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Future Luas expansion in GDA strategy 2016-2035

  • 21-05-2017 4:13pm
    #1
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    National Transport Authority Draft Transport Strategy for the Greater Dublin Area 2016-2035
    5.3.8 Poolbeg Luas
    To serve the future development area of Poolbeg, in addition to Ringsend and Irishtown, it is intended to extend the Luas Red Line south of the River Liffey at its eastern end. Crossing the Liffey on a new bridge in the vicinity of existing East Link Bridge, Luas services would be extended past the Point, continuing onto Poolbeg. This extended link will provide a fast and convenient connection from this area into the City Centre and westwards.

    TII comment on The Exo planning application:

    32e871f4028cd23b05f7959b50f28990.png
    b2248b680ade2b6003deba7216b9ade9.png
    I couldn't find the document for an easterly extension.

    Additional information submitted by The Exo architects for a southerly extension:

    0gHElffl.png

    3801454822d77e3160cb90cd6eaf9522.png

    Figure 3, Dublin Port Masterplan 2012-2040:

    b4a9997a6052739129ec92c890a583d3.png
    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Perhaps they could replace the bus lane with tracks on The Samuel Backett
    There are already track grooves on the Samuel Beckett Bridge. It's tarmacked over.


«1345

Comments

  • #2
    AngryLips
    Registered Users Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Peregrine wrote: »
    There are already track grooves on the Samuel Beckett Bridge. It's tarmacked over.

    So is the plan to use the Samuel Beckett Bridge or build a new bridge? If it's to use the Samuel Beckett then that would mean three separate termini on the eastbound red Luas since it would be another branch/spur.

    Edit: said westbound instead of east


  • #3
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    AngryLips wrote: »
    So is the plan to use the Samuel Beckett Bridge or build a new bridge? If it's to use the Samuel Beckett then that would mean three separate termini on the westbound red Luas since it would be another branch/spur.

    Sure line is going to have 3 different termini now aswell.


  • #4
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    AngryLips wrote: »
    So is the plan to use the Samuel Beckett Bridge or build a new bridge? If it's to use the Samuel Beckett then that would mean three separate termini on the westbound red Luas since it would be another branch/spur.
    The current plan for the east side of the Red Line is an extension from The Point — not a spur.

    There are no plans to use the Samuel Beckett Bridge for Luas at present. Platform for Change had some sort of a North Docks - Grand Canal Dock - Inchicore route but that's not relevant anymore and I haven't heard anything from RPA/TII about such a route after that.


  • #5
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,359 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I thought that Samuel Beckett bridge was designed to take the Luas. Not sure where it would go after it reached the south side.


  • #6
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I thought that Samuel Beckett bridge was designed to take the Luas. Not sure where it would go after it reached the south side.

    Oh, it is. There's just no plan to use it at present.

    yxIg2TEl.jpg


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  • #7
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,431 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    denartha wrote: »
    Forgetting that it rains 6 months of the year, and if you have to wear a suit for work, you may not want to arrive in work sweaty.
    It actually doesn't rain as much as you think, and a leisurely walk on most days, will not leave most people sweaty.
    Chivito550 wrote: »
    Throw in morning rush hour and insufficient space on many buses and drivers driving past stops. A LUAS from Bray would be well utilised, albeit far from a priority relative to more important projects.
    Coming through Bray, it is gridlocked with locals going into South Dublin for about half the week. The regular 145 gets choked in Bray for 3 of the 4 days, making it quicker to walk through Bray and get it the far side, only it is full by that stage. A LUAS in Bray would be well utilised, the original plans had it coming down into the middle of town where the new shopping center is going. The only issue is the huge traffic issue that Bray already has but this should be examined to see how reliving this would be.
    lxflyer wrote: »
    I'm not saying don't build the LUAS to Bray - anything but.

    What I am saying is that I very much doubt there are large numbers of people taking the DART into town from Bray or Dun Laoghaire and then taking a LUAS back south to Dundrum, Sandyford or Cherrywood as another poster suggested.

    There are numerous buses along the DART line that would connect those areas with the DART line and that no one in their right mind would take such a convoluted route when far easier and more direct options exist.

    I'm just reigning in some of the exaggerations that people come up with.
    There are large number of commuters who don't take the Dart from Bray because it goes straight into town, whereas a LUAS going out to where a large number of jobs in south Dublin are located might be more feasible than driving.
    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I thought that Samuel Beckett bridge was designed to take the Luas. Not sure where it would go after it reached the south side.
    It was, the plan originally (from memory, was that the LUAS would have went down Pearse St. having an inner ring in the city center. That was the plan when the LUAS was in design and building stage but it just disappeared.


  • #8
    D14Rugby
    Registered Users Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭D14Rugby


    Anybody know if there is an end plan for the luas or is it just plan each bit as it comes?


  • #9
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    D14Rugby wrote: »
    Anybody know if there is an end plan for the luas or is it just plan each bit as it comes?

    Theres meant to plans for a new line out to Lucan I'm not if its meant to be a standalone line or a red line spur. I doubt it'll ever happen though.


  • #10
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    D14Rugby wrote: »
    Anybody know if there is an end plan for the luas or is it just plan each bit as it comes?

    There were lots of pre-2008 plans for additional lines (such as BX and D which are now nearing completion as Cross City) but most of them are now out of date, and there was never any endgame plan


  • #11
    D14Rugby
    Registered Users Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭D14Rugby


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Theres meant to plans for a new line out to Lucan I'm not if its meant to be a standalone line or a red line spur. I doubt it'll ever happen though.

    So pretty much just put the tram that did go out there back? Oh I love Irish planning.
    Have you guys ever seen a map of the tram system in the 50's? If that had grown with the city I'd be a very happy man


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  • #12
    AngryLips
    Registered Users Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    D14Rugby wrote: »
    So pretty much just put the tram that did go out there back? Oh I love Irish planning.
    Have you guys ever seen a map of the tram system in the 50's? If that had grown with the city I'd be a very happy man

    The Luas is a million times better than the trams that would've been there before


  • #13
    D14Rugby
    Registered Users Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭D14Rugby


    AngryLips wrote: »
    The Luas is a million times better than the trams that would've been there before

    The actual trams are better but I'm thinking more about the lines, whoever designed the original tram lines had a very good system. Covered most of the city in a relatively basic spiderweb pattern, be nice to see similar things done with future luas expansions. Be a lot harder to do these days though.


  • #14
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,164 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    D14Rugby wrote: »
    Be a lot harder to do these days though.

    Nigh on impossible now. When I'm in Warsaw or Krakow and look at what they've got going its a little depressing, even when some of the rolling stock is so old.


  • #15
    D14Rugby
    Registered Users Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭D14Rugby


    ED E wrote: »
    Nigh on impossible now. When I'm in Warsaw or Krakow and look at what they've got going its a little depressing, even when some of the rolling stock is so old.

    You'd have to close roads now which would cause uproar


  • #16
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    D14Rugby wrote: »
    The actual trams are better but I'm thinking more about the lines, whoever designed the original tram lines had a very good system. Covered most of the city in a relatively basic spiderweb pattern, be nice to see similar things done with future luas expansions. Be a lot harder to do these days though.

    One of the problems with the orginal tram systems was that I think correct if I'm wrong it was Irish gauge rather than standard gauge which the luas is meaning the tracks would be ridiculously wide meaning there would be very little roadspace for cars and buses etc.


  • #17
    ricimaki
    Registered Users Posts: 650 ✭✭✭ricimaki


    MJohnston wrote: »
    There were lots of pre-2008 plans for additional lines (such as BX and D which are now nearing completion as Cross City) but most of them are now out of date, and there was never any endgame plan

    Here's a map of the proposed luas lines (along with DART, metro and BRT) The extensions to Bray and Finglas are the only ones likely to be pursued in the (distant) future


  • #18
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    D14Rugby wrote: »
    So pretty much just put the tram that did go out there back? Oh I love Irish planning.
    Have you guys ever seen a map of the tram system in the 50's? If that had grown with the city I'd be a very happy man

    That map most likely from the 30s. The network was all gone by 50s


  • #19
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,164 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    D14Rugby wrote: »
    You'd have to close roads now which would cause uproar

    #QParkSaysNo


  • #20
    D14Rugby
    Registered Users Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭D14Rugby


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    That map most likely from the 30s. The network was all gone by 50s

    Ah you're right it's from 38 good shout


  • #21
    D14Rugby
    Registered Users Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭D14Rugby


    ricimaki wrote: »
    Here's a map of the proposed luas lines (along with DART, metro and BRT) The extensions to Bray and Finglas are the only ones likely to be pursued in the (distant) future

    That looks quite good, but unlikely to ever happen. Unfortunately


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  • #22
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Theres meant to plans for a new line out to Lucan I'm not if its meant to be a standalone line or a red line spur. I doubt it'll ever happen though.

    The Lucan line had a preferred route. Went through a good bit of planning and public consultation. They were to apply for a railway order in 2010 or something before it was shelved. It was a standalone line from College Green to Lucan but it was to share tracks with the Red line between Fatima and Blackhorse. If you look at the alignment for Luas Cross City, you'll see tracks diverging at College Green. In the end, I don't think they were actually laid during Cross City construction. The College Green section of the Lucan Line has to be revisited with the new plaza going there so they probably didn't bother.

    While we're here, here are the Luas extensions that were built/proposed/mentioned seriously after initial Luas construction during the time of the RPA:

    Luas Line A1 |Red Line spur to Saggart|Built
    Luas Line C1 |Red Line spur to The Point|Built
    Luas Line B1| Green Line extension to Cherrywood|Built
    Luas Line BX| Green Line extension to O'Connell Street|U/C
    Luas Line D | Green Line extension from O'Connell Street to Broombridge| U/C
    Luas Line F | New Line to Lucan sharing some parts of the Red Line| Shelved after a lot of planning


    Green Line extension from Cherrywood to Bray|No plans drawn up
    Red Line extension from The Point to Poolbeg | No plans drawn up
    Green Line extension from Broombridge to Finglas | No plans drawn up

    The last four are still in the 2016-2035 GDA transport strategy.


  • #23
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,359 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    One of the problems with the orginal tram systems was that I think correct if I'm wrong it was Irish gauge rather than standard gauge which the luas is meaning the tracks would be ridiculously wide meaning there would be very little roadspace for cars and buses etc.

    The difference is six and a half inches. It would hardly merit a difference in the width of the tram. If the Irish gauge had been chosen then it would mean trams could run on existing Irish gauge rail lines - a big mistake. The original trams in Ireland ran on the Irish gauge.


  • #24
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    FYI, there's a thread for Luas Lucan here:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057726167

    And one about the general future of Luas extensions and additions here:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057611441


  • #25
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    ricimaki wrote: »
    Here's a map of the proposed luas lines (along with DART, metro and BRT) The extensions to Bray and Finglas are the only ones likely to be pursued in the (distant) future

    Take the proposed lines on that map with a bucket of salt.

    1. All current plans indicate a Red line extension to Poolbeg as opposed to a Lucan line extension.
    2. There were never any selected routes for the Finglas and Bray extensions.
    3. Fassaroe proposal was scrapped. Not in the NTA GDA 2016-2035 strategy. Only a Bray extension.
    4. Luas Line E was dead before it was even planned. I think it was just FF election noise. A feasibility study conducted by the RPA stated that it wouldn't meet running costs.
    5. A second line to Tallaght? Never heard of that. Probably just more election stuff.


  • #26
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The difference is six and a half inches. It would hardly merit a difference in the width of the tram. If the Irish gauge had been chosen then it would mean trams could run on existing Irish gauge rail lines - a big mistake. The original trams in Ireland ran on the Irish gauge.

    And also trams would have to be ordered custom built to Irish gauge. Running trams on the mainline would be quite frankly a disaster for DART, Commuter and Intercity causing delays which we have enough of already riddiculous idea.


  • #27
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭markpb


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    And also trams would have to be ordered custom built to Irish gauge. Running trams on the mainline would be quite frankly a disaster for DART, Commuter and Intercity causing delays which we have enough of already riddiculous idea.

    Mixing trams and trains on the same track is usually not allowed for good safety reasons.


  • #28
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,359 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    And also trams would have to be ordered custom built to Irish gauge. Running trams on the mainline would be quite frankly a disaster for DART, Commuter and Intercity causing delays which we have enough of already riddiculous idea.

    I would have thought just the bogies would need adjustment, but I do not know for sure as I am not a railway designer. It is only 165 mm or 6.5 inches wider.

    I would not expect them to be mixed. However, there are disused lines around Dublin that could be configured for trams.
    markpb wrote: »
    Mixing trams and trains on the same track is usually not allowed for good safety reasons.

    If the tracks are there but unused, or their use changed. For example, the old Harcourt line currently is tram, but could be Dart if it was Irish gauge, and MN was built for Dart. The main question is whether MN is one gauge or the other. Clearly the current plans are for standard gauge.

    However that die is cast - no going back now.


  • #29
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I would have thought just the bogies would need adjustment, but I do not know for sure as I am not a railway designer. It is only 165 mm or 6.5 inches wider.

    I would not expect them to be mixed. However, there are disused lines around Dublin that could be configured for trams.



    If the tracks are there but unused, or their use changed. For example, the old Harcourt line currently is tram, but could be Dart if it was Irish gauge, and MN was built for Dart. The main question is whether MN is one gauge or the other. Clearly the current plans are for standard gauge.

    However that die is cast - no going back now.

    Where are these suitable disused lines around Dublin that could be configured for trams?


  • #30
    AngryLips
    Registered Users Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Where are these suitable disused lines around Dublin that could be configured for trams?

    I would guess that, once BXD comes into operation, all of Dublin's old and current railways will see a level use that has never been matched in their histories.


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  • #31
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    AngryLips wrote: »
    I would guess that, once BXD comes into operation, all of Dublin's old and current railways will see a level use that has never been matched in their histories.

    Precisely - there are none.

    I can't see any reasonable argument requiring tram lines to be built to Irish standard gauge - they are never going to need to be compatible.


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