Terrorist Attack in Manchester (Read MOD WARNING in OP Updated 24/05/2017))

jmayo · 23-05-2017 03:00PM

munsterlegend wrote: »

There is no 100% solution to extremism but that does not mean you make things worse with failed policies from the past. intelligence usually works and that is not leaving them be but monitoring their activity including online, travel etc

It didn't work for the 12 people in Berlin.

It didn't work for Fr Jacques Hamel who was beheaded by someone under curfew and electronically tagged.

You can't monitor thousands and the French have admitted that.

DrumSteve · 23-05-2017 03:00PM

LincolnsBeard wrote: »

Western Europe is finished.

This problem is going to be exacerbated over the coming generations.

I feel like the majority of people in this thread have absolutely no idea what the reality of the situation is. Everybody seems completely ignorant to it.

I would love to hear your advice on how we get more integration in areas like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zD4mZyEoePo

Take a walk around parts of the UK and there's no way you can be surprised that every once in a while you get a Jihadist that tries to mass murder people.

Every week on the news there is a story about some plot to murder people that is foiled by Mi5. This is one of the ones that seems to have succeeded because, despite being identified as a threat, the individual in question was no longer being monitored by the security services. It's literally impossible to monitor all threats.

Eventually they will begin to succeed because we will become demoralised. As this demographic grows, people will flee.

Well I suppose we all better just give in if that's the case.

pjohnson · 23-05-2017 03:01PM

DrumSteve wrote: »

Well I suppose we all better just give in if that's the case.

Is that not what you want?

LincolnsBeard · 23-05-2017 03:01PM

Quazzie wrote: »

Sure there is marching like that up the north fairly regularly. Why is it different because muslims did it one 2 years ago?

Northern Ireland isn't exactly an appealing prospect for places that are not Northern Ireland.

Exeggcute · 23-05-2017 03:02PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Last nights "Blowback" was against kids!
They didn't form the policies, or have any say in them - anymore than most of us here did!

So, again, who's this "We" that should have a long hard look at ourselves?
Because "We" had nothing to do with those policies, so, despite the fact that I agree that some western Governments have a lot to answer for, because policy re: the M.E was/is indefensible, anyone suggesting "We" are responsible is victim-blaming.

Blowback is blowback no matter how unsavoury or barbaric it is in terms of the indiscriminate murder of children

Citizens however cannot divorce themselves from the actions of their governments that they elected. So that is the "we" I am referring to - the collective responsibility born by a society and their elected representatives.

If "we" don't agree with the policies of our elected government then "we" can throw them out of office.

And leading terrorism experts have been saying the same thing for years.

DrumSteve · 23-05-2017 03:02PM

pjohnson wrote: »

Is that not what you want?

What?

SkepticQuark · 23-05-2017 03:02PM

pjohnson wrote: »

Is that not what you want?

Stop using straw man arguments, it's getting old and you look like a numpty doing it.

FAILSAFE 00 · 23-05-2017 03:03PM

munsterlegend wrote: »

Police could have suspicions because your friends with someone on Facebook or social media. That doesn't make everyone a terrorist has connections with is also a terrorist.

Ah jaysus lads. I am talking about people who are known terrorists who police have difficulty getting convictions against. Extremists.

AudreyHepburn · 23-05-2017 03:04PM

Danzy wrote: »

This is the result of Multiculturalism as much as immigration.

If Multiculturalism had not been indulged then migration would be less of a problem.

It is coming to its logical conclusion now.

Why are people so determined to turn a blind eye to the fact that most of the men who have carried out attacks in recent times are home grown terrorists not immigrants or refugees?

It smacks of scapegoating to me....perhaps it's just too frightening and disturbing for people to acknowledge that most of these people are actually born and bred in the same countries as us.

Captain Obvious · 23-05-2017 03:06PM

I would love to hear your advice on how we get more integration in areas like this:

Yes it sounds terrifying. This is from the report from the Lancashire Telegraph

THOUSANDS of Muslims marched through the streets of Nelson today to celebrate the prophet Muhammad’s birthday.

A plane was also seen flying over Pendle, with a banner saying 'We Love Muhammad-Mercy To All Mankind’.

That bit about Mercy to all Mankind is chilling.

DrumSteve · 23-05-2017 03:06PM

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

Ah jaysus lads. I am talking about people who are known terrorists who police have difficulty getting convictions against. Extremists.

But what about those in your low casualty rate?

AudreyHepburn · 23-05-2017 03:08PM

murpho999 wrote: »

Yes, human rights

We all know terrorists don't care about it but governments do and they have to consider them.

What you are proposing is that government’s should be allowed snoop on all citizen’s e-mails, internet activity and then somehow interpret that as being loyal to ISIS.

So where do you draw the line?

I myself have looked at pages by ISIS groups just out of curiosity. Does that mean I’m a potential sympathiser and therefore should be arrested?

I don't think anyone would ever suggest governments should be allowed access to everyone's emails willy nilly but if you show the slightest sign of possessing a fanatical or extremist viewpoint or being involved with such people then yes you should absolutely be investigated.

Surely some-one like you who simply looked up a sight out of curiosity would be easy to rule out with a little digging.

If you're not doing anything wrong then you should have nothing to worry about.

Shurimgreat · 23-05-2017 03:08PM

Exeggcute wrote: »

Blowback is blowback no matter how unsavoury or barbaric it is in terms of the indiscriminate murder of children

Citizens however cannot divorce themselves from the actions of their governments that they elected. So that is the "we" I am referring to - the collective responsibility born by a society and their elected representatives.

If "we" don't agree with the policies of our elected government then "we" can throw them out of office.

And leading terrorism experts have been saying the same thing for years.

Unfortunately we needed the oil up until now. But when their wells dry up, or better still we master the technology around electric cars and renewable energy, we can abandon the middle east and let the strongest local warlord become their ruler.

Funnily enough, after the west stops intervening in the ME, I don't see it becoming the peaceful paradise that some believe it will be. My suspicion is it will be endless war, Shia against Sunni, and Kurds against everyone.

FAILSAFE 00 · 23-05-2017 03:10PM

DrumSteve wrote: »

But what about those in your low casualty rate?

That's just being a realist. It will happen no doubt.

El Weirdo · 23-05-2017 03:11PM

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

That's just being a realist. It will happen no doubt.

And if it happened to you? Is that acceptable?

FAILSAFE 00 · 23-05-2017 03:12PM

DrumSteve wrote: »

But what about those in your low casualty rate?

Do you have anything constructive to add yourself?

What do you think needs to be done to tackle the problem?

DrumSteve · 23-05-2017 03:13PM

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

That's just being a realist. It will happen no doubt.

I understand your point.

However it is flawed. Where does it end when you start down that road? Governments with unchecked power to kill people they name subversives terrify me far more than any terrorists.

Billy86 · 23-05-2017 03:14PM

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Link?

How many do you want?

Why Was a 7-Month-Old Baby Put on the U.S. Government's Terrorist Watchlist? - http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/why-was-7-month-old-baby-put-us-governments-terrorist-watchlist

---

Meet Mikey, 8: U.S. Has Him on Watch List - http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/14/nyregion/14watchlist.html

---

These 13 People Placed On The 'Terror Watch List' Will Blow Your Mind
http://www.dailywire.com/news/6879/these-13-people-placed-terror-watch-list-will-blow-amanda-prestigiacomo

7. 6-year-old Alyssa Thomas from Ohio
“A family in Ohio learned that their six-year-old daughter is on Homeland Security’s terror watch list when they attempted to make a flight from Cleveland to Minneapolis,” reported The New York Daily News in 2010.

8. A two-year-old child
As reported by The Huffington Post in 2012, an unnamed (for reasons of anonymity) two-year-child was classified as a suspected terrorist.

10. Third-grader James Robinson

---

Police identify 200 children as potential terrorists - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-identify-200-children-as-potential-terrorists-1656027.html

---

A three-year-old child is among hundreds of young Londoners who have been identified as potential future extremists or at risk of radicalisation. - http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-child-aged-three-in-terror-alert-over-radicalisation-10418455.html

AudreyHepburn · 23-05-2017 03:15PM

pilly wrote: »

That statement was going very well until they say "tragedy". To me tragedy suggests a terrible accident. That kind of language does my head in.

The murder of innocent children isn't a terrible tragic incident?

FAILSAFE 00 · 23-05-2017 03:15PM

El Weirdo wrote: »

And if it happened to you? Is that acceptable?

What is your suggestion for tackling suspects that are falling through the intelligence cracks?

HigginsJ · 23-05-2017 03:16PM

Exeggcute wrote: »

Blowback is blowback no matter how unsavoury or barbaric it is in terms of the indiscriminate murder of children

Citizens however cannot divorce themselves from the actions of their governments that they elected. So that is the "we" I am referring to - the collective responsibility born by a society and their elected representatives.

If "we" don't agree with the policies of our elected government then "we" can throw them out of office.

And leading terrorism experts have been saying the same thing for years.

Considering that there has been an 8 year old girl confirmed dead and over half of the 59 injured are under 16 then your point is ****ing ridiculous.

These cowards spotted an easy target and went with it, they don't give a **** who is in power, "we" did not bring this on ourselves :mad:

Exeggcute · 23-05-2017 03:16PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Unfortunately we needed the oil up until now. But when their wells dry up, or better still we master the technology around electric cars and renewable energy, we can abandon the middle east and let the strongest local warlord become their ruler.

Funnily enough, after the west stops intervening in the ME, I don't see it becoming the peaceful paradise that some believe it will be. My suspicion is it will be endless war, Shia against Sunni, and Kurds against everyone.

Most likely. I mean the Saudi's are buying several hundred billion dollars worth of weapons from the U.S. in the next few years. They'll have to get to play with their shiny new toys.

It might be slightly better if countries like the U.S. stopped selling them weapons.

Exeggcute · 23-05-2017 03:17PM

HigginsJ wrote: »

Considering that there has been an 8 year old girl confirmed dead and over half of the 59 injured are under 16 then your point is ****ing ridiculous.

These cowards spotted an easy target and went with it, they don't give a **** who is in power, "we" did not bring this on ourselves :mad:

My point is very real. You can deny reality all you like of it makes you feel better but ignorance is at the very root of this problem

jmayo · 23-05-2017 03:17PM

Exeggcute wrote: »

Blowback is blowback no matter how unsavoury or barbaric it is in terms of the indiscriminate murder of children

Citizens however cannot divorce themselves from the actions of their governments that they elected. So that is the "we" I am referring to - the collective responsibility born by a society and their elected representatives.

If "we" don't agree with the policies of our elected government then "we" can throw them out of office.

And leading terrorism experts have been saying the same thing for years.

So using your login why did ordinary Swedish people (children included) get mown down in their capital ?
What did the Swedish government ever do against a muslim country or against Middle East ?

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Why are people so determined to turn a blind eye to the fact that most of the men who have carried out attacks in recent times are home grown terrorists not immigrants or refugees?

It smacks of scapegoating to me....perhaps it's just too frightening and disturbing for people to acknowledge that most of these people are actually born and bred in the same countries as us.

No the frightening thing is you have the descendants of legal immigrants turning their backs on their own countries, on the citizens they grew up with and the states that helped educated, care and feed them.
And some of these immigrants were well educated and often held quiet good jobs.
So it wasn't always that the kids weren't granted opportunities.
Adel Kermiche who slaughtered elderly priest Father Jacques Hamel, by beheading, was the son of professor and the brother of a doctor.
Of course that doesn't suit the narrative that they are all poor downtrodden that the likes of France never gave a chance to.

And now just imagine what some of the children of the latest illegal uneducated arrivals will possibly turn out.
So far some of their would be parents have shown utter distain for the laws and citizens of the lands that has given them shelter.

You don't import more trouble and create even larger ghettos.
Some of us are wise enough to see that, others arrogantly think they can change them and make them liberal like most of the natives. :rolleyes:

Conservative · 23-05-2017 03:18PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Danzy wrote: »

This is the result of Multiculturalism as much as immigration.

If Multiculturalism had not been indulged then migration would be less of a problem.

It is coming to its logical conclusion now.

Why are people so determined to turn a blind eye to the fact that most of the men who have carried out attacks in recent times are home grown terrorists not immigrants or refugees?

It smacks of scapegoating to me....perhaps it's just too frightening and disturbing for people to acknowledge that most of these people are actually born and bred in the same countries as us.

You do realise they are the result of historical immigration though?

The more Muslims we allow into Europe the more the problem will grow. If it is highly restricted/cut at source now then you begin the monumentous task of policing those who are already European citizens.

Who's to say what the children of "moderate" Muslims will become 20 years down the line. There is a large problem with isolation and ghettoisation that doesn't need to be added to.

FrancieBrady · 23-05-2017 03:18PM

jmayo wrote: »

And in the meantime what would you do with the thousands of would be mass murderers that are "known to authorities" throughout Europe ?

So far we have dozens of victims to terrorists which had already appeared on the radar of the security services.

Interment is the solution to that and some day you will realise it.

Internment won't work. There will just be replacements with more commitment - which is/was the result of internment everywhere else in the world.
More bombing won't work either mind you, but the western governments and the arms companies they support are not ready to 'realise' that yet. too much money to be made.

AudreyHepburn · 23-05-2017 03:20PM

kopite386 wrote: »

The attacker is named as 23 year old Salaman Abedi he was supposedly known to authorities - CBS are reporting this

RobertKK wrote: »

BBC say they believe the person who did it is British born.

Sadly neither of these surprise me.

Why can't these people just be taken off the streets if they are identified as people with terrorist/extremist leanings?

xckjoo · 23-05-2017 03:23PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Sadly neither of these surprise me.

Why can't these people just be taken off the streets if they are identified as people with terrorist/extremist leanings?

How do you identify people with terrorist/extremist leanings with 100% accuracy? Not too long ago being Irish in the UK would put you on that list.

mikeybrennan · 23-05-2017 03:24PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Sadly neither of these surprise me.

Why can't these people just be taken off the streets if they are identified as people with terrorist/extremist leanings?

Internment doesn't work

You remove one another takes his place

Yamanoto · 23-05-2017 03:25PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Why are people so determined to turn a blind eye to the fact that most of the men who have carried out attacks in recent times are home grown terrorists not immigrants or refugees?

It smacks of scapegoating to me....perhaps it's just too frightening and disturbing for people to acknowledge that most of these people are actually born and bred in the same countries as us.

They may be 'home grown', but the multiculturalism aspect Danzy was referring to actually reinforces a sense of otherness and highlights their difference to the wider indigenous population, even in second and third generation minorities. I'm not sure France, Britain & the Netherlands would go down that same route if they were given the opportunity to start over again.

I think we're in a position to learn from the failures of other states and should actively consider policies which promote assimilation over multiculturalism.

Assimilation:
'Cultural assimilation is a socio-political response to demographic multi-ethnicity that supports or promotes the assimilation of ethnic minorities into the dominant culture. It is opposed to affirmative philosophy (for example, multiculturalism) which recognizes and works to maintain differences.'

Nice Roger Scruton quote:

'Although religion has been an important part of European identity, it was gradually, under the influence of the Enlightenment, pushed into the background by nationality, and subsequently by the rise of the nation state. And it is thanks to the nation state that we enjoy the freedoms and secular jurisdictions that are so attractive to immigrants – and especially to those immigrants who define their pre-political membership in religious, rather than national, terms. For national loyalty is a form of neighbourliness: it is loyalty to a shared home and to the people who have built it. It makes no specific demands of a religious or ideological nature, and is content with a common obedience to a secular rule of law, and a common sense of belonging to the land, its customs and its habits of peaceful coexistence.'

Terrorist Attack in Manchester (Read MOD WARNING in OP Updated 24/05/2017))

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