BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

fly_agaric · 30-05-2017 7:52pm

Is there evidence it is more than just a shiny blurb/pipedream?

Press suggests that the funding to actually do it is not certain/will still have to be fought for, or have I read it wrong?

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/busconnects-can-increase-bus-passenger-numbers-50-nta/

bk · 30-05-2017 7:57pm

fly_agaric wrote: »

Is there evidence it is more than just a shiny blurb/pipedream?

Press suggests that the funding to actually do it is not certain/will still have to be fought for, or have I read it wrong?

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/busconnects-can-increase-bus-passenger-numbers-50-nta/

More of a case that it encompasses multiple different projects, that will come out of different budgets, etc.

E.g. BRT is one project, with a budget of 300 million or so, while Leap changes come out of the Leap budget, etc.

fly_agaric · 30-05-2017 8:10pm

bk wrote: »

More of a case that it encompasses multiple different projects, that will come out of different budgets, etc.

E.g. BRT is one project, with a budget of 300 million or so, while Leap changes come out of the Leap budget, etc.

Okay, so the "30 % funded" suggested by the press release is an underestimate. I suppose I was wondering because Irish politicians will always go with a lovely new road, or maybe a bridge if they have to make choice of how to spend money on transport. Or at least something like the Luas Cross City gee-gaw, not boring busses/bus lanes.

Mrs OBumble · 30-05-2017 10:25pm

thebsharp wrote: »

- implementing a cashless payment system to vastly speed up
passenger boarding times;

- revamping the fare system to provide a simpler fare
structure, allowing seamless movement between different
transport services without financial penalty;

it.

Cashless, ie Leap cards, significantly slows down loading in Galway.

With our existing flat fare structure a driver can take three cash fares in the time it takes to do a single leap card fare.

bk · 30-05-2017 10:38pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Cashless, ie Leap cards, significantly slows down loading in Galway.

With our existing flat fare structure a driver can take three cash fares in the time it takes to do a single leap card fare.

Same in Cork and it is ridiculous.

You should be able to tag-on on a right hand validator with no driver interaction in both Cork and Galway. But for some idiotic reason it doesn't work that way!

HivemindXX · 30-05-2017 11:26pm

bk wrote: »

Same in Cork and it is ridiculous.

You should be able to tag-on on a right hand validator with no driver interaction in both Cork and Galway. But for some idiotic reason it doesn't work that way!

If it is a flat fare then why does a card user have to interact with the driver?

I don't think tag-on/tag-off is a good idea for busses. Tagging does take time and having everyone exiting the bus pause, listen for the beep and go (not to mention realising that, yes, they still need to take it out of the wallet for it to work) is an unnecessary delay. I doubt they will want to put readers at every bus stop, although if they could do so on the BRT corridors that would be great.

Unfortunately flat fare has problem too. Everyone who goes two stops is going to scream blue murder about the increase. Maybe the readers in the bus could have separate spots for 'short', 'standard' and 'long'. Although I can see this causing more trouble than it's worth as people use the wrong one then want the driver to fix it.

One or the other though. Boarding and unloading have to be sped up.

yer man! · 30-05-2017 11:31pm

HivemindXX wrote: »

bk wrote: »

Same in Cork and it is ridiculous.

You should be able to tag-on on a right hand validator with no driver interaction in both Cork and Galway. But for some idiotic reason it doesn't work that way!

If it is a flat fare then why does a card user have to interact with the driver?

I don't think tag-on/tag-off is a good idea for busses. Tagging does take time and having everyone exiting the bus pause, listen for the beep and go (not to mention realising that, yes, they still need to take it out of the wallet for it to work) is an unnecessary delay. I doubt they will want to put readers at every bus stop, although if they could do so on the BRT corridors that would be great.

Unfortunately flat fare has problem too. Everyone who goes two stops is going to scream blue murder about the increase. Maybe the readers in the bus could have separate spots for 'short', 'standard' and 'long'. Although I can see this causing more trouble than it's worth as people use the wrong one then want the driver to fix it.

One or the other though. Boarding and unloading have to be sped up.

There are no right hand side validators on buses in Galway just the main machine by the driver. Driver has to change to leap card mode every time some wants to use one and then back to cash. It's really slow and awkward.

bk · 31-05-2017 11:23am

HivemindXX wrote: »

If it is a flat fare then why does a card user have to interact with the driver?

In Cork it is actually a zonal system, there are two zones an inner zone and an outer zone. So you need to tell the driver which zone you want.

Though it is pretty idiotic as many, if not most of the bus routes only operate in the inner zone only!

Also as yer man! mentioned, in Cork there is also no right hand auto validator like you have in Dublin Bus.

The solution to this madness is quiet simple. Install a right hand validator like Dublin Bus has and set it to automatically charge an inner zone fare only, which represents the vast majority of fares. If the person needs an outer zone fare then use the drivers validator.

Again Leap on BE city buses seems to have been just thrown on them with little thought as to how they should actually work. Stupid!

HivemindXX wrote: »

I don't think tag-on/tag-off is a good idea for busses. Tagging does take time and having everyone exiting the bus pause, listen for the beep and go (not to mention realising that, yes, they still need to take it out of the wallet for it to work) is an unnecessary delay. I doubt they will want to put readers at every bus stop, although if they could do so on the BRT corridors that would be great.

Tag-on/tag-off can work well if properly implemented. All buses in Amsterdam work this way and it seems very fast and easy.

Of course multiple doors help. In Amsterdam it is enter and tag-on via the front door, tag-off and exit via either of the two rear doors.

If we constantly used the rear doors here then it would work better. However I do believe that even tag-off via single door only buses would still be faster then the torturous driver interaction process. Though it would be something that DB/NTA should really trial.

An updated ticket machine and validators would also help making the tagging process faster. In London and Amsterdam, tagging is WAY faster, you pretty much just tap for the briefest second, Leap you have to really hold the card there for a few seconds! I suspect the outdated ticket machines are at fault. But smart cards don't have to be like this.

HivemindXX wrote: »

Unfortunately flat fare has problem too. Everyone who goes two stops is going to scream blue murder about the increase. Maybe the readers in the bus could have separate spots for 'short', 'standard' and 'long'. Although I can see this causing more trouble than it's worth as people use the wrong one then want the driver to fix it.

I agree that a flat fare, tag-on only would be faster then tag-on/tag-off. As you say I'd expect people to complain, we love to complain and whine in Ireland. But I believe it just has too be done for the greater good. If they can do it in London, no particularly reason why we can't too. People will just get use to it.

You don't see people complaining about the high cost of just going two stops on Luas. Really an able bodied person should just walk two stops. Remember disabled and elderly people get free travel anyway.

I hate to say it, but I suspect many of the short tickets are people going much further and fare evading. I seem to see it happen all the time and I'm just a passenger.

A flat fare will make enforcement easier and reduce fare evasion.

HivemindXX wrote: »

One or the other though. Boarding and unloading have to be sped up.

I agree completely.

brokenarms · 31-05-2017 11:35am

Bambi wrote: »

Bus this morning, same craic as always..the horde of [MOD EDIT:] OAPs [MOD EDIT] all shuffle up towards the front exit. The Driver as usual, doesn't even bother opening the side doors.

Nothing will change until policies are enforced

Did you ask why the driver did not open the middle doors? Maybe he could not get into the curb. In that case, the driver must not use them.

bk · 31-05-2017 11:43am

brokenarms wrote: »

Did you ask why the driver did not open the middle doors? Maybe he could not get into the curb. In that case, the driver must not use them.

A tired excuse. Doesn't seem to be an issue on Westmorland Street, where drivers often leave people right off into the road on the outer lane as they can't get near the stop!

Some drivers do a great job and use the doors at almost every stop (see a lot on the 13) other drivers, perhaps most clearly just can't be bothered using the dual doors, even when it is perfectly obvious that it is safe to do so.

Stephen15 · 31-05-2017 11:52am

bk wrote: »

Some drivers do a great job and use the doors at almost every stop (see a lot on the 13) other drivers, perhaps most clearly just can't be bothered using the dual doors, even when it is perfectly obvious that it is safe to do so.

I have noticed drivers seem to use them mostly in the cc and not so much in the suburbs. Also they usually open to front doors first and then the middle doors meaning everyone has already got off at the front by time the middle doors open.

Pixel Eater · 31-05-2017 11:52am

Looks good, hopefully it'll get funding and actually get done.

Two reservations though: the BRT going to the airport and on to Swords (I know it doesn't have it on the map here but the 'Swiftway' announcement had it as an option); is this not just duplicating the Metro North for the most part? Are they subtly trying to ditch MN and replace it with the cheaper BRT.

I'm not sure about that new livery. I actually think Dublin Bus has quite a strong brand; should just stick with that and save a few bob in the process.

Dyr · 31-05-2017 11:59am

brokenarms wrote: »

Did you ask why the driver did not open the middle doors? Maybe he could not get into the curb. In that case, the driver must not use them.

He had no problem getting into the curb, just couldnt be bothered doing his job properly. Common enough for dublin bus

bk · 31-05-2017 12:04pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I have noticed drivers seem to use them mostly in the cc and not so much in the suburbs. Also they usually open to front doors first and then the middle doors meaning everyone has already got off at the front by time the middle doors open.

You are correct, they are badly operated here. They should really work the way that Luas doors do, the passenger press a button that opens the rear door, take it out of the hands of the driver. That is how it works in other mainland European countries.

bk · 31-05-2017 12:13pm

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Looks good, hopefully it'll get funding and actually get done.

Two reservations though: the BRT going to the airport and on to Swords (I know it doesn't have it on the map here but the 'Swiftway' announcement had it as an option); is this not just duplicating the Metro North for the most part? Are they subtly trying to ditch MN and replace it with the cheaper BRT.

The BRT to the airport will have far less capacity then MN. Either way MN will still be needed.

But also once we have MN we will still have and need buses. Remember BRT isn't about just new buses, it is about upgrading the road infrastructure to give more dedicated room and priority to all buses along the route. This road is the main road from the North of the city in, it will still be jammed with DB, BE, Aircoach, etc. buses even when MN is built.

But your concern that it might leave politicians long finger MN for another few years is valid.

Pixel Eater wrote: »

I'm not sure about that new livery. I actually think Dublin Bus has quite a strong brand; should just stick with that and save a few bob in the process.

I agree that I don't like the new NTA livery.

But the issue is that DB's brand is too strong. In future it won't just be DB, 10% of DB's routes will be tendered out to other companies. And then you have BE and the other PSO routes operated by private companies.

The idea is to move them all PSO routes under a single common brand, where you don't really know or care who is actually operating the bus. This is how London Bus works. The brand and livery is owned by TFL, but the buses are actually operated by a dozen or so different companies. But to the passenger they all look the same.

brokenarms · 31-05-2017 12:31pm

I drive a bus, and find it much easier to get folk out with the middle door open. To be completely honest, I use it more in the suburbs, as I can roll in parallel to the curb.
In the city, this is often difficult as people park either in or too near to the bus stops. Also getting in between or behind buses can restrict the use of middle doors.
Often its impossible to get the middle section of the bus in. We also have to consider getting the bus back out without the tail swing or front hitting anything.
If I cant get in, and someone falls or trips out of the middle door, I know exactly what questions I will be asked by my employer. "Why did you open the doors. Its your fault" .
We are getting constant memos to use them. If your bus does get in correctly(the width of a bog roll from the kerb), and you still have to use the front, you should confront the driver. There may a good reason that the passenger may not be aware of.

Pixel Eater · 31-05-2017 12:36pm

bk wrote: »

The BRT to the airport will have far less capacity then MN. Either way MN will still be needed.

But also once we have MN we will still have and need buses. Remember BRT isn't about just new buses, it is about upgrading the road infrastructure to give more dedicated room and priority to all buses along the route. This road is the main road from the North of the city in, it will still be jammed with DB, BE, Aircoach, etc. buses even when MN is built.

But your concern that it might leave politicians long finger MN for another few years is valid.

The other buses, including private ones, would have to be allowed to use the BRT route. That would need to not only be legally, but technically and operationally possible. I just hope that it won't descend into a MN v BRT debate and the cheaper option taken.

bk wrote: »

I agree that I don't like the new NTA livery.

But the issue is that DB's brand is too strong. In future it won't just be DB, 10% of DB's routes will be tendered out to other companies. And then you have BE and the other PSO routes operated by private companies.

The idea is to move them all PSO routes under a single common brand, where you don't really know or care who is actually operating the bus. This is how London Bus works. The brand and livery is owned by TFL, but the buses are actually operated by a dozen or so different companies. But to the passenger they all look the same.

Yes that's the way to do it but I don't see how you think the current DB brand is 'too strong'. Keep the current livery for the whole network, even ones operated by private companies.

VG31 · 31-05-2017 12:40pm

brokenarms wrote: »

We are getting constant memos to use them. If your bus does get in correctly(the width of a bog roll from the kerb), and you still have to use the front, you should confront the driver. There may a good reason that the passenger may not be aware of.

There are lots of drivers who just don't use them even if people wait at them. And I mean out of the city centre where the stop being blocked is much less likely to be an issue. The only "good reason" is that some drivers can't be bothered to use them.

There's a driver on my route who used to make people use the centre doors. He seems to have given up now and just opens both doors. All drivers need to make people use the centre doors for them to work properly, not just the rare driver.

I also find that new drivers are usually much better at using the centre doors.

brokenarms · 31-05-2017 12:47pm

VG31 wrote: »

There are lots of drivers who just don't use them even if people wait at them. And I mean out of the city centre where the stop being blocked is much less likely to be an issue. The only "good reason" is that some drivers can't be bothered to use them.

There's a driver on my route who used to make people use the centre doors. He seems to have given up now and just opens both doors. All drivers need to make people use the centre doors for them to work properly, not just the rare driver.

I also find that new drivers are usually much better at using the centre doors.

Sorry mate. I cant only speak for myself on the matter. I am not responsible for the other drivers. I use them all the time, but the truth is, hardly anyone uses them. In fact they pass the open doors to get out the front.

Stephen15 · 31-05-2017 12:51pm

A question I would pose about the middle doors is are they reliable do they always maybe sometimes they don't.

devnull · 31-05-2017 1:02pm

brokenarms wrote: »

Sorry mate. I cant only speak for myself on the matter. I am not responsible for the other drivers. I use them all the time, but the truth is, hardly anyone uses them. In fact they pass the open doors to get out the front.

That's because the customers know that often the drivers won't open them and don't want to risk missing their stop, I presume a driver won't open middle doors so I head for the front door, it's not because I'm ignoring the middle door, it's because I cannot rely on them to open.

This is absolutely not the passengers fault in my view.

D14Rugby · 31-05-2017 1:07pm

I've always thought they didn't open them because it would be easy enough for someone to just hop on and not pay. Only time I've ever seen the middle door open is when there's been a pram or an elderly person that would take ages to get to the front door

VG31 · 31-05-2017 1:09pm

brokenarms wrote: »

Sorry mate. I cant only speak for myself on the matter. I am not responsible for the other drivers. I use them all the time, but the truth is, hardly anyone uses them. In fact they pass the open doors to get out the front.

People don't tend to wait at them as they don't know if the driver will open them. Sometimes if people see that they are opening at every stop they will wait at them. I've done that multiple times. Then you have people blocking the doors even when the bus is not busy.

It's great that you are using them but many of your colleagues are undermining your efforts.

VG31 · 31-05-2017 1:13pm

D14Rugby wrote: »

I've always thought they didn't open them because it would be easy enough for someone to just hop on and not pay. Only time I've ever seen the middle door open is when there's been a pram or an elderly person that would take ages to get to the front door

I get the bus every weekday and since the dual door buses were introduced in 2012, I've only seen people get on at the back around 7 or 8 times, which isn't much considering how many bus journeys I've taken. It's not really as much of issue as you might think. About half of them were OAPs who are travelling for free anyway.

_Kaiser_ · 31-05-2017 1:31pm

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Yes that's the way to do it but I don't see how you think the current DB brand is 'too strong'. Keep the current livery for the whole network, even ones operated by private companies.

Indeed.. red is synonymous with the London Bus so it makes sense for every other operator to be using the same colour under that structure.

Here the Blue/Yellow has been around for a decade and is equally recognizable. Who cares whether it's in future going to be associated with "Dublin Bus" or A Dublin bus.. best to stick to what people know and expect than yet another expensive (and ugly!) rebranding exercise.

bk · 31-05-2017 1:43pm

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Yes that's the way to do it but I don't see how you think the current DB brand is 'too strong'. Keep the current livery for the whole network, even ones operated by private companies.

The issue is that the NTA don't own the brand, DB do and DB won't allow it to be used by other companies for obvious reasons.

Plus pushing the DB brand and colours on buses in Cork and Galway wouldn't make sense either.

Also while in is strong brand, it isn't London Bus red strong. Hardly anyone outside of Dublin would know the DB brand and colours and even then it is only a little over 10 years old.

So a new brand and livery wouldn't be the worst idea. A fresh start for the whole country. Though I don't like the examples they are showing. Maybe Leapcard green would be more iconic, but perhaps too plastic paddy.

bk · 31-05-2017 1:56pm

DB unfortunately are overly obsessed with fare evasion. This is one of the reasons why for years they only had single door buses and forced everyone through the front door and past the driver. Even if it massively slows down the whole journey for all of the majority of honest fare paying passengers.

In other countries in Europe they think it is more important to keep the whole service running quickly and smoothly. That is why they have buses with 3 or 4 doors, you can enter and exit through any door and you validate your ticket on board. Leads to much faster journey times.

Fare evasion is not the responsibility of the driver then, it is down by random ticket checkers and high on the spot fines.

Ironically despite the poor setup of DB buses, DB still ends up needing ticket inspectors due to free pass fraud and people buying cheaper tickets then their journey. So the whole system ends up not making sense anyway.

dazberry · 31-05-2017 1:56pm

VG31 wrote: »

I get the bus every weekday and since the dual door buses were introduced in 2012, I've only seen people get on at the back around 7 or 8 times, which isn't much considering how many bus journeys I've taken. It's not really as much of issue as you might think. About half of them were OAPs who are travelling for free anyway.

The majority of drivers on the route I am on open the doors at the city centre stops. I have seen on occasion OAPs struggling to get off the middle door when the bus is not completely parallel to the curb necessitating a step down onto the road - for those that have slight mobility issues.

The bus I was on recently during the Luas red line issue was completely wedged - the driver opened the middle doors at every stop thankfully, absolutely no way to alight at the front door in that scenario.

D.

Pixel Eater · 31-05-2017 2:23pm

bk wrote: »

The issue is that the NTA don't own the brand, DB do and DB won't allow it to be used by other companies for obvious reasons.

Plus pushing the DB brand and colours on buses in Cork and Galway wouldn't make sense either.

Also while in is strong brand, it isn't London Bus red strong. Hardly anyone outside of Dublin would know the DB brand and colours and even then it is only a little over 10 years old.

So a new brand and livery wouldn't be the worst idea. A fresh start for the whole country. Though I don't like the examples they are showing. Maybe Leapcard green would be more iconic, but perhaps too plastic paddy.

Ah yes that is a good point it being Dublin Bus' brand (and thus ownership of it) and not the NTA.

I wouldn't think that Cork or Galway would simply take DB branding, surly they'd have their own.

Yes the red of London bus is pretty iconic but from maybe the yellow taxis of New York I'd say most people wouldn't know the brand and colour of most transports systems worldwide. What's Tokyo, Frankfurt or Zurich's, for example?

Maybe bring back to the aul green buses...

coylemj · 31-05-2017 2:46pm

Tagging off on Dublin Bus carries a big risk of aggravation towards people who don't have their card ready when exiting at busy stops, especially where lots of the exiting passengers are making a connection with another bus or operator. Unless there's a flat fare, DB would really need left and right scanners and a divider pole (as there used to be to be on older buses) at the exit doors to split the exiting traffic into two lanes. That way one idiot foostering in a wallet or handbag for their card won't completely block the exit.

Putting the tag on the bus stops so you tag off after exiting like on the Luas is a solution but for various reasons like roadworks or traffic blockages, buses often stop away from the stop which would make this awkward.

BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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