Future Luas expansion in GDA strategy 2016-2035

MJohnston

Heartbreak Hank wrote: »

I thought one of the main changes to New Metro North is that the trams and stations were to be 60m - has there been a change to this and sense has been seen?

Nobody knows yet, the new new plans are not even started I believe, but the plan known as "New Metro North" won't go ahead.

LeinsterDub

AngryLips wrote: »

There is a dedicated section of the road space in ballymun for metro, there is no reason to put it underground there. Reasons to do so are just nimbyism

30 trams a hour one direction ways or a tram every 1 minutes. When do you expect people to cross the road?

lateconnection wrote: »

Hope it is rejected in favour of a cut and cover tunnel.

Any tunnel would be better than none . But quick logistical question would it not be cheap to keep the TMB in the the tunnel to the Airport rather than surfacing it a Glasnevin and then opening a new portal post Ballymun?

AngryLips

marno21 wrote: »

Is this on the R108? There is dedicated road space for a Luas, not a Metro.

They're the same thing infrastructure wise, apart from carriage length and carriage width.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

30 trams a minute each way or a tram every minute. When do you expect people to cross the road?

Even London's Underground don't run at those frequencies so I'm not sure where you're getting that idea from.

MJohnston

AngryLips wrote: »

They're the same thing infrastructure wise, apart from carriage length and carriage width.



Even London's Underground don't run at those frequencies so I'm not sure where you're getting that idea from.

That frequency is from the previous New Metro North plans:

CramCycle

1 tram every two minutes

LeinsterDub

AngryLips wrote: »

They're the same thing infrastructure wise, apart from carriage length and carriage width.



Even London's Underground don't run at those frequencies so I'm not sure where you're getting that idea from.

Sorry a tram every 2 minutes

MJohnston

CramCycle wrote: »

1 tram every two minutes

Well, more accurately it'd be 1 tram somewhere between every 1 and 2 minutes, or even less than 1 minute if there was congestion on the line!

AngryLips

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Sorry a tram every 2 minutes

I really doubt we would see those frequencies any time soon but even if we do, it's loads of time to cross. Alternatively, I expect they would provide pedestrian over/underpasses

flogen

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They need to figure that out in Ballymun first

If only they hadn't filled in the pedestrian underpasses during the "regeneration" :P

LeinsterDub

AngryLips wrote: »

I really doubt we would see those frequencies any time soon but even if we do, it's loads of time to cross. Alternatively, I expect they would provide pedestrian over/underpasses

The current green line is maxed out in terms of capacity. Trams can't get any longer the only option left is more frequent than the current 3 to 5 minutes.

And traffic over /underpasses? What about a 1.5 km tram underpass. We'll just call it a tunnel?

MJohnston

I've said this before, but I'll say it again: Metro North should and must be underground where necessary to keep it separated from traffic. However, if it comes down to a choice between no Metro North at all and one that runs on surface through Ballymun? Give me the compromised version.

AngryLips

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The current green line is maxed out in terms of capacity. Trams can't get any longer the only option left is more frequent than the current 3 to 5 minutes.

MN will have substantially more capacity from the get-go. There is honestly no sound argument why it should go underground where there is an overground path reserved for it at this location. The only reason it was chosen to go underground here was as a concession to the local residents, and capacity projections did not increased as a result of that decision.

LeinsterDub

AngryLips wrote: »

MN will have substantially more capacity from the get-go. There is honestly no sound argument why it should go underground where there is an overground path reserved for it at this location. The only reason it was chosen to go underground here was as a concession to the local residents, and capacity projections did not increased as a result of that decision.

30 trams per hour per direction
9900 people per per hour per direction
9900/30 circa 330 per tram, the green line holds 369

AngryLips

LeinsterDub wrote: »

30 trams per hour per direction
9900 people per per hour per direction
9900/30 circa 330 per tram, the green line holds 369

What's your point?

LeinsterDub

AngryLips wrote: »

What's your point?

369 is a bigger number than 330. So NMN won't have significantly higher capacity

loyatemu

so what's happens to the remainder of the Green Line when Metro South is commissioned - will it just be Broadstone-Charlemont or could it be extended toward Rathmines/Terenure? (obviously this is a hypothetical question).

LXFlyer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

369 is a bigger number than 330. So NMN won't have significantly higher capacity

Green line only operates at 20 trams/hour though.

AngryLips

My point, which is in response to the claim that putting it underground will increase capacity, is that the capacity of Metro North is unaffected by the outcome of any decision on whether MN should go overground or underground through Ballymun. The suggestion that it should go underground along that stretch has nothing to do with capacity and everything to do with wanting underground for the sake of it ...irrespective of cost.

LeinsterDub

lxflyer wrote: »

Green line only operates at 20 trams/hour though.

I know but Angrylips suggested 30 trams/hour is too many

LeinsterDub

AngryLips wrote: »

My point, which is in response to the claim that putting it underground will increase capacity, is that the capacity of Metro North is unaffected by the outcome of any decision on whether MN should go overground or underground through Ballymun. The suggestion that it should go underground along that stretch has nothing to do with capacity and everything to do with wanting underground for the sake of it ...irrespective of cost.

The capacity will be impacted if the frequency is impacted

AngryLips

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The capacity will be impacted if the frequency is impacted

The frequency isn't compromised either way.

LeinsterDub

AngryLips wrote: »

The frequency isn't compromised either way.

OK circling back to point 1 how do you get 60 trams an hour via Ballymun so?

Peregrine

LeinsterDub wrote: »

30 trams per hour per direction
9900 people per per hour per direction
9900/30 circa 330 per tram, the green line holds 369

The original Metro North capacity was:

15x90m trams per hour. 10,000 ppdph.
Ultimate capacity would be 20,000 ppdph based on increase to 30x90m trams per hour.

New Metro north is maxed from the get go. 30x60m trams per hour. 10,000 ppdph. Utterly moronic.

AngryLips wrote: »

MN will have substantially more capacity from the get-go. There is honestly no sound argument why it should go underground where there is an overground path reserved for it at this location. The only reason it was chosen to go underground here was as a concession to the local residents, and capacity projections did not increased as a result of that decision.

There are several sound arguments for why it should go underground.

What do you mean overground path 'reserved' for it? Surface running through Ballymun would take it through at-grade junctions with several different roads and pedestrian crossings — including three major crossroads —, take it through a busy town centre where high speeds can't be achieved and, with 60 trains going through it every hour, it would split Ballymun down the middle back to what it was like in the old days.The journey times for MN will certainly increase (it may be minimal but it's only logical) and it will most certainly increase for other road users.

There was a conscious and unanimous decision and a significant amount of work done in Ballymun to remove the dual carriageway that went through it and make it a main street that connects different parts of the area. Everyone in the area would remember what it was like before that. Every Ballymun LAP mentions it and the new one (2017) cautiously opposes surface running through Ballymun.

It's not going to happen. It was naive of the consultants of the Fingal & North Dublin Transport Study report to propose it again. It will just be delayed during public consultations until we arrive back at cut-and-cover tunnel.

AngryLips

LeinsterDub wrote: »

OK circling back to point 1 how do you get 60 trams an hour via Ballymun so?

I don't really know where you are going with this question. I didn't claim that there would be 60 trams an hour through Ballymun, I'm just disputing Lateconnection's totally incorrect claim that putting MN underground through Ballymun would increase capacity, because it doesn't. In terms of frequency of trams/trains or their capacities, I don't really have an opinion on that beyond the point that I doubt we will see the once a minute frequencies you're suggesting anytime soon because MN trains will be longer and wider than Luas trams, added to the fact that Luas currently handles their current frequencies pretty well. Also, you're only suggesting once a minute frequencies to support some totally unclear point you seem to be trying to make.

LeinsterDub

AngryLips wrote: »

I don't really know where you are going with this question. I didn't claim that there would be 60 trams an hour through Ballymun, I'm just disputing Lateconnection's totally incorrect claim that putting MN underground through Ballymun would increase capacity, because it doesn't. In terms of frequency of trams/trains or their capacities, I don't really have an opinion on that beyond the point that I doubt we will see the once a minute frequencies that you suggest anytime soon because MN trains will be longer and wider than Luas trams, added to the fact that Luas currently handles those frequencies pretty well.

Frequency = Capacity ; Less frequent , lower capacity.


6 metres longer and not the much wider. If you think Luas is gracefully handle peak capacity you're very much mistaken.

bk

A few points.

The Green line is getting new longer trams and the existing trams are going to be upgraded. They will be 54 meters long and should have about 500 people capacity per tram. They will be the second longest tram in the world.

In terms of "light rail" Luas is actually at the very high end of the spectrum.

Metro North was originally planned to have 90 meter trams and I think they were a bit wider too. Which should mean about 900 people per car.

Capacity is also dictated by the number of trains per hour. MN being mostly underground and fully segregated should be able to have a much higher frequency per hour then a tram that is forced to share a road with traffic and pedestrians. Every 2 minutes would certainly be doable, perhaps even every 90 seconds as some Metros do in the future.

Now we don't know what is going to happen with the "New Metro North" plan, there are no details yet. There were some rumours of 60m trains being planned, but hopefully that will end up being rubbished.

Luas launched with 34m long trams, they were quickly upgraded to 40m, then 43m and now 53m!

It would be terrible if Metro North tunnels and stations weren't built without at least the ability to easily upgrade to bigger trains in future.

Even with 60m trains, Metro North would still have a higher capacity then Luas. Because 60m is longer then 54m, because they are also wider and because of the segregated nature of the line, should have higher frequencies.

However we would really want to build the stations to at least support 90 meter.

BTW the whole "light rail" versus "heavy rail" thing is pretty irrelevant.

Luas and Metro North use the "standard rail gauge" which is used by trains in most of Europe. The fact that it isn't "Irish Gauge" isn't a particularly big deal. In fact it is an advantage as it makes it cheaper and easy to buy off the shelf trains and gear common through out Europe, rather then the mess that Irish Rail has with getting new trains.

In terms of capacity, it is irrelevant. Would you rather a Metro that carries 900 people every 2 minutes or a DART that carries 1,400 every 10 minutes.

Answer Metro as that adds up to a total capacity per direction of 27,000 versus 8,400.

LeinsterDub

bk wrote: »

A few points.

The Green line is getting new longer trams and the existing trams are going to be upgraded. They will be 54 meters long and should have about 500 people capacity per tram.

369
http://www.newstalk.com/Luas-new-trams-Cross-City-Green-line-Citadis-Paschal-Donohoe

bk

LeinsterDub wrote: »

369
http://www.newstalk.com/Luas-new-trams-Cross-City-Green-line-Citadis-Paschal-Donohoe

That, can't be right. According to wiki [1]:

The 26 initial Red Line '3000' class trams were 30m long Citadis 301 configurations with a capacity of 256. The 14 Green Line '4000 class' trams, each 40m Citadis 401 configurations, have a capacity of 358 including two wheelchairs.

So there is no way these new 55m [2] length trams are just an extra 13 people!

I assume the mix up in the article is that 369 is the capacity of the 43 meter models.

There seems to be no numbers for the new 55m, but going by the jump between the 30m and 40m, then about 460 to 470 seems to be about right.

[1] Yes wiki, I know, but these figures are backed up by figures from elsewhere.

[2] Seem to actually be 55m according to this Alstorm press release:
http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/2015/12/alstom-to-deliver-7-additional-trams-to-dublin-ireland/

Maybe the extension to the old ones will be 54 meters only.

Peregrine

That number seems far too high.

Anyway, the current 43m trams that run on the Green Line hold 310 passengers and the new 54m ones will hold 369. I haven't heard anything about extending current trams though. Only that they'll be ordering seven 54m ones for the Green Line.

Edit:
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/new-trams-ordered-for-luas-cross-city/

LeinsterDub

bk wrote: »

That, can't be right.

It is right 9900/30 tphpd gives 330. Capacity of individual teams will be in and around the 369 mark