    The routing key areas are aligned to An Post's sorting/delivery structure, are they not? It doesn't really matter when the decision was made to do that. It is the situation.

    This is a valid point.

    Why, if An Post has a fully automated sorting system does the Eircode have to have any relevance to An Posts systems? Surely, if they can cope with entirely random parts of the code, could they not cope with a fully random code? In other words, no matter what the Eircode structure chosen would it affect An Post.

    The SAC instead of An Posts routing key would have been more valid since An Post could still use it, while others could just use this bit. An Post has actually more like 2,000 routing keys (post towns) but chose to use just 139 of them - I wonder why. It was suggested they wanted to cripple the design - not sure about that.


  • #360
    PDVerse
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭PDVerse


    @plodder I think disagreement is the wrong word. There are those who were involved in the process and know the facts, and those outside the process who make claims.

    You may be unaware of how Small Areas are defined. They use townland boundaries in rural areas, which use "official" boundaries. In exactly the same manner as outlined in the Wilton/Togher debate they can have many different interpretations locally. I would defy anyone to tell my mother-in-law that she has been using the wrong townland in her address for the last 75 years.

    The funding model chosen by Government had no impact on the design. If we knew that the data would be released as open data the design would be unchanged.

    We considered all user groups in the design, but the overriding concern was deliver a design that provided maximum benefit to the public, especially those in non-unique addresses in rural Ireland. Nobody asks a heart transplant surgeon to perform a survey of patients to determine which anti-rejection drug to recommend. Design by committee does not have a good track record.


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  • #361
    grogi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    gctest50 wrote: »
    course it does

    here, a nice csv file :

    http://ws.postcoder.com/pcw/PCW45-12345-12345-1234X/rgeo/ie/53.332067/-6.255492?distance=500&output=csv

    It looks a lot like xml, not csv... Funnily enough edge gets a JSON :D


  • #362
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    ? :P


    http://ws.postcoder.com/pcw/PCW45-12345-12345-1234X/rgeo/ie/53.332067/-6.255492?distance=500&format=csv


  • #363
    SPDUB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭SPDUB


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Eircode is not on any Satnav that I know of so it cannot give false results.

    Well that's one reason why such a claim should have been questioned as well as the claim it would always give a false result when implemented
    However, it was mentioned that construction sites do not have Eircodes and cannot get them. - True.

    Posties are obliged to tell Geodirectory of new development when asked about it . So it seems a change in reporting procedures to Geodirectory and then to Eircode could help here .
    Eircode was not going to be used by An Post - at least outside their automated sorting offices. - True.

    I'm not sure where this claim came from but in any case it isn't strictly true .

    While the postie will normally read the address in the 11 anywhere road format if the only part of an address legible is the Eircode then there is a procedure in place for that code to be turned into a street address in every delivery office


  • #364
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Apparently, the claim that An Post were not going to use Eircode was got from an FOI request. Check out the interview of SO'R Today I posted above. It is not my claim but by the interviewee.

    It has been said many times on various Eircode threads over a long time - so it must be true. :)


  • #365
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    An Post said Eircodes have been fully integrated into its automated sorting systems and it "fully supported and continues to support the introduction of the new Eircode system".
    source http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0714/802305-eircode/

    so lets bury that for once and all

    Heres AnPost recommendation for a correct address

    http://correctaddress.anpost.ie/pages/Search.aspx

    Note the recommendation to include the Eircode

    (and the sorting county as opposed to the Geographic county that often confuses people )


  • #366
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,402 ✭✭✭plodder


    PDVerse wrote: »
    @plodder I think disagreement is the wrong word. There are those who were involved in the process and know the facts, and those outside the process who make claims.
    Indeed, there are many people who should have been involved in the process but weren't.
    You may be unaware of how Small Areas are defined. They use townland boundaries in rural areas, which use "official" boundaries. In exactly the same manner as outlined in the Wilton/Togher debate they can have many different interpretations locally. I would defy anyone to tell my mother-in-law that she has been using the wrong townland in her address for the last 75 years.
    In this country we are used to multiple different area structures. Official townland boundaries are one thing. An Post's address structure is another. Electoral divisions are one more. School districts (for schools that enforce this) are completely different again. So, if postcodes were to be based on one of those (townland boundaries in rural areas) then I don't think that would be a problem, especially as we know that existing addresses with townlands etc are fully preserved.
    The funding model chosen by Government had no impact on the design. If we knew that the data would be released as open data the design would be unchanged.
    We considered all user groups in the design, but the overriding concern was deliver a design that provided maximum benefit to the public, especially those in non-unique addresses in rural Ireland. Nobody asks a heart transplant surgeon to perform a survey of patients to determine which anti-rejection drug to recommend. Design by committee does not have a good track record.
    How do we know you considered all user groups? Where are the documents to show that? I think a good job was done for non-unique addresses, but there are a number of other uses which you didn't consider, such as casual use by the public at large, small businesses that are not well connected to IT systems, voluntary and non-comercial organisations.

    By the way, on the idea for the free dataset with limited information, did you not have a meeting with the FTAI where you suggested something very similar?


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  • #367
    GJG
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 158 ✭✭GJG


    Plodder, you seem to have a sense of grievance here but the glaring omission in all your criticisms is any actual real-life flaw. I'm aware that criticisms have been voiced, but, as far as I can see, all of these are either based on personal aesthetics, or monomania about a particular aspect that ignores how the demand would prejudice other uses.

    A design has been chosen. It is a spectacular improvement on the previous situation. Don't you think you should just build a bridge and get over it unless you can point out a viable change within Eircode's remit that can a) improve its performance in some way b) without prejudicing other aspects of its use?


  • #368
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    GJG wrote: »
    A design has been chosen. It is a spectacular improvement on the previous situation. Don't you think you should just build a bridge and get over it unless you can point out a viable change within Eircode's remit that can a) improve its performance in some way b) without prejudicing other aspects of its use?

    The design has a spectacular flaw. The routing codes are too big and some are not contiguous. Some cover huge areas and others huge populations while for others, the reverse of both exists. This suggests some strange bias in the design.

    A simple change would be to reduce the size of these by increasing their number from 139 to about 2,000. This could be done over time and region by region. It would not affect An Post, and could be done to align the routing codes with county boundaries - giving much joy to traditionalist everywhere.

    I think such a change meets your requirements. It might also incorporate the nice element from the design - making the codes more easily memorable.


  • #369
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    giving much joy to traditionalist everywhere.

    I don't think it's a postcodes job to appease traditionalists.

    If we wanted a traditional postcode, we should have done it 50 years ago.

    I think the point is, we've moved beyond the need for traditional postcodes but people can't get there head around it.

    This postcode works really well with modern technology, which is what our lives revolve around now and in the future.


  • #370
    GJG
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 158 ✭✭GJG


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    GJG wrote: »
    A design has been chosen. It is a spectacular improvement on the previous situation. Don't you think you should just build a bridge and get over it unless you can point out a viable change within Eircode's remit that can a) improve its performance in some way b) without prejudicing other aspects of its use?

    The design has a spectacular flaw. The routing codes are too big and some are not contiguous. Some cover huge areas and others huge populations while for others, the reverse of both exists. This suggests some strange bias in the design.

    A simple change would be to reduce the size of these by increasing their number from 139 to about 2,000. This could be done over time and region by region. It would not affect An Post, and could be done to align the routing codes with county boundaries - giving much joy to traditionalist everywhere.

    I think such a change meets your requirements. It might also incorporate the nice element from the design - making the codes more easily memorable.

    That really isn't a design flaw. I realise that it offends against your sense of aesthetics and order (mine too), but a design flaw is something that makes a function within the remit of Eircode impossible or unreasonably difficult.

    UK postcodes cover a maximum of 26 dwellings. German ones have tens of thousands. Each allows some ad-hoc uses, where the granularity roughly matches the requirement, though of course UK postcodes are far too small for some uses and German ones are far too big for others.

    Eircodes really have no areas, they have 2.2m precise location points. A simple function can organise them into areas with any required level of granularity. I realise that some people who are uneasy or unfamiliar with IT may not get that, but that's hardly a reason to change the design.

    You are suggesting essentially - a year in - changing everyone, or almost everyone's Eircode. If you genuinely think that would aid memorability, then I think it's best to let the readers decide if that is plausible.

    What I'm asking for is a change you or Poldder can suggest - any change - that would improve some use of Eircode without prejudicing some other use. Anyone who can't accept that as the threshold is, in my view, an obsessive monomaniac. Anyone who acknowledges that threshold can't be met can only rationally accept Eircodes.


  • #371
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,548 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    BoatMad wrote: »
    source http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0714/802305-eircode/

    so lets bury that for once and all

    Heres AnPost recommendation for a correct address

    http://correctaddress.anpost.ie/pages/Search.aspx

    Note the recommendation to include the Eircode

    (and the sorting county as opposed to the Geographic county that often confuses people )
    Surely that should have been one of the benefits of introducing a postcode. If I order something online how do I know if it will be delivered by An Post who want a 'sorting county' or by a courier who sorts their deliveries differently. A proper post code, properly used should have enabled doing away with 'sort county' nonsense and allowed items to be addressed by their intended destination rather than how one company currently organises their deliveries.

    The linking of a post code, at a high level, to the logistics of one particular player in the market at a point in time and, at a more granular level, to completely random rubbish has made a pigs ear out of what could have been a silk purse.


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  • #372
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,402 ✭✭✭plodder


    It's like Groundhog day here. Every few weeks or after a few pages of the thread has past by, people retreat to their familiar old positions.

    Flaws?
    What flaws?
    Eircode is unique. It's cool. It's modern. So, what if you need a computer (and money) to decode it? We all use computers now? Get with the program. Put on the green jersey and stop moaning and cribbing :)

    There are still some serious points though. As PDverse said above 'design by committee' has a bad rep.There's an impression out there that the previous committees faffed around for years producing reports and not much else. I wasn't involved, but I thought the reports were quite good. What I suspect happened is it got to a stage where hard political decisions had to be made eg. take on An Post or not take them on. And that's where it stalled. So, rather than make those hard decisions, they just decided to constrain the system to :-
    - fit in with An Post's wacky system, even though An Post never needed a postcode
    - make it opaque and unstructured rather than run the risk of postcode snobbery

    I do have sympathy for the designers who were put in a difficult position it seems, but that doesn't mean the issues shouldn't be highlighted and even now some changes made. @GCJ. You seemed to be in favour of the free dataset idea. What has changed? If it was scotched by An Post, why not just say so?

    Using a small team to design in secret (instead of a more open process) will certainly get you quicker results, but it might not be what most people would want.


  • #373
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    It's like Groundhog day here. Every few weeks or after a few pages of the thread has past by, people retreat to their familiar old positions.

    Flaws?
    What flaws?
    Eircode is unique. It's cool. It's modern. So, what if you need a computer (and money) to decode it? We all use computers now? Get with the program. Put on the green jersey and stop moaning and cribbing :)

    There are still some serious points though. As PDverse said above 'design by committee' has a bad rep.There's an impression out there that the previous committees faffed around for years producing reports and not much else. I wasn't involved, but I thought the reports were quite good. What I suspect happened is it got to a stage where hard political decisions had to be made eg. take on An Post or not take them on. And that's where it stalled. So, rather than make those hard decisions, they just decided to constrain the system to :-
    - fit in with An Post's wacky system, even though An Post never needed a postcode
    - make it opaque and unstructured rather than run the risk of postcode snobbery

    I do have sympathy for the designers who were put in a difficult position it seems, but that doesn't mean the issues shouldn't be highlighted and even now some changes made. @GCJ. You seemed to be in favour of the free dataset idea. What has changed? If it was scotched by An Post, why not just say so?

    Using a small team to design in secret (instead of a more open process) will certainly get you quicker results, but it might not be what most people would want.

    Now that we have the Autoaddress app, no one needs money to use eircode as much as they want.

    And yes it is like Groundhog Day here. But let me remind you, you were the one who wanted a thread to discuss eircode over and over again.

    I wanted the implementation thread to discuss new uses and progress. If you don't want to keep having the same old argument over and over again. Then please feel free to stop.


  • #374
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,402 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    Now that we have the Autoaddress app, no one needs money to use eircode as much as they want.
    Only for navigation. Have you forgotten about all the other use cases, which the app isn't useful for, like the people looking for a new school? that we discussed a few weeks ago?

    See what I mean..


  • #375
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    Only for navigation. Have you forgotten about all the other use cases, which the app isn't useful for, like the people looking for a new school? that we discussed a few weeks ago?

    See what I mean..


    Would you like to have that discussion again?


  • #376
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,402 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    Would you like to have that discussion again?
    No need. Here is what you said about it. They should just pay.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99979991&postcount=1263
    How many parents do you think there would be?

    500? Because for £20* between the 500 of them they can get everything (full ECAD database) you say they should have access to above from www.eircodesoftware.ie (no licence required)

    *I'm using GBP currency in this example as that company happens to quote their prices in sterling on their website, the Irish ones don't seem to list any prices.


  • #377
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    No need. Here is what you said about it. They should just pay.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99979991&postcount=1263


    Oh here we go again. You said they *couldnt* do it. You were incorrect. I told you they could in fact do it. You complained they'd have to pay, I told you the cost was minimal. You complained they hadn't the brains to work out how to spilt the bill between them. I told you they probably already have an admin fund they could use. No matter what solution I give you, you find a problem with it to complain about.

    And btw the way. The auto address app lets them do this for free. Each parent can can look up their eircode and get the small area code label and give it to the person in charge who can sort and group by small areas. Or the one person can look up every eircode (for free) and get the small area code. The app will even sort them and group them based on small area code in the deliveries tab. But I'm sure you'll find a problem with this too.


  • #378
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,402 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    Oh here we go again. You said they *couldnt* do it. You were incorrect. I told you they could in fact do it. You complained they'd have to pay, I told you the cost was minimal. You complained they hadn't the brains to work out how to spilt the bill between them. I told you they probably already have an admin fund they could use. No matter what solution I give you, you find a problem with it to complain about.

    And btw the way. The auto address app lets them do this for free. Each parent can can look up their eircode and get the small area code label and give it to the person in charge who can sort and group by small areas. Or the one person can look up every eircode (for free) and get the small area code. The app will even sort them and group them based on small area code in the deliveries tab. But I'm sure you'll find a problem with this too.
    and you're off (again) hammering square pegs into round holes. So, you think it is practical to tell all the parents - download this app, enter their eircode into it, figure out how to get the small area code out of it (which isn't that easy) and send that code on...

    .. as opposed to just sending their address and the people putting pins into a set of maps.

    If using a postcode is not as easy as using a script to automatically extract it from an email or web form, and automatically sorting it and producing lists of related areas, then the postcode and app are zero use for this application.

    You being clever and showing that it is theoretically possible to use the app, no matter how impractical it is, doesn't prove your point. But, yes, here we go again ...

    Just to be 100% clear. The app is great for navigation and deliveries, but it simply can't cover all use cases. That's the whole point of the ECAD/ECAF, where people use their own software/scripts etc to do whatever it is they want. Surely you see this?


  • #379
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    and you're off (again) hammering square pegs into round holes. So, you think it is practical to tell all the parents - download this app, enter their eircode into it, figure out how to get the small area code out of it (which isn't that easy) and send that code on...

    .. as opposed to just sending their address and the people putting pins into a set of maps.

    If using a postcode is not as easy as using a script to automatically extract it from an email or web form, and automatically sorting it and producing lists of related areas, then the postcode and app are zero use for this application.

    You being clever and showing that it is theoretically possible to use the app, no matter how impractical it is, doesn't prove your point. But, yes, here we go again ...



    There you go "people are too stupid to work the app" you found a problem. Good man.

    Enter your eircode
    Save and add to deliveries
    Look at the label in the corner


    Now of course as mentioned, if they want to just send their address to someone who can just run a quick look up and sort all the codes.....they'll have to part with €25. Oh the humanity.

    If a shop door doesn't have a pull or push sign on it, do you just assume the door can't be opened and walk away?


  • #380
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,402 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    There you go "people are too stupid to work the app" you found a problem. Good man.

    Enter your eircode
    Save and add to deliveries
    Look at the label in the corner


    Now of course as mentioned, if they want to just send their address to someone who can just run a quick look up and sort all the codes.....they'll have to part with €25. Oh the humanity.

    If a shop door doesn't have a pull or push sign on it, do you just assume the door can't be opened and walk away?
    It has nothing to do with 'stupidity'. It is simply more work. So, people will choose a different way of getting the information that involves less work.

    It's not rocket science.


  • #381
    Tychoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 175 ✭✭Tychoo


    I used mine for the first time last week


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  • #382
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    It has nothing to do with 'stupidity'. It is simply more work. So, people will choose a different way of getting the information that involves less work.

    It's not rocket science.

    Then do it your way. Everyone just sends their address / postcode or extract it from where ever and run the codes through the ECAD for a small fee.

    You argued things can't be done. When you're proven wrong, you start another complaint.


  • #383
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,402 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    Then do it your way. Everyone just sends their address / postcode or extract it from where ever and run the codes through the ECAD for a small fee.

    You argued things can't be done. When you're proven wrong, you start another complaint.
    Okay, you proved me wrong. It can be done. There is no way in the wide eartlhly world anyone would use the app for this purpose, but you are right it could be done. Happy now? :rolleyes:


  • #384
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    Okay, you proved me wrong. It can be done. There is no way in the wide eartlhly world anyone would use the app for this purpose, but you are right it could be done. Happy now? :rolleyes:

    If that's your belief then as I said in my post.... Don't use the app. Do it your way. Which also can be done.

    I'd be happier if you could see these things for yourself instead of arguing them on here over and over again.


  • #385
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    plodder wrote: »
    ......... So, people will choose a different way of getting the information that involves less work.

    less work

    and you want people putting pins into a set of maps ?
    plodder wrote: »
    .. as opposed to just sending their address and the people putting pins into a set of maps.

    pins into a set of maps ???


  • #386
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: @plodder and @ukoda.

    Can you stop this bickering. It proves nothing having a go at each other. There is no convergence in your opinions.


  • #387
    sondagefaux
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    plodder wrote: »
    ukoda wrote: »
    There you go "people are too stupid to work the app" you found a problem. Good man.

    Enter your eircode
    Save and add to deliveries
    Look at the label in the corner


    Now of course as mentioned, if they want to just send their address to someone who can just run a quick look up and sort all the codes.....they'll have to part with 25. Oh the humanity.

    If a shop door doesn't have a pull or push sign on it, do you just assume the door can't be opened and walk away?
    It has nothing to do with 'stupidity'. It is simply more work. So, people will choose a different way of getting the information that involves less work.

    It's not rocket science.
    You'll generally find that if something can be used in a particular way, it will be used.

    For example, toothbrushes, cigarette lighters and razor blades...


  • #388
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,402 ✭✭✭plodder


    Problem: Find locations of (say) 1,000 family homes

    Solution 1:
    Ask each family to download an app to a phone, enter their eircode and get an area code out of it, send area code by email.

    Solution 2:
    Each family sends the eircode, and one (or more) persons types the eircode into app to get area code.

    Solution 3:
    Each family sends their address and someone pin points each address on a map.

    Solution 4:
    Someone builds a web page with google maps, and each family pinpoints their location using it.

    Which solution involves the least work? I think it's number 4, then 3, 2, 1.


  • #389
    sondagefaux
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    Building a web page is the least amount of work? :)


  • #390
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,402 ✭✭✭plodder


    sondagefaux wrote: »
    Building a web page is the least amount of work? :)
    Yes Though you'd have to use something different to embed a google map. You don't even need a web page. You tell them to go to maps.google.ie, locate your house, click on it, copy the link in the address bar and email that.


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  • #391
    carlmango11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭carlmango11


    Apologies if this has been the case for a while now but Domino's now accept Eircodes. Was pretty cool entering my code and it immediately knowing my address.

    On the UK tab I have to enter my postcode along with my house number.

    I'm a believer :heart:


  • #392
    Impetus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    The Irish Times has an admission that An Post don't (can't) use the Eircode.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/an-post-confirms-staff-do-not-use-eircode-system-for-local-deliveries-1.3104577

    While they probably have no problem using the 'routing key' ie the first three characters, the following four characters are meaningless. 50% of Irish addresses have no house number and street name. Which puts Ireland in the third world in terms of infrastructure for finding people and offices and factories.

    The eircode needs to be scrapped as a postcode. If statistics, revenue, commercial registry and similar see some value in it - fine leave it be as a hidden code.

    But Ireland needs, like every civilized country to give a name to each street/road and a building number to each building. Ideally using km numbering in rural areas - eg 200 road xyz is 100m from 301 road xyz but it is on the other side of the road.

    Ireland's postcode is not compliant with those used in other sorting systems in other countries. Hence post to from Ireland takes much longer than say between Luxembourg and Monaco - two tiny countries where letters are delivered next day or the second next day - despite the distance between each country and the time of day of posting. Because they use a standard address format, which is easily machine recognizable.


  • #393
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    Impetus wrote: »
    The eircode needs to be scrapped as a postcode.

    The simple fact is that, without rehashing all the arguments in the thread, Eircode is not and never has been a postcode because our national postal service does not use it as one. Including it in an address will not help An Post deliver your letter faster nor will leaving it out delay it, provided the rest of the address is accurate and complete. So far as An Post is concerned, it is completely redundant.


  • #394
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    The simple fact is that, without rehashing all the arguments in the thread, Eircode is not and never has been a postcode because our national postal service does not use it as one. Including it in an address will not help An Post deliver your letter faster nor will leaving it out delay it, provided the rest of the address is accurate and complete. So far as An Post is concerned, it is completely redundant.

    Royal mail still use the postal address and the post code only goes to street level at best . While here for example x11 df45 and nothing else will result in a delivery


  • #395
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Royal mail still use the postal address and the post code only goes to street level at best . While here for example x11 df45 and nothing else will result in a delivery

    You're right, but also being pretty disingenuous. A letter with just an Eircode as address will arrive. However, it'll typically arrive late with a note from An Post on the envelope to use the full address in future.


  • #396
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    You're right, but also being pretty disingenuous. A letter with just an Eircode as address will arrive. However, it'll typically arrive late with a note from An Post on the envelope to use the full address in future.

    And? We've to start looking at eircodes as machine understandable. So if I move to random town land, some county, some where and the postman looks at the address as says who's Mr LeinsterDub and what townland is that. Tap tap tap eircode awe that's the old Murphy place. Once that association is made the eircode become 'redundant' again. Eircodes are designed for the information age where the Internet is ever present (more or less)


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  • #397
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,890 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Impetus wrote: »
    But Ireland needs, like every civilized country to give a name to each street/road and a building number to each building. Ideally using km numbering in rural areas - eg 200 road xyz is 100m from 301 road xyz but it is on the other side of the road.

    Why on earth should we have to make up road names, doing enormous damage to the geographic structure in the process, when everyone has a unique Eircode?


  • #398
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,402 ✭✭✭plodder


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    And? We've to start looking at eircodes as machine understandable. So if I move to random town land, some county, some where and the postman looks at the address as says who's Mr LeinsterDub and what townland is that. Tap tap tap eircode awe that's the old Murphy place. Once that association is made the eircode become 'redundant' again. Eircodes are designed for the information age where the Internet is ever present (more or less)
    The problem is that the cost of pretending that Eircode is a postcode (in order to get An Post to support it) was replicating the peculiar delivery structure of An Post, and negating many of the benefits of a neutral, balanced structure.

    Eg. the huge, highly populated routing keys in the West, as opposed to the small, sparsely populated ones in the East of the country. Eircodes being "machine understandable" doesn't help with that.

    Even though people involved with the project claimed that people wouldn't use Eircodes directly for statistics, they would create new identifiers for different purposes, but postcodes are used everywhere in the world for statistics because they are identifiers that people are familiar with.

    CSO: House prices by Eircode

    Quite a useful tool for the east of the country, Dublin particularly. A lot less so, in Galway for example.


  • #399
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    The problem is that the cost of pretending that Eircode is a postcode (in order to get An Post to support it) was replicating the peculiar delivery structure of An Post, and negating many of the benefits of a neutral, balanced structure.

    Eg. the huge, highly populated routing keys in the West, as opposed to the small, sparsely populated ones in the East of the country. Eircodes being "machine understandable" doesn't help with that.

    I think it would help if An Post had a bit more of a modern view.

    It's highly likely that all their staff have smartphones already. An Post could develop an app for their Post people that all employees could download and use to help them on their route. They could give a small allowance to them for using their own data* on their mobile and it would revolutionise their processes.

    I've seen this done with so many companies around Ireland and it works really well.

    *or do what I've seen other companies do, negotiate a package with a mobile carrier for their staff. I.e. An Post could buy a certain amount of data per month that can be shared amongst staff, as some may need more than others, they can even go so far as to know which app is using the data in which device. I've seen this in 1 company in Ireland and it works really well, it's also dirt cheap


  • #400
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    To me Eircode has a problem in that they have chosen too few Routing Codes, 139 instead of about 1,000. They should have used four characters as the routing code, with a level of redundancy to give error detection. They even have a non-contiguous routing code - now try explaining that one.

    Using a larger number of routing codes would allow a more uniform spread, with approximately the same number of addresses per code, which would have great benefits for other uses than postal delivery.


  • #401
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    The biggest problem Eircode has is that people are still trying to design it long after its implementation.

    I won't say much more, because the last time I dared to say anything that wasn't critical of Eircode I was subjected to a sustained campaign of harassment on Twitter by one of its more vocal opponents, and life's too short.


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