Eircode discussion

plodder

Thread for discussion of aspects of Eircode other than its implementation

Sorry about all the Eircode threads. Hopefully all the defunct ones will soon drop off the main page.

plodder

There was an interesting discussion on morning Ireland about a drug testing service in Wales. Leaving aside the drug policy issues, I think it's an example of the kind of privacy issue that would cause problems with Eircode. The service allows illegal drug users to submit samples of substances to be tested anonymously. They don't ask for personally identifying information, but they do ask for a postcode for statistical purposes.

The equivalent approach with Eircode would be to ask for the full code and then map that to a small area or some other area code. The problem is of course that the person still had to provide their entire Eircode which reveals where they live. Would drug users really do that, given that their activities are illegal and the code could be used to trace them? Alternatively, the site could just ask for the routing key part, but its statistical value is very limited given the enormous variation in size of routing key areas. Obviously, if such a service is ever provided in this country, then they simply won't ask for people's Eircode.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/25951290/welsh-government-funds-drug-testing-service-for-public

"Eircode discussion"

Do we REALLY need another thread on this?

Sam Russell

Mod: Let the discussion run for a while. If it gets nowhere then it will be closed or fall away. I think a valid point has been made.

clewbays

plodder wrote: »

They don't ask for personally identifying information, but they do ask for a postcode for statistical purposes.

the code could be used to trace them? [/url]

Used by who to trace them? You give the impression that the information is being given in confidence and the postcode is being collected solely for statistical purposes which would exclude it being used for other purposes. So who else do you think would be given access and on what legal basis?

plodder

clewbays wrote: »

Used by who to trace them? You give the impression that the information is being given in confidence and the postcode is being collected solely for statistical purposes which would exclude it being used for other purposes. So who else do you think would be given access and on what legal basis?

It is only collected for statistical purposes, which does preclude it from being used for other purposes (as far as I know). But, I can't imagine in this country illegal drug users being happy to provide what amounts to their full address, regardless of the theoretical protection afforded by data protection law. So, if a service like that were ever offered here, I doubt they would ask for people's Eircodes due to the risk to anonymity.

clewbays

plodder wrote: »

... theoretical protection afforded by data protection law ...

I hadn't heard about that before, thanks for bringing it to our attention. Maybe let the DPC know?

plodder

clewbays wrote: »

I hadn't heard about that before, thanks for bringing it to our attention. Maybe let the DPC know?

You are looking at it from the point of view of the data controller, who we all know will mostly do the right thing. From the point of view of the user, the perception is different, especially when dealing with state agencies, who tend to be all lumped in together (whether that is right or not).

I've provided other similar examples before. Eg market research companies looking for people's opinions on particular questions or products. They can ask for your Eircode, and they might promise they will only use it to establish roughly where you live, but if the code was properly hierarchical you could only give them the first X number of characters from your code, and you would be sure that they only roughly know where you live. That's an important distinction and is bound to affect the usefulness of eircodes for these applications.

Sam Russell

A solution to the above problem would be for the Eircode finder to offer a 'statistical' Eircode (or anonimous code) that gives a code for the small area. For example, say my Eircode were K10 t6t6, then a statistical code could be given that applies to the small statistical area I live and is the same for all those living in the same area. Those areas are already defined, and is probably already there in the Geo-directory.

Second Toughest in_the Freshers

In the case of the drug testing above, unless they're being manufactured in your kitchen, I don't see how much more use the full code would be over the routing key.

In other cases I'd give the code of the nearest post office/ the local shop/ school/

my3cents

I really don't see the argument about drug testing. If a system devised for an area of the UK wouldn't work here what relevance has it?

It isn't a flaw in Eircode if it can't be used for something it was never intended to be used for.

plodder

my3cents wrote: »

I really don't see the argument about drug testing. If a system devised for an area of the UK wouldn't work here what relevance has it?

It isn't a flaw in Eircode if it can't be used for something it was never intended to be used for.

Postcodes are used for all kinds of different things in other countries.

But, can you point me to some document that describes what it was intended to be used for? It's certainly not needed for delivering post.

my3cents

plodder wrote: »

Postcodes are used for all kinds of different things in other countries.

But, can you point me to some document that describes what it was intended to be used for? It's certainly not needed for delivering post.

Its very clearly stated on the Eicode website that

Eircode, Ireland’s postcode system, will enable people and businesses to find every address in Ireland, ...

and you want a system that can't find an address

You can't talk about what other countries do without comparing other factors. In the UK most houses have a number or a house name displayed, roads even minor ones have road name, as a result there was no non-unique address problem to solve. iirc the UK Postcode system was introduced by the post office, in Ireland our postal service didn't want a post code.

plodder

my3cents wrote: »

Its very clearly stated on the Eicode website that

Eircode, Ireland’s postcode system, will enable people and businesses to find every address in Ireland, ...

and you want a system that can't find an address

I never said I don't want a system that can't find an address. I'm asking what else was it supposed to support. Eg It provides unique identifiers for the revenue. There should be some document we can look at to see what all the requirements were. So, we can judge whether they made sense, and whether the system delivered, met them.

You can't talk about what other countries do without comparing other factors. In the UK most houses have a number or a house name displayed, roads even minor ones have road name, as a result there was no non-unique address problem to solve. iirc the UK Postcode system was introduced by the post office, in Ireland our postal service didn't want a post code.

That isn't relevant to this discussion which is about one use of postcodes for anonymised statistics. In your previous post, you said Eircode was never intended for this use. That's why I'm asking where exactly were the requirements on Eircode set out.

The two previous posters suggested ways this type of anonymous statistic could be collected, which is fair enough. It answers the question I asked, but I do think those solutions show that Eircode was not really designed with that type of application in mind.

Second Toughest in_the Freshers

my3cents wrote: »

It isn't a flaw in Eircode if it can't be used for something it was never intended to be used for.

well then, you'd have to ask why wasn't it designed to be able to handle smaller areas for statistical purposes?

my3cents

Second Toughest in_the Freshers wrote: »

well then, you'd have to ask why wasn't it designed to be able to handle smaller areas for statistical purposes?

Because then it wouldn't handle the issue of non unique addresses that it was designed to solve.

At the far end of our road there are about 10 houses all the same non unique address and all would have the same postcode under a UK type postcode system. Between the 10 houses there are only 2 surnames. Eircode solves that the UK postcode wouldn't.

plodder

my3cents wrote: »

Because then it wouldn't handle the issue of non unique addresses that it was designed to solve.

At the far end of our road there are about 10 houses all the same non unique address and all would have the same postcode under a UK type postcode system. Between the 10 houses there are only 2 surnames. Eircode solves that the UK postcode wouldn't.

Why does everyone keep coming back to the UK system? Eircode could have been designed to allow for this, and have unique codes. You would just ask for the first five characters of the code in cases like this.

Sam Russell

Small areas? Talk to autoaddress.

https://www.autoaddress.ie/blog

https://www.autoaddress.ie/blog/autoaddressblog/2016/01/25/big-benefit-of-small-areas

plodder

Sam Russell wrote: »

Small areas? Talk to autoaddress.

https://www.autoaddress.ie/blog

https://www.autoaddress.ie/blog/autoaddressblog/2016/01/25/big-benefit-of-small-areas

What's interesting about that is that they are clearly sold on the concept of small areas (maybe after it being pushed so hard here).

Small Areas are perfect as building blocks to define delivery areas and help group and plan deliveries.

But it raises the question as to why they weren't built into the code transparently instead of being hidden in a commercial database?

They even went as far as creating a new pseudo-postcode along the lines people like me have been suggesting as shown in image below. Wouldn't Eircode have been so much better if you could look at a map of postcode prefixes and see a logical order to them as shown in their own picture?

my3cents

plodder wrote: »

...
But it raises the question as to why they weren't built into the code transparently instead of being hidden in a commercial database?
...

Isn't this just dragging up old arguments that we have been through before?

Weren't the groupings made at a high level to stop what in the UK gets called the postcode lottery - nothing to do with winning money.

If you do group houses at a lower level within the code then there are always going to be anomalies. Someone for example that gets a poor delivery service because they are on the edge of a rural grouping instead of being on the edge of a town grouping - happens to me due to my An Post address making me look further away from the nearest town than I really am.

Eircode identifies the house without providing any other meaning. So I can't tell from your Eircode if you live on the rough side of town in an area know for drug dealing or if you are living in a posh area ripe for burglary.

In reality you want a system that can't find people but can put them in ghettos so services can be apportioned accordingly?

plodder

my3cents wrote: »

Isn't this just dragging up old arguments that we have been through before?

I didn't write the blog. If they hadn't posted it, I wouldn't have commented. It's a new angle on an old argument perhaps.

Weren't the groupings made at a high level to stop what in the UK gets called the postcode lottery - nothing to do with winning money.

That was the post hoc justification all right, but it was never seriously considered in terms of pros and cons.

If you do group houses at a lower level within the code then there are always going to be anomalies. Someone for example that gets a poor delivery service because they are on the edge of a rural grouping instead of being on the edge of a town grouping - happens to me due to my An Post address making me look further away from the nearest town than I really am.

Eircode identifies the house without providing any other meaning. So I can't tell from your Eircode if you live on the rough side of town in an area know for drug dealing or if you are living in a posh area ripe for burglary.

But, businesses who license Eircode and use this small area structure will know it and use it. Maybe you think the public are better off being happy in their ignorance. My theory is that they avoided making this structural information visible, partly to make life easier for themselves, and partly to make it easier to monetize the data. But, those are not valid design criterion for important public infrastructure (imo).

In reality you want a system that can't find people but can put them in ghettos so services can be apportioned accordingly?

There you go again with that claim :rolleyes:. I think the ghettos claim is a bit hysterical too.

Sam Russell

plodder wrote: »

They even went as far as creating a new pseudo-postcode along the lines people like me have been suggesting as shown in image below. Wouldn't Eircode have been so much better if you could look at a map of postcode prefixes and see a logical order to them as shown in their own picture?

That map looks like a post code map, and looks useful. Can we see more of it please?

MBSnr

Where did it all go wrong? PAC aims to get to root of Eircode failures

marmurr1916

This is the reason why any attempt to rationalise postal addresses in Ireland, to remove 'postal county' anomalies, would have been doomed to failure:

On a map, the 30 sq km of Roscommon that is being proposed as an addition to Westmeath looks like a square wedge marked off by one of those colonial lines used by 19th-century Europeans to carve up Africa.

Back then, imperialist decisions were taken without reference to the ties, customs and loyalties of indigenous populations.

The result, in some instances, was tribal warfare.

The language in Roscommon is no less incendiary. Independent TD Denis Naughten has spoken of a “set of ‘invaders’ marching from Mullingar . . . to take over the economic heart of Co Roscommon – and we have to stop them.”

Following the decision of Westmeath County Council last Monday to back this extension of its boundary into Roscommon, ill feeling, at least, seems inevitable. Rarely has the mood in Roscommon been as unanimous.

Even more rarely, politicians are united. Even the explosive county hospital issue did not bring people and politicians in the county together in the way that the proposed boundary revision has managed.

The Department of the Environment has recommended that the southern end of Roscommon should lose 30 sq km to Westmeath, arguing this would make it easier to manage the needs of a growing Athlone.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/roscommon-unites-against-westmeath-invaders-1.2512859

plodder

At the PAC, John McGuinness asked Mark Griffin (secretary general) of Dept of Communications about the random codes and his answer was that housing policy is to use brownfield sites for new housing development and all neighbouring codes would have to be renumbered in such cases. It's debatable how much that would happen in reality, but it's a pity the question wasn't about the lack of hierarchy in the code rather than it not being sequential, which is what people are really looking for.

gctest50

Sam Russell wrote: »

That map looks like a post code map, and looks useful. Can we see more of it please?

https://data.gov.ie/dataset/census-2011-boundary-files

plodder

Boatmad wrote:

I see great advantage to a system that has no meaning outside a database lookup. The fact is that any computer system can easily resolve eircodes to geo locations and go on to produce geo-orientated statistics.

designing a machine oriented code that humans can directly interpret , is 1970s technology in an increasing online world

personally I want my eircode to mean nothing to the casual observer

You're entitled to your opinion obviously, but I doubt that most people would share it. It also contradicts the recommendations made in the various reports that led up to Eircode. Eg, this report by Comreg (http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/ComReg0507.pdf

Number 1 clearly says the code shouldn't have been a 'hidden or technical code'. That rules out the database lookup key idea clearly. In fact, Eircode fails on all of the other criteria as well except for 4. and 6 (unique addresses and funding).

1. It is a public postcode that is proposed, not a “hidden” or technical code.
2. It should be structured, at least to the level of specific areas within each county.
3. It must be easily memorised so that it will gain maximum usage.
4. It must solve the issue of non unique addresses without asking people to change the name of their townland, parish or county.
5. It must be neutral as between operators. In particular it must enable the postcodes to be aggregated for operational purposes in whatever way each operator desires. Just because An Post has decided to deliver mail for East Clare from Limerick doesn’t mean that another operator cannot decide to use Ennis as its base for the whole of Clare – and the postcode shouldn’t ask the addressee whose affinity is with Clare to use a different county name in the address.
6. The approach to funding should ideally be self financing /minimal cost to operators and government

my3cents

plodder wrote: »

You're entitled to your opinion obviously, but I doubt that most people would share it. It also contradicts the recommendations made in the various reports that led up to Eircode. Eg, this report by Comreg (http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/ComReg0507.pdf

Number 1 clearly says the code shouldn't have been a 'hidden or technical code'. That rules out the database lookup key idea clearly. In fact, Eircode fails on all of the other criteria as well except for 4. and 6 (unique addresses and funding).

Which refers to An Posts use of "an advanced technical (hidden) postcode" as noted in section 6.2.

It doesn't back up your argument at all.

plodder

my3cents wrote: »

Which refers to An Posts use of "an advanced technical (hidden) postcode" as noted in section 6.2.

It doesn't back up your argument at all.

It refers to any hidden or technical code, not just An Post's. Why would it matter whose code it was if it were hidden or technical?

Granted the routing key is public, but it has been designed to discourage such use (variation in sizes, the lack of an official map etc)

The post I was responding to was making a virtue out of this 'feature' by arguing in favour of a completely meaningless code.

plodder

BoatMad wrote: »

There is no " other " side of the debate, Theres a sort of " down with that " without any clear reasons being advanced as to why Eircode is so unsuitable. Then we have the "crank" type claims , no GPO eircode, etc, well UPS " mightn't use it ", so its a complete failure.


The fact is you can advance certain technical criticisms of Eircode, but in the absence of an alternative system, its hard to make comparisons.

The UK system is very poor from a computer perspective as it was designed for humans , and the PAF was added later. Postcodes in a computerised society should be machine centric. ( which eircode is )

Ive covered a lot of info on eircode implementation , including issues around building courier custom sort lists and routes etc

It has been argued before, but maybe you joined in the discussion later.
Here is what I think Eircode should have been and then we can discuss the relative merits.

It's actually not all that different to what it is and is still based on database generated from geodirectory.

First two characters could have been a high level area (maybe a county, using existing car reg codes and existing Dublin postcodes)

Next three characters identify a CSO small area in the high level area.
Last two characters would identify individual properties in the small area, same as Eircode does. Could be random or not. Doesn't matter either way.

A free of charge database would provide geo-coordinates for centroid of each small area (five char code). This would be similar to what is provided free of charge in UK.

Paid for database is what ECAD is today.

Advantages

---

- does everything Eircode does today (ie identifies individual units) enables software based applications based on any possible grouping of codes.
- codes dramatically easier to remember (first five chars relate to real areas). Would have resulted in much faster adoption.
- provides anonymous code similar to other countries postcodes (first five characters) for situations where privacy demands it. Five chars could be marketed as postcode. Seven chars as location code. Eg 5 char code adequate for locating stores, services etc. This would have dealt with previous data commissioner's objection to Eircode.
- For simple cases of businesses and voluntary orgs the structure defined by large and small areas would be usable directly without needing to license special software or Eircode database. Small businesses could use simple maps for sorting and routing deliveries/service calls. If licensed software adds value to this, then all the better, just don't force everyone to license something.

Disadvantages

---

- if small area boundaries change then codes would have to change. This has been discussed at length and wouldn't happen anything like as frequently as people say. In general, new developments result in new postcode (small) areas, not affecting existing postcodes. Doesn't seem to be a major problem in UK.
- postcode snobbery. Also discussed extensively, and again this problem is overstated and most people in UK don't care about it. At end of day, it shouldn't have been the postcode contractor who decided on such an important architectural issue. It should have involved public consultation.
- doesn't follow An Post structure. But An Post never needed a postcode. The postcode working group originally recommended that it shouldn't follow An Post's structure. The absurd disparity in shape and size of Eircode routing keys only proves this point. (population varies from hundreds to probably over a hundred thousand)

Sam Russell

I think that design is workable and better than Eircodes design.

However, I would prefer a purely numerical postcode - for at least the first 5 characters (the public bit that ). I would use the Telecom STD codes as the base for the numbers, dropping the leading zero. It might be worth tidying them up a bit, but it is a good basis and would feed on peoples existing knowledge.

However, the biggest failure of Eircode was the lack of any attempt to solve the non-unique address problem. It is the combination of gobbledygook post code coupled with non-existent identifying markings for 30% of addresses - even townlands are not currently signposted in most counties.

What is needed is for official addresses to be the responsibility of some arm of the Government - either local or national. Then An Post and others will have to live with it.

Mountainsandh

I think one major failure of Eircode design has been to completely overlook the human element.
BoatMad I completely disagree with your statement that in a computer centric system, all services such as Eircode should be computer centric.

It seems obvious and elementary to me that any system requiring participation from the public should be public oriented first, and as technically adapted to fulfil its economic purpose as possible, second.

For implementation to work, the public need to be on board, not just companies. And so far, this uninteresting and irrelevant string of digits has not been adopted by the public. I can only judge from my own social environment of course, of neighbours, friends, family, and colleagues. So far, and still, I am the only person in that sample to know and use my Eircode. In my bubble, I would estimate a 50/50 ratio of people who "know they must have an Eircode and don't give a toss", and people who have forgotten all about it, and never even checked theirs.
My bubble is pretty broad and wide ranging as regards ages/generations, socioeconomic background, etc...

None of them are interested. None of them understand its purpose. Most of them would speculate that it's just another way for the government to find you for tax purposes.

Had it been intended to be used backstage, by companies, with no involvement of the public, I would not be criticizing it, obviously.

Had it embraced a logical, meaningful, and useful structure as outlined by plodder, I firmly believe it would by now have been implemented.

BoatMad

I find it laughable and almost amazing that people want a post code that facilitates companies doing marketing analysis or whatever.

Eircode is a post code, a method of dealing with Irelands significant non-unique address issue , and such an issue has allowed An Post to enjoy certain advantages over couriers and other delivery business, that Eircode seeks to correct , Also it can be used by emergency services to remove confusion.

The main criticism advanced here and elsewhere ( leaving aside the rant bridage), is that Eircode is not in the form of a human inspect-able hierarchical code structure. ( leaving aside how such physical hierarchy is to be established).

This to me,, is a huge advantage of Eircode, The principles of modern Data Protection, are that information provided by me to someone else, is only used for the purposes that I agree to. in This regards Eircode is a suitable post code, thats all and thats all it should be . Eircode is a method of whereby I agree to provide YOU with a unique reference to my postal address for the purposes that I decide , nothing else.

IN fact if I was doing it , it would be completely random, the sort code was a sop to AN Post. That way the code would only be meaningful to companies that licensed the GeoDirectory and this provides controls on its use. IN this regard its rather like LOC8

To suggest that a code should be built that facilitates inspection by humans, then allows unscrupulous operators to build non official databases, blanket mail areas, or just lets a nosy parker , discover what part of the country I live in , perhaps down to a town land. No thanks to that


Legitimate companies that wish to use Eircodes for data analysis , have to ask me to agree to that , secondly they can easily interrogate GeoDirectory and build appropriate " analysis areas", right down to Townland if necessary ( since they can extract such information) . They can also use the Geo Co-ords, to build any spatial analysis area if they wish

Hence to suggest that Eircode cant be used for this purpose, simply , because , joe nosey parker public, cant manual interrogate the code, is one of Eircodes biggest advantages

On a purely technical basis , Hierarchical namespaes , tend to result in very long , difficult to remember structures, and they are inefficient as "blocks" of that namespace are inherently allocated even when no use is made of them. Furthermore to avoid transcription errors , arising from manual inspection, you really need the last identifier to be unique, or else the code can legitimately point to an address in a completely different area. This would result in either huge ( comparatively ) namespaces or the issue where due to population growth, certain hierarchies get used up. IN this regard a comparison between IPv4 and IPv6 internet addressing shows the issues around hierarchical addressing and the huge increase in namespace code size to handle increasing numbers and still retain some sense of physical hierarchy. ( which is requires in IP routing)

There is no technical or use advantage in having a human inspectable code , humans dont sort deliveries , computers do

plodder

BoatMad wrote: »

I find it laughable and almost amazing that people want a post code that facilitates companies doing marketing analysis or whatever.

Really? I'm sure some companies will license Eircode to do just that.

Eircode is a post code, a method of dealing with Irelands significant non-unique address issue , and such an issue has allowed An Post to enjoy certain advantages over couriers and other delivery business, that Eircode seeks to correct , Also it can be used by emergency services to remove confusion.

The main criticism advanced here and elsewhere ( leaving aside the rant bridage), is that Eircode is not in the form of a human inspect-able hierarchical code structure. ( leaving aside how such physical hierarchy is to be established).

This to me,, is a huge advantage of Eircode, The principles of modern Data Protection, are that information provided by me to someone else, is only used for the purposes that I agree to. in This regards Eircode is a suitable post code, thats all and thats all it should be . Eircode is a method of whereby I agree to provide YOU with a unique reference to my postal address for the purposes that I decide , nothing else.

You couldn't be more wrong about this. Eircode is a threat to privacy more than it is beneficial from a privacy pov. Your point seems to be that a random code discloses no information, but what you forget is that "nosey parkers" can lookup the code for free and pinpoint your exact location. There is no avoiding this with a monolithic code like what you are suggesting below (at least Eircode has one level of structure to it). But, the one level of structure that Eircode has, was crippled by the crazy design of the routing keys.

IN fact if I was doing it , it would be completely random, the sort code was a sop to AN Post. That way the code would only be meaningful to companies that licensed the GeoDirectory and this provides controls on its use. IN this regard its rather like LOC8

To suggest that a code should be built that facilitates inspection by humans, then allows unscrupulous operators to build non official databases, blanket mail areas, or just lets a nosy parker , discover what part of the country I live in , perhaps down to a town land. No thanks to that

That's a bit like An Post arguing that postal addresses should be a random code, rather than hierarchically organised as they are, because people other than themselves might (unscrupulously) gain some benefit from it.

It's ludicrous, and symptomatic of the attitude that postcodes don't belong to the public in any meaningful way. Instead, you are expected to use them in the restricted way intended, and then pay for all real uses after that.

The Postcode implementation board rightly argued that postcodes shouldn't be private or hidden. They should be open and usable by anyone who wants to. They shouldn't have to pay a rent-seeking toll for the privilege. By all means, for certain genuinely useful value added services, pay for them, but not in principle just to decode a jumbled up code.

Legitimate companies that wish to use Eircodes for data analysis , have to ask me to agree to that , secondly they can easily interrogate GeoDirectory and build appropriate " analysis areas", right down to Townland if necessary ( since they can extract such information) . They can also use the Geo Co-ords, to build any spatial analysis area if they wish

Hence to suggest that Eircode cant be used for this purpose, simply , because , joe nosey parker public, cant manual interrogate the code, is one of Eircodes biggest advantages

As above, it's a big advantage for the people who want to monetise it, but not for the public.

On a purely technical basis , Hierarchical namespaes , tend to result in very long , difficult to remember structures, and they are inefficient as "blocks" of that namespace are inherently allocated even when no use is made of them. Furthermore to avoid transcription errors , arising from manual inspection, you really need the last identifier to be unique, or else the code can legitimately point to an address in a completely different area. This would result in either huge ( comparatively ) namespaces or the issue where due to population growth, certain hierarchies get used up.

Not true. Hierarchical codes aren't necessarily longer (the one I suggested is the same size as Eircode). They are easier to remember because there is more meaning associated with them (eg GY might represent Galway) even the following characters would be meaningful in the sense that they represent specific areas.

IN this regard a comparison between IPv4 and IPv6 internet addressing shows the issues around hierarchical addressing and the huge increase in namespace code size to handle increasing numbers and still retain some sense of physical hierarchy. ( which is requires in IP routing)

Not sure what your point is here. IPv6 was devised primarily to increase the number of possible internet addresses. I don't see the relevance to this discussion.

There is no technical or use advantage in having a human inspectable code , humans dont sort deliveries , computers do

But, as other posters have pointed out, humans are expected to remember and use them. It was a fatal mistake not to recognise this in the design of Eircode. And as has been pointed out, small businesses shouldn't be forced to pay for software to solve an artificially created problem. I understand why someone who wants to make money from selling such software would disagree though.

It is ludicrous that this conversation is taking place after the project is rolled out.

BoatMad

plodder wrote: »

Really? I'm sure some companies will license Eircode to do just that.

No issue, with that, licensing acts as a control , but its not the primary purpose of a postal code, and even more so , its not the primary purpose if Eircode.

You couldn't be more wrong about this. Eircode is a threat to privacy more than it is beneficial from a privacy pov. Your point seems to be that a random code discloses no information, but what you forget is that "nosey parkers" can lookup the code for free and pinpoint your exact location. There is no avoiding this with a monolithic code like what you are suggesting below (at least Eircode has one level of structure to it). But, the one level of structure that Eircode has, was crippled by the crazy design of the routing keys.

any code, hierarchical , linear, of just a hash key, can be looked up if the facilities are provided. But a human readable key can be interrogated without any control. whereas a Eircode must have a computerised lookup which can be controlled ( using the licensing system ) Eircode discloses very little information on casual inspection unlike hierarchical codes. Thats a very good thing

That's a bit like An Post arguing that postal addresses should be a random code, rather than hierarchically organised as they are, because people other than themselves might (unscrupulously) gain some benefit from it.

It's ludicrous, and symptomatic of the attitude that postcodes don't belong to the public in any meaningful way. Instead, you are expected to use them in the restricted way intended, and then pay for all real uses after that.

They DONT belong to the " public", mine essentially belongs to me, and I control its dissemination ( as best I can)

The Postcode implementation board rightly argued that postcodes shouldn't be private or hidden. They should be open and usable by anyone who wants to. They shouldn't have to pay a rent-seeking toll for the privilege. By all means, for certain genuinely useful value added services, pay for them, but not in principle just to decode a jumbled up code.

The actual monetary value is entirely subject to change, the principle that the database must be licensed is a very goodone.

"people" dont need to decode postcodes, we use computers for that.

As above, it's a big advantage for the people who want to monetise it, but not for the public.

The licensing is primarily to cover the adminsitratiuion of Eircode and updating GeoDirectory ( and paying the OSI and ANpost)

I agree the costs of access are too high, but thats a different debate

Not true. Hierarchical codes aren't necessarily longer (the one I suggested is the same size as Eircode). They are easier to remember because there is more meaning associated with them (eg GY might represent Galway) even the following characters would be meaningful in the sense that they represent specific areas.

I have no desire that you can determine anything from my postcode, unless I specifically agree to give it to you for a defined purpose. I also disagree with county location codes on car numbers plates too.

Not sure what your point is here. IPv6 was devised primarily to increase the number of possible internet addresses. I don't see the relevance to this discussion.

The reason IPv6 was brought in was to address the issues of restricted adders space due to ipv4 inefficient hierarchical structure, only 18% of IPv4 address where in use in 2014, yet the top levels were fully exhausted

But, as other posters have pointed out, humans are expected to remember and use them. It was a fatal mistake not to recognise this in the design of Eircode. And as has been pointed out, small businesses shouldn't be forced to pay for software to solve an artificially created problem. I understand why someone who wants to make money from selling such software would disagree though.

Oh for goodness sake its a 7 digit number, can you remember your mobile phone number, I can remember my name bank account number ( 8 digits) , my phone , my eircode. ( and I suffer from a number sequencing disorder )

It is ludicrous that this conversation is taking place after the project is rolled out.

whats ludicrous is people arguing that Eircode isn't fit for its intended purpose, when it clearly is, arguing that the GPO doesn't have a eircode, that Google or satnavs arnt implementing it , or that logistics software isn't implementing it , or that every day its increasing its usage , the ranters are like Commical Ali" as the US tanks rolled over his foot.

"No No Eircode is flawed, No, Smoking doesnt cause cancer", rant rant as more and more Eircode uses appear every day


Nothing is perfect , but Eircode clearly works for what it was intended

plodder

BoatMad wrote: »

No issue, with that, licensing acts as a control , but its not the primary purpose of a postal code, and even more so , its not the primary purpose if Eircode.

With respect, the primary purpose of eircode has never been clear, and that is probably at the root of most of these issues.

any code, hierarchical , linear, of just a hash key, can be looked up if the facilities are provided. But a human readable key can be interrogated without any control. whereas a Eircode must have a computerised lookup which can be controlled ( using the licensing system ) Eircode discloses very little information on casual inspection unlike hierarchical codes. Thats a very good thing

I think the reasoning above is naive. Commercial licenses are not a good way to drive information security, and it doesn't address at all, the point that an Eircode itself is a unique identifying token, and will circulate completely independently of the license system. Eg when you enter your Eircode on a website, you have published a token containing a pointer to your house to someone who has no relationship with Eircode.

The main point you are missing is that with a hierarchical code, the owner has more control. If I want to tell you what county I live in, I give you the first two characters. If I want to disclose a finer grained location then I give you the next piece. With that I know that nobody can determine my exact address. If I am looking up a store location on Lidl's website, this might be what I do. If I am replying to a survey, it might be what I do. But, I only disclose my full code to someone who actually needs to know exactly where I live (if they need to deliver something or visit my house) and I expect them to take appropriate care with that information.

With Eircode, it's all or nothing. You have to give the full seven character code to everyone, even in cases where they don't want to know where you live. In those cases, it is actual hassle, because you are providing personal information that they don't want. They don't want the hassle of having to look after it.

They DONT belong to the " public", mine essentially belongs to me, and I control its dissemination ( as best I can)

Right, they belong to you - not to Eircode or An Post.

The licensing is primarily to cover the adminsitratiuion of Eircode and updating GeoDirectory ( and paying the OSI and ANpost)

I agree the costs of access are too high, but thats a different debate

Ironically, a more flexible design could have provided some information for free and other information at a cost higher than what they are charging because it would only be used by businesses that really need it.

A one size fits all policy has to sell it for less than they might otherwise make in some segments.

Oh for goodness sake its a 7 digit number, can you remember your mobile phone number, I can remember my name bank account number ( 8 digits) , my phone , my eircode. ( and I suffer from a number sequencing disorder )

It's a seven character code, not a 7 digit number. Structured information is easier to remember than random information. There's plenty of research on this, but people get to recognise combinations of letters as symbols or tokens in themselves.

I'm sure if I tried hard enough I could remember it. But, I definitely won't remember my own and my parents one down the road. Or the mother in law's 40 miles away. What benefit would memorising any of them be? I remember my bank ac number, my credit card number because I use them all the time.

BoatMad

With respect, the primary purpose of eircode has never been clear, and that is probably at the root of most of these issues.

The primary purpose of Eircode was to deal with the issue of non unique addresses that is peculiar to Ireland. This was seen as a major disadvantage to the development of the courier business, emergency services etc. It was not seen by AN Post as an advantage

I think the reasoning above is naive. Commercial licenses are not a good way to drive information security, and it doesn't address at all, the point that an Eircode itself is a unique identifying token, and will circulate completely independently of the license system. Eg when you enter your Eircode on a website, you have published a token containing a pointer to your house to someone who has no relationship with Eircode.

Licensing, commercial or not, is ONE way to try and control information security. If you can deduce nothing from the code in itself , then to decode it you need GeoDirectory. Thats good

The main point you are missing is that with a hierarchical code, the owner has more control. If I want to tell you what county I live in, I give you the first two characters. If I want to disclose a finer grained location then I give you the next piece. With that I know that nobody can determine my exact address. If I am looking up a store location on Lidl's website, this might be what I do. If I am replying to a survey, it might be what I do. But, I only disclose my full code to someone who actually needs to know exactly where I live (if they need to deliver something or visit my house) and I expect them to take appropriate care with that information.

The purpose of Eircode and any postal code , is to provide a unique identifier to your mailing address not your location per se
[/QUOTE]
With Eircode, it's all or nothing. You have to give the full seven character code to everyone, even in cases where they don't want to know where you live. In those cases, it is actual hassle, because you are providing personal information that they don't want. They don't want the hassle of having to look after it[/QUOTE]

the point is that a postal code is supplied to be a identifier to you , not your town land, mail is delivered to you after all

if you want to debate the " lidl" type nonsense, sure just select your nearest town from a scrolling list easy pleasy . Postal codes are not primarily designed for that application. If Lidl were to license geodirectories, theres are number if options open to them to locate your nearest store, including fully automated lookup, based on you browser giving out your relocation , or merely using you rIP address

Partial Eircode debates , im afraid its just nonsense

BoatMad

With respect, the primary purpose of eircode has never been clear, and that is probably at the root of most of these issues.

The primary purpose of Eircode was to deal with the issue of non unique addresses that is peculiar to Ireland. This was seen as a major disadvantage to the development of the courier business, emergency services etc. It was not seen by AN Post as an advantage

I think the reasoning above is naive. Commercial licenses are not a good way to drive information security, and it doesn't address at all, the point that an Eircode itself is a unique identifying token, and will circulate completely independently of the license system. Eg when you enter your Eircode on a website, you have published a token containing a pointer to your house to someone who has no relationship with Eircode.

Licensing, commercial or not, is ONE way to try and control information security. If you can deduce nothing from the code in itself , then to decode it you need GeoDirectory. Thats good

The main point you are missing is that with a hierarchical code, the owner has more control. If I want to tell you what county I live in, I give you the first two characters. If I want to disclose a finer grained location then I give you the next piece. With that I know that nobody can determine my exact address. If I am looking up a store location on Lidl's website, this might be what I do. If I am replying to a survey, it might be what I do. But, I only disclose my full code to someone who actually needs to know exactly where I live (if they need to deliver something or visit my house) and I expect them to take appropriate care with that information.

The purpose of Eircode and any postal code , is to provide a unique identifier to your mailing address not your location per se
[/QUOTE]
With Eircode, it's all or nothing. You have to give the full seven character code to everyone, even in cases where they don't want to know where you live. In those cases, it is actual hassle, because you are providing personal information that they don't want. They don't want the hassle of having to look after it[/QUOTE]

the point is that a postal code is supplied to be a identifier to you , not your town land, mail is delivered to you after all

if you want to debate the " lidl" type nonsense, sure just select your nearest town from a scrolling list easy pleasy . Postal codes are not primarily designed for that application. If Lidl were to license geodirectories, theres are number if options open to them to locate your nearest store, including fully automated lookup, based on you browser giving out your relocation , or merely using you rIP address

Partial Eircode debates , im afraid its just nonsense

plodder

BoatMad wrote: »

The primary purpose of Eircode was to deal with the issue of non unique addresses that is peculiar to Ireland. This was seen as a major disadvantage to the development of the courier business, emergency services etc. It was not seen by AN Post as an advantage

That was only one purpose. There are many others.

Licensing, commercial or not, is ONE way to try and control information security. If you can deduce nothing from the code in itself , then to decode it you need GeoDirectory. Thats good

Take the example you used. You were dead against the idea of marketing companies freely using a public postcode. But, when I said they would probably license Eircode, you said that is fine. In other words it's not about protecting privacy at all. So long as they are paying for access, you're fine with it.

the point is that a postal code is supplied to be a identifier to you , not your town land, mail is delivered to you after all

Sure, when you need to have something delivered you provide your full postcode.

if you want to debate the " lidl" type nonsense, sure just select your nearest town from a scrolling list easy pleasy . Postal codes are not primarily designed for that application. If Lidl were to license geodirectories, theres are number if options open to them to locate your nearest store, including fully automated lookup, based on you browser giving out your relocation , or merely using you rIP address

IP addresses aren't great for locating people. My current IP address has me in the wrong country. No, the simplest thing would have been for us to have a multi level code, and each website would just ask for first 2, 5 or else full 7 chars of your code. Apart from saving key strokes, whenever someone asks for your full 7 char code, you would ask - do they really need that? With Eircode it's not possible to ask that question.

Mountainsandh

Boatmad, your message seems to be : Eircode is great for commercial/economics purposes, all other debate is irrelevant nonsense.

Thing is, Eircode involves people, the public.

So the public's perception, people's level of comfort with the design of Eircode, are indeed hugely relevant.

And like Plodder put it, it was never clearly stated that Eircode was designed for the single purpose of increasing some companies' profit. (which is what it's about really, isn't it ?)

Maybe had the literature been clearer about its purpose, if you think that is its only purpose, people would not rant about it.

sesswhat

BoatMad wrote: »

Licensing, commercial or not, is ONE way to try and control information security. If you can deduce nothing from the code in itself , then to decode it you need GeoDirectory. Thats good

It may have had limited success 30 years ago. I think it won't be long before the complete location data gets into the wild however, and that genie will be out of the bottle.

ukoda

sesswhat wrote: »

It may have had limited success 30 years ago. I think it won't be long before the complete location data gets into the wild however, and that genie will be out of the bottle.

Every houses location data is already in the wild and the sky hasn't fallen.

Mountainsandh

ukoda wrote: »

Every houses location data is already in the wild and the sky hasn't fallen.

Not with house owner's details linked as far as I know ?

ukoda

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Not with house owner's details linked as far as I know ?

He said houses location data. Your houses location is public, with or without an eircode

Eircode does not link homeowners data either, a company or an individual can decide to link a homeowner to an eircode in a database somewhere, as they can do now for all unique addresses in the world.

Mountainsandh

ukoda wrote: »

He said houses location data. Your houses location is public, with or without an eircode

Eircode does not link homeowners data either, a company or an individual can decide to link a homeowner to an eircode in a database somewhere, as they can do now for all unique addresses in the world.

hhmm. My Eircode links to an identifier, as Mr M has a company registered to our address. I was a bit shocked that the name of our family should be overshadowed by the name of the company, it must be just company names coming up then.

ukoda

Mountainsandh wrote: »

hhmm. My Eircode links to an identifier, as Mr M has a company registered to our address. I was a bit shocked that the name of our family should be overshadowed by the name of the company, it must be just company names coming up then.

Yes the geodirectory does have company names as far as I'm aware, if you register your company to your home address then you are putting that information in the public domain for anyone to access, sites like solocheck.ie etc will list the information for anyone to look up

Alan_P

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Not with house owner's details linked as far as I know ?

Pragmatically, Google has linked home addresses to individuals anyway. If I put my address into Google, within the first 20 results there are references to every adult who lives there.

In particular, www.missedcallireland.com gives home address and name given a phone number :- Google has indexed the names and addresses, and will return names/phone numbers given an address. I presume that site doesn't work for ex-directory numbers, but there are other public databases for Google to index on anyway.

Mountainsandh

Just tried Google there, out of curiosity.
None of our names, or even neighbours', come up when googling the address. Mr M's company name comes up 2 pages in, but without any name attached, and a few obituaries come up, without immediate names of living people at a certain address. Some links to co Council planning applications might definitely identify some people around alright.

So my own address in any case, is still relatively private.
It means that if I enter my Eircode, linked to a form with my name and address, I am forever linking my Eircode to myself on the internet, in the event that the contents of the form are made publicly available.

Of course like mentioned above, with Data Protection laws this really shouldn't happen, bar hacking and leaks.

You know how it is though, for me it's similar to my phone number, I don't like to spread it around too much to these commercial outfits, too much small print to be read in a lot of cases to be sure you won't be getting junk from it.

ukoda

Mountainsandh wrote: »

It means that if I enter my Eircode, linked to a form with my name and address, I am forever linking my Eircode to myself on the internet, in the event that the contents of the form are made publicly available.

Take eircode out of the equation and your statement is exactly the same, I'm not sure what relevance it has to eircode.

If you fill that same form in now without an eircode, you are "forever linking" your address to your name and probably your phone number etc etc. Eircode adds no extra risk

Mountainsandh

ukoda wrote: »

Take eircode out of the equation and your statement is exactly the same, I'm not sure what relevance it has to eircode.

If you fill that same form in now without an eircode, you are "forever linking" your address to your name and probably your phone number etc etc. Eircode adds no extra risk

It does in the situations that had been alluded to, such as being asked an Eircode for purely statistical quick location purposes, in a survey for example, or by a shop. Whereas in these situations supplying an area code or part of a code would not support that link to private information.

ukoda

Mountainsandh wrote: »

It does in the situations that had been alluded to, such as being asked an Eircode for purely statistical quick location purposes, in a survey for example, or by a shop. Whereas in these situations supplying an area code or part of a code would not support that link to private information.

When it comes to research they either want your exact address (like the CSO to pinpoint you) or they just want to know if you're urban or rural and maybe the county, the criteria for research is never people from area BT1 nor is it ever collated and presented as such. The criteria used is more like "urban, rural, young families, pre family, professionals, renters, empty nesters. Dublin, Midlands, west, south, north. Socio demographics such as ABC1 - C1C2

Eircode is your full address, if you don't want to give your full address and if the person requesting it isn't happy with just your routing key, then I would suspect they will take a townland or nearest town to get your general area.