5 years for stabbing a toddler to death with a scissors

sonofenoch · 01-06-2017 01:04PM #1

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/hazel-waters-jailed-for-five-years-for-killing-two-year-old-son-1.3104179

''I don't remember doing it your honor'........5 bleeding yrs, deary me

01-06-2017 01:06PM

It was a mother so mental illness. Alan Hawe on the other hand...

strandroad · 01-06-2017 01:09PM

Omackeral wrote: »

It was a mother so mental illness. Alan Hawe on the other hand...

Alan Hawe did not think his family were clones or fakes substituted for real people.

Whether she should be out of a mental institution is another question, like that man who cut out his landlord's heart.

01-06-2017 01:17PM

Well if she thought the child was a fake or a clone then prison certainly isn't for her, I agree with that. Mental hospital quick fast. It seems mothers get the mental illness 'pass' quicker than fathers do. Adrian Dunne and Alan Hawe were monsters and vilified (rightly so) but it just seems like women must've been ill because a mother couldn't be evil. Could be way off in that assumption, just feels that way to me.

erica74 · 01-06-2017 01:22PM

Omackeral wrote: »

Well if she thought the child was a fake or a clone then prison certainly isn't for her, I agree with that. Mental hospital quick fast. It seems mothers get the mental illness 'pass' quicker than fathers do. Adrian Dunne and Alan Hawe were monsters and vilified (rightly so) but it just seems like women must've been ill because a mother couldn't be evil. Could be way off in that assumption, just feels that way to me.

I certainly don't feel that "mothers get a pass".
I take each case on its own merits and in this case, from reading what information is available in the media, the woman was seriously mentally ill.

01-06-2017 01:30PM

I guess I'm just thinking back to the case in London last year when the Irish mum killed herself and her 7 year old son and it was basically just put down as a tragedy. I dunno, it could be in my head but I think fathers get the automatic evil bestowed on them whereas the mothers "had to be" ill because it's beyond the pale for a mum.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/deaths-of-irish-mother-and-son-uk-police-not-seeking-anyone-else-1.2907325?mode=amp

Kimbot · 01-06-2017 01:34PM

Sentence is backdated and off on good behaviour means she could be out in the next couple of months :eek:

ohnonotgmail · 01-06-2017 01:36PM

jonnycivic wrote: »

Sentence is backdated and off on good behaviour means she could be out in the next couple of months :eek:

backdated to when she was brought into custody which is perfectly normal. She was sentenced to 5 years in prison. She has already spent 20 months in prison.

seamus · 01-06-2017 01:43PM

Omackeral wrote: »

I guess I'm just thinking back to the case in London last year when the Irish mum killed herself and her 7 year old son and it was basically just put down as a tragedy. I dunno, it could be in my head but I think fathers get the automatic evil bestowed on them whereas the mothers "had to be" ill because it's beyond the pale for a mum.

I actually have to disagree entirely with this. I can only imagine that you didn't read about the Hawe case until a few days had passed.

When the Hawe case first came out, everyone, the media, people on the street, absolutely everyone, thought it was a case of a man who had suffered a mental breakdown. He was described as a loving father to a happy family, pillar of the community, etc etc. The only thing which could have caused this was some extraordinary mental breakdown in an otherwise brilliant man.

It was only as the details began to emerge 24 hours after that it became clear that he was far from the saintly person everyone assumed.

You're totally barking up the wrong tree if you think Hawe was immediately branded as an evil maniac.

ChikiChiki · 01-06-2017 01:45PM

An ex Sinn Fein councillor got 12 years this morning for false imprisonment. What he did was wrong but 12 years is OTT. Thats a political jailing if ever I seen one.

My point is that there is no consistency in our judicial sentencing as highlighted between the two cases.

Mr. Incognito · 01-06-2017 01:46PM

This lady was not mentally well and I'd be saving the Judgments.

People always think they are so rigeous but I'd not be judging this woman for one second.

Her life is ruined and she has to live with the fact she killed her child on the mistaken belief it was a fake switched baby.

ohnonotgmail · 01-06-2017 01:47PM

ChikiChiki wrote: »

An ex Sinn Fein councillor got 12 years this morning for false imprisonment. What he did was wrong but 12 years is OTT. Thats a political jailing if ever I seen one.

My point is that there is no consistency in our judicial sentencing as highlighted between the two cases.

there was a little bit more than false imprisonment involved. he tortured a man. 12 years is good enough for that scumbag.

OldNotWIse · 01-06-2017 01:48PM

There does seem to be a lean or pattern towards lenience where the mother is the perpetrator. Madness.

Your Face · 01-06-2017 01:50PM

ChikiChiki wrote: »

An ex Sinn Fein councillor got 12 years this morning for false imprisonment. What he did was wrong but 12 years is OTT. Thats a political jailing if ever I seen one.

My point is that there is no consistency in our judicial sentencing as highlighted between the two cases.

Faith restored.

ChikiChiki · 01-06-2017 01:50PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

there was a little bit more than false imprisonment involved. he tortured a man. 12 years is good enough for that scumbag.

A scumbag no doubt but there are murderers, pedophiles and rapists who get far more lenient sentences. My question is, where is the consistency? Its just not there.

01-06-2017 01:50PM

My memory of it was that most people were saying he was evil with an absolute minority defending him and waiting for the facts to come out. I recall a few people getting worked up about a tabloid newspaper going with a crass headline but that was more to with Clodagh being made out to be fodder. My recollection is almost universal disgust from the off once a gas leak or that had been ruled out. I know a few gombeens and parishioners did their best to keep his character all the way.

Anyway, don't mean to get into the Hawe thing all over again. It's just my opinion that men get the evil tag easier than women in these situations.

minikin · 01-06-2017 01:51PM

Very odd article... the child's poor father is practically disregarded in it... a forgotten victim. Will the 'remember clodagh' campaigners do the same for him? Will they denounce the fact that mental illness was used as an excuse in this case?

Det Sgt O’Hara agreed with Brendan Grehan SC, defending Ms Waters, that she had been married to a man named Saleem Khan and had taken a barring order out against him after he took Hassan away from her.

He wasn't even afforded the respect of a proper title: "Dr Mohammed Saleem Khan", just... "a man named Saleem Khan" unlike Det Sgt O'Hara, Ms Waters or Brendan Grehan SC...

I'd also wonder if the sentence would have been so lenient had she hailed from Ballymun rather than Ballybrack.

ohnonotgmail · 01-06-2017 01:51PM

ChikiChiki wrote: »

A scumbag no doubt but there are murderers, pedophiles and rapists who get far more lenient sentences. My question is, where is the consistency? Its just not there.

he well deserved the 12 years. that others got lighter sentences is a failing of the justice system. this case shows that sometimes it works very well.

Kimbot · 01-06-2017 01:52PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

backdated to when she was brought into custody which is perfectly normal. She was sentenced to 5 years in prison. She has already spent 20 months in prison.

Her sentence was backdated to October 16th, 2014 when she first went into custody.

Thats 32 odd months by now. 1/4 remission would be 1.25 years off the 5 years meaning she is due out in the coming weeks, July 2017.

ChikiChiki · 01-06-2017 01:53PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

he well deserved the 12 years. that others got lighter sentences is a failing of the justice system. this case shows that sometimes it works very well.

Sometimes isnt good enough! It always should work well. There would be a lot less scumbags on the streets.

ohnonotgmail · 01-06-2017 01:54PM

jonnycivic wrote: »

Thats 32 odd months by now. 1/4 remission would be 1.25 years off the 5 years meaning she is due out in the coming weeks, July 2017.

very poor maths by me i admit. but even by my very poor maths she still has 13 months to go, assuming she does get 25% remission.

ohnonotgmail · 01-06-2017 01:55PM

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Sometimes isnt good enough! It always should work well. There would be a lot less scumbags on the streets.

no justice system is perfect. but at least this scumbag is off the streets for a long time. A pity they didnt catch whoever filmed it.

arayess · 01-06-2017 01:56PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

there was a little bit more than false imprisonment involved. he tortured a man. 12 years is good enough for that scumbag.

for doing his civic juty - albeit a but misguided - shocking sentence.
I hope he wins an appeal

a rapist would get about half dowdalls sentence

not to mention when dowdall wasn't charged with gangland or paramilitary crimes , why was he is the special criminal court?

volchitsa · 01-06-2017 01:56PM

Omackeral wrote: »

I guess I'm just thinking back to the case in London last year when the Irish mum killed herself and her 7 year old son and it was basically just put down as a tragedy. I dunno, it could be in my head but I think fathers get the automatic evil bestowed on them whereas the mothers "had to be" ill because it's beyond the pale for a mum.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/deaths-of-irish-mother-and-son-uk-police-not-seeking-anyone-else-1.2907325?mode=amp

I think you think that because that's what you want to think.

What about the son who hacked his parents to death with an axe in Donegal a couple of years back, was it because he was a son and not a father that he didn't go to jail? Of course it wasn't, it was because he was clearly mentally ill.

When there is evidence of mental illness the person doesn't go to prison. The reality is that women almost never murder their partner and children except when they are mentally ill, men sometimes do so for reasons of control or revenge. You may not want there to be that difference, but it is there.

KERSPLAT! · 01-06-2017 01:57PM

The poor child. I don't know anything about the case only what I've read in the OPs link. I'll not pass judgement. Experts have given their opinion and that's enough for me.

ohnonotgmail · 01-06-2017 01:57PM

arayess wrote: »

for doing his civic juty - albeit a but misguided - shocking sentence.
I hope he wins an appeal

a rapist would get about half dowdalls sentence

not to mention when dowdall wasn't charged with gangland or paramilitary crimes , why was he is the special criminal court?

his civic duty? i didnt realise he was a member of an garda siochana. he did claim to be a member of the ira so this type of thuggery would be par for the course.

Kimbot · 01-06-2017 01:59PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

very poor maths by me i admit. but even by my very poor maths she still has 13 months to go, assuming she does get 25% remission.

my brain ain't working too well either haha yeah so a year left. Still tho I still think in a years time is she in the right frame of mind to be let back out into public?

ohnonotgmail · 01-06-2017 02:00PM

jonnycivic wrote: »

my brain ain't working too well either haha yeah so a year left. Still tho I still think in a years time is she in the right frame of mind to be let back out into public?

she has 4 years of court ordered treatment after that.

Kimbot · 01-06-2017 02:00PM

volchitsa wrote: »

When there is evidence of mental illness the person doesn't go to prison. The reality is that women almost never murder their partner and children except when they are mentally ill, men sometimes do so for reasons of control or revenge. You may not want there to be that difference, but it is there.

Women almost never murder their partner unless their mentally ill?? You do know about the scissor sisters case don't you??

El Weirdo · 01-06-2017 02:02PM

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

I'll not pass judgement. Experts have given their opinion and that's enough for me.

Come on! That's not how it works in these here parts. You should know that.

volchitsa · 01-06-2017 02:03PM

jonnycivic wrote: »

Women almost never murder their partner unless their mentally ill?? You do know about the scissor sisters case don't you??

Why don't you read what I said before going off on one like that. :rolleyes:

5 years for stabbing a toddler to death with a scissors

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