5 years for stabbing a toddler to death with a scissors

sonofenoch

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/hazel-waters-jailed-for-five-years-for-killing-two-year-old-son-1.3104179


''I don't remember doing it your honor'........5 bleeding yrs, deary me

It was a mother so mental illness. Alan Hawe on the other hand...

strandroad

Omackeral wrote: »

It was a mother so mental illness. Alan Hawe on the other hand...

Alan Hawe did not think his family were clones or fakes substituted for real people.

Whether she should be out of a mental institution is another question, like that man who cut out his landlord's heart.

Well if she thought the child was a fake or a clone then prison certainly isn't for her, I agree with that. Mental hospital quick fast. It seems mothers get the mental illness 'pass' quicker than fathers do. Adrian Dunne and Alan Hawe were monsters and vilified (rightly so) but it just seems like women must've been ill because a mother couldn't be evil. Could be way off in that assumption, just feels that way to me.

erica74

Omackeral wrote: »

Well if she thought the child was a fake or a clone then prison certainly isn't for her, I agree with that. Mental hospital quick fast. It seems mothers get the mental illness 'pass' quicker than fathers do. Adrian Dunne and Alan Hawe were monsters and vilified (rightly so) but it just seems like women must've been ill because a mother couldn't be evil. Could be way off in that assumption, just feels that way to me.

I certainly don't feel that "mothers get a pass".
I take each case on its own merits and in this case, from reading what information is available in the media, the woman was seriously mentally ill.

I guess I'm just thinking back to the case in London last year when the Irish mum killed herself and her 7 year old son and it was basically just put down as a tragedy. I dunno, it could be in my head but I think fathers get the automatic evil bestowed on them whereas the mothers "had to be" ill because it's beyond the pale for a mum.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/deaths-of-irish-mother-and-son-uk-police-not-seeking-anyone-else-1.2907325?mode=amp

Kimbot

Sentence is backdated and off on good behaviour means she could be out in the next couple of months :eek:

ohnonotgmail

jonnycivic wrote: »

Sentence is backdated and off on good behaviour means she could be out in the next couple of months :eek:

backdated to when she was brought into custody which is perfectly normal. She was sentenced to 5 years in prison. She has already spent 20 months in prison.

seamus

Omackeral wrote: »

I guess I'm just thinking back to the case in London last year when the Irish mum killed herself and her 7 year old son and it was basically just put down as a tragedy. I dunno, it could be in my head but I think fathers get the automatic evil bestowed on them whereas the mothers "had to be" ill because it's beyond the pale for a mum.

I actually have to disagree entirely with this. I can only imagine that you didn't read about the Hawe case until a few days had passed.

When the Hawe case first came out, everyone, the media, people on the street, absolutely everyone, thought it was a case of a man who had suffered a mental breakdown. He was described as a loving father to a happy family, pillar of the community, etc etc. The only thing which could have caused this was some extraordinary mental breakdown in an otherwise brilliant man.

It was only as the details began to emerge 24 hours after that it became clear that he was far from the saintly person everyone assumed.

You're totally barking up the wrong tree if you think Hawe was immediately branded as an evil maniac.

ChikiChiki

An ex Sinn Fein councillor got 12 years this morning for false imprisonment. What he did was wrong but 12 years is OTT. Thats a political jailing if ever I seen one.

My point is that there is no consistency in our judicial sentencing as highlighted between the two cases.

Mr. Incognito

This lady was not mentally well and I'd be saving the Judgments.

People always think they are so rigeous but I'd not be judging this woman for one second.

Her life is ruined and she has to live with the fact she killed her child on the mistaken belief it was a fake switched baby.

ohnonotgmail

ChikiChiki wrote: »

An ex Sinn Fein councillor got 12 years this morning for false imprisonment. What he did was wrong but 12 years is OTT. Thats a political jailing if ever I seen one.

My point is that there is no consistency in our judicial sentencing as highlighted between the two cases.

there was a little bit more than false imprisonment involved. he tortured a man. 12 years is good enough for that scumbag.

OldNotWIse

There does seem to be a lean or pattern towards lenience where the mother is the perpetrator. Madness.

Your Face

ChikiChiki wrote: »

An ex Sinn Fein councillor got 12 years this morning for false imprisonment. What he did was wrong but 12 years is OTT. Thats a political jailing if ever I seen one.

My point is that there is no consistency in our judicial sentencing as highlighted between the two cases.

Faith restored.

ChikiChiki

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

there was a little bit more than false imprisonment involved. he tortured a man. 12 years is good enough for that scumbag.

A scumbag no doubt but there are murderers, pedophiles and rapists who get far more lenient sentences. My question is, where is the consistency? Its just not there.

My memory of it was that most people were saying he was evil with an absolute minority defending him and waiting for the facts to come out. I recall a few people getting worked up about a tabloid newspaper going with a crass headline but that was more to with Clodagh being made out to be fodder. My recollection is almost universal disgust from the off once a gas leak or that had been ruled out. I know a few gombeens and parishioners did their best to keep his character all the way.

Anyway, don't mean to get into the Hawe thing all over again. It's just my opinion that men get the evil tag easier than women in these situations.

minikin

Very odd article... the child's poor father is practically disregarded in it... a forgotten victim. Will the 'remember clodagh' campaigners do the same for him? Will they denounce the fact that mental illness was used as an excuse in this case?

Det Sgt O’Hara agreed with Brendan Grehan SC, defending Ms Waters, that she had been married to a man named Saleem Khan and had taken a barring order out against him after he took Hassan away from her.

He wasn't even afforded the respect of a proper title: "Dr Mohammed Saleem Khan", just... "a man named Saleem Khan" unlike Det Sgt O'Hara, Ms Waters or Brendan Grehan SC...

I'd also wonder if the sentence would have been so lenient had she hailed from Ballymun rather than Ballybrack.

ohnonotgmail

ChikiChiki wrote: »

A scumbag no doubt but there are murderers, pedophiles and rapists who get far more lenient sentences. My question is, where is the consistency? Its just not there.

he well deserved the 12 years. that others got lighter sentences is a failing of the justice system. this case shows that sometimes it works very well.

Kimbot

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

backdated to when she was brought into custody which is perfectly normal. She was sentenced to 5 years in prison. She has already spent 20 months in prison.

Her sentence was backdated to October 16th, 2014 when she first went into custody.

Thats 32 odd months by now. 1/4 remission would be 1.25 years off the 5 years meaning she is due out in the coming weeks, July 2017.

ChikiChiki

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

he well deserved the 12 years. that others got lighter sentences is a failing of the justice system. this case shows that sometimes it works very well.

Sometimes isnt good enough! It always should work well. There would be a lot less scumbags on the streets.

ohnonotgmail

jonnycivic wrote: »

Thats 32 odd months by now. 1/4 remission would be 1.25 years off the 5 years meaning she is due out in the coming weeks, July 2017.

very poor maths by me i admit. but even by my very poor maths she still has 13 months to go, assuming she does get 25% remission.

ohnonotgmail

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Sometimes isnt good enough! It always should work well. There would be a lot less scumbags on the streets.

no justice system is perfect. but at least this scumbag is off the streets for a long time. A pity they didnt catch whoever filmed it.

arayess

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

there was a little bit more than false imprisonment involved. he tortured a man. 12 years is good enough for that scumbag.

for doing his civic juty - albeit a but misguided - shocking sentence.
I hope he wins an appeal

a rapist would get about half dowdalls sentence

not to mention when dowdall wasn't charged with gangland or paramilitary crimes , why was he is the special criminal court?

volchitsa

Omackeral wrote: »

I guess I'm just thinking back to the case in London last year when the Irish mum killed herself and her 7 year old son and it was basically just put down as a tragedy. I dunno, it could be in my head but I think fathers get the automatic evil bestowed on them whereas the mothers "had to be" ill because it's beyond the pale for a mum.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/deaths-of-irish-mother-and-son-uk-police-not-seeking-anyone-else-1.2907325?mode=amp

I think you think that because that's what you want to think.

What about the son who hacked his parents to death with an axe in Donegal a couple of years back, was it because he was a son and not a father that he didn't go to jail? Of course it wasn't, it was because he was clearly mentally ill.

When there is evidence of mental illness the person doesn't go to prison. The reality is that women almost never murder their partner and children except when they are mentally ill, men sometimes do so for reasons of control or revenge. You may not want there to be that difference, but it is there.

KERSPLAT!

The poor child. I don't know anything about the case only what I've read in the OPs link. I'll not pass judgement. Experts have given their opinion and that's enough for me.

ohnonotgmail

arayess wrote: »

for doing his civic juty - albeit a but misguided - shocking sentence.
I hope he wins an appeal

a rapist would get about half dowdalls sentence

not to mention when dowdall wasn't charged with gangland or paramilitary crimes , why was he is the special criminal court?

his civic duty? i didnt realise he was a member of an garda siochana. he did claim to be a member of the ira so this type of thuggery would be par for the course.

Kimbot

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

very poor maths by me i admit. but even by my very poor maths she still has 13 months to go, assuming she does get 25% remission.

my brain ain't working too well either haha yeah so a year left. Still tho I still think in a years time is she in the right frame of mind to be let back out into public?

ohnonotgmail

jonnycivic wrote: »

my brain ain't working too well either haha yeah so a year left. Still tho I still think in a years time is she in the right frame of mind to be let back out into public?

she has 4 years of court ordered treatment after that.

Kimbot

volchitsa wrote: »

When there is evidence of mental illness the person doesn't go to prison. The reality is that women almost never murder their partner and children except when they are mentally ill, men sometimes do so for reasons of control or revenge. You may not want there to be that difference, but it is there.

Women almost never murder their partner unless their mentally ill?? You do know about the scissor sisters case don't you??

El Weirdo

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

I'll not pass judgement. Experts have given their opinion and that's enough for me.

Come on! That's not how it works in these here parts. You should know that.

volchitsa

jonnycivic wrote: »

Women almost never murder their partner unless their mentally ill?? You do know about the scissor sisters case don't you??

Why don't you read what I said before going off on one like that. :rolleyes:

arayess

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

his civic duty? i didnt realise he was a member of an garda siochana. he did claim to be a member of the ira so this type of thuggery would be par for the course.

the "victim" was a convicted fraudster and dowdall rightly took him to task as he suspected he was attempting another crime regarding the motor bike

the "victim" here is scum and I think dowdalls intentions were noble.

If dowdall had no shin fein connections he'd be feted as a hero working people against thieves.

Kimbot

volchitsa wrote: »

Why don't you read what I said before going off on one like that. :rolleyes:

I did read it and im not going "off on one" as you put it. I asked a question.
Theres plenty of women around the world that have murdered their partners and were not mentally ill.

neonsofa

I always thought that the reason mothers were assumed to be mentally/psychologically ill in these cases- espcially with young babies- while fathers are not, is that the mothers may be suffering from post natal disorders like psychosis etc. that are actually physically induced by the pregnancy/birth- the very nature of being a mother makes them more susceptible than a man experiencing a spontaneous psychotic episode. Not that I have any knowledge or understanding of the area (perhaps that's obvious!), it was just always my assumption that this was the reason rather than an attitude towards men or leniency for women in general.

ohnonotgmail

arayess wrote: »

the "victim" was a convicted fraudster and dowdall rightly took him to task as he suspected he was attempting another crime regarding the motor bike

the "victim" here is scum and I think dowdalls intentions were noble.

If dowdall had no shin fein connections he'd be feted as a hero working people against thieves.

good ol' vigilante justice.

Murrisk

Omackeral wrote: »

It was a mother so mental illness. Alan Hawe on the other hand...

Do you think there have been no cases of mental illness being taken into account for men on trial in this country?

Agent Smith

volchitsa wrote: »

I think you think that because that's what you want to think.

What about the son who hacked his parents to death with an axe in Donegal a couple of years back, was it because he was a son and not a father that he didn't go to jail? Of course it wasn't, it was because he was clearly mentally ill.

When there is evidence of mental illness the person doesn't go to prison. The reality is that women almost never murder their partner and children except when they are mentally ill, men sometimes do so for reasons of control or revenge. You may not want there to be that difference, but it is there.

Nice sweeping statement there.


Surely deciding to take someones life in cold blood a form of mental illness?

seamus

arayess wrote: »

the "victim" was a convicted fraudster and dowdall rightly took him to task as he suspected he was attempting another crime regarding the motor bike

Ah well so, if Johnathan Dowdall suspected that the man was going to attempt to commit a crime, then that's good enough for me.

Sure, why do we have police at all? Why not just have Mr. Dowdall overseeing everything and dispensing justice?

I have difficulty believing your post isn't an extreme form of sarcasm.

Guy:Incognito

There was a lad in kildare suspected of something recently too............


Maybe Mr dowdall could have gotten a confession? Who cares about guilt, right?

volchitsa

Agent Smith wrote: »

Nice sweeping statement there.

Surely deciding to take someones life in cold blood a form of mental illness?

Just to clarify (I thought it was so obvious as not to need pointing out) I meant when the evidence is that the person only committed the crime because of their mental illness, and would never have done it otherwise.

Obviously one can be mentally ill and still be responsible for one's actions, including crimes.

As for your second paragraph, that's just a form of the "No true Scotsman" argument. And a massive sweeping statement. :rolleyes:
There are lots of cases where people kill other people in cold blood. Someone mentioned the Scissors Sisters up thread, but there are many many examples.
If we're going to put all murderers in mental hospital instead of prison we better build a lot more secure hospitals. But IMO we would just be letting a lot of cold blooded killers off for no good reason.

osarusan

arayess wrote: »

for doing his civic juty - albeit a but misguided - shocking sentence.

arayess wrote: »

I think dowdalls intentions were noble.

Sweet Jesus.

Dowdall and his father tied him up and then:

• put a clothe over his face, then poured buckets of water over him - waterboarded him.
• took out a pliers and threatened to pull off his fingers.
• put cable ties around him and threatened to tighten them until he died if the guy didn't stop moving.
• threatened to chop him up and feed him to dogs.

What f**king planet are you on if that is just somebody doing their civic duty with noble intentions?

suicide_circus

If she was mentaly disturbed why is she doing any time?

_Whimsical_

suicide_circus wrote: »

If she was mentaly disturbed why is she doing any time?

I was wondering that too, the facts of the case certainly point to her being seriously delusional at the time of the killing. On the morning before the killing she texted a friend and said that Hassan (the victim) was not a real child but a "fake" and that "they are replacing people with fakes". She didn't try to cover up the crime, she went straight out to meet a friend after. She sounded very unwell. You'd think that some sort of medical intervention would be better here than jail.

You can't blame anyone else for the mother's actions but you'd have to wonder who'd get a text like that from someone you know is caring alone for a small child and not intervene immediately.

ohnonotgmail

suicide_circus wrote: »

If she was mentaly disturbed why is she doing any time?

she wouldn't discuss what happened with the psychiatrists so they couldn't form the opinion that she was guilty but insane.

Murrisk

arayess wrote: »

for doing his civic juty - albeit a but misguided - shocking sentence.
I hope he wins an appeal

a rapist would get about half dowdalls sentence

not to mention when dowdall wasn't charged with gangland or paramilitary crimes , why was he is the special criminal court?

"His civic duty"? "Misguided"? Sweet suffering jaysus.

Gunmonkey

arayess wrote: »

the "victim" was a convicted fraudster and dowdall rightly took him to task as he suspected he was attempting another crime regarding the motor bike

the "victim" here is scum and I think dowdalls intentions were noble.

If dowdall had no shin fein connections he'd be feted as a hero working people against thieves.

*bzzt*

*bzzt*

a....arayess....can....y** he*r me?

*bzzt*

Time-mach**e....malfunction........gone back too far.....

*bzzt*

Sinn Fein....not in power yet.....

...law & order...

*bzzt*

......not upheld by Gerrys "friends" yet.....

....beware.....due process......trials.....still exist...

..."under duress"...not changed to......"looking under her duress, right lads"...

*bzzt*

...waterboarding....curr***ly not family activity....

*bzzt*

..signal unstable.....att**pt**g to reconnect...

*bzzt*

...be safe....all hail Overlord Adams....

*bzzt*

*bzzt*

circadian

arayess wrote: »

the "victim" was a convicted fraudster and dowdall rightly took him to task as he suspected he was attempting another crime regarding the motor bike

the "victim" here is scum and I think dowdalls intentions were noble.

If dowdall had no shin fein connections he'd be feted as a hero working people against thieves.

Why is the victim a "victim" in this case? Just because they're a convicted fraudster doesn't make them any less a victim when tied up, waterboarded and tortured in general.

I think anyone, regardless of political affiliation would be considered a scumbag and lunatic by the vast majority of people for behaving like this.

Summer wind

I think she should have received a life sentence. How was she deemed capable of looking after a tiny boy if she was acting that nuts in the run up to her little boys murder.

arayess

seamus wrote: »

Ah well so, if Johnathan Dowdall suspected that the man was going to attempt to commit a crime, then that's good enough for me.

Sure, why do we have police at all? Why not just have Mr. Dowdall overseeing everything and dispensing justice?

I have difficulty believing your post isn't an extreme form of sarcasm.

my post is genuine. I accept dowdall broke the law but I admire him for what he did to that piece of thrash.

also there is the fact it's a shockingly high sentence in comparision to what others get. for example the cork lad this week got 9 years for pinning a woman down while another raped her.
How is dowdalls crime worth 3 years more...???

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/man-jailed-for-nine-years-for-helping-his-friend-rape-a-young-woman-in-cork-791610.html
explain that?

osarusan wrote: »

Sweet Jesus.

Dowdall and his father tied him up and then:

• put a clothe over his face, then poured buckets of water over him - waterboarded him.
• took out a pliers and threatened to pull off his fingers.
• put cable ties around him and threatened to tighten them until he died if the guy didn't stop moving.
• threatened to chop him up and feed him to dogs.

What f**king planet are you on if that is just somebody doing their civic duty with noble intentions?

oh the poor lamb......might teach him to stop his thieving ways

Having posted previously regarding the effects a fraud/theft had on an elderly man I know ..I tip my hat to dowdall.
I only hope I would do the same.

circadian wrote: »

Why is the victim a "victim" in this case? Just because they're a convicted fraudster doesn't make them any less a victim when tied up, waterboarded and tortured in general.

I think anyone, regardless of political affiliation would be considered a scumbag and lunatic by the vast majority of people for behaving like this.

He deserves nothing but contempt

Robsweezie

in this part of the world at least, i believe we live in a society that, thankfully, cherishes and values the lives of children, pro life campaigning as an example.

the harm, deaths or killing of children, is seen as the ultimate unforgivable act. look at that horrific case where the child was left in the car by her father. a lot of anger and condemnation of him amid the mourning, understandably.

there is also the view that men are still the dominant,the aggressor, the harm doers, the attackers, rapists, the animals. it is easier to condemn a man than a more fragile woman. there are still double standards in domestic violence.

maybe its because throughout history men have been the hunters, the fighters, soldiers in the war, boxers, bouncers. it is easier to pin it on them.

Sofiztikated

arayess wrote: »

my post is genuine. I accept dowdall broke the law but I admire him for what he did to that piece of thrash.

also there is the fact it's a shockingly high sentence in comparision to what others get. for example the cork lad this week got 9 years for pinning a woman down while another raped her.
How is dowdalls crime worth 3 years more...???

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/man-jailed-for-nine-years-for-helping-his-friend-rape-a-young-woman-in-cork-791610.html
explain that?



oh the poor lamb......might teach him to stop his thieving ways

Having posted previously regarding the effects a fraud/theft had on an elderly man I know ..I tip my hat to dowdall.
I only hope I would do the same.


He deserves nothing but contempt

Dowdall is now convicted of kidnapping.

I expect you'll be going around to his gaff when he gets out, with your towels and 20 gallons of water?