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Why don't our prisoners work?

124678

Comments

  • #92
    LENNY86
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 112 ✭✭LENNY86


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    Didn't Lucinda want to introduce a three strike rule?

    How did that fair out. Where is she now?


  • #93
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,679 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    LENNY86 wrote: »
    How did that fair out. Where is she now?

    Prison with any luck.


  • #94
    livedadream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭livedadream


    KwackerJack wrote: »
    livedadream wrote: »
    because slavery doesn't exist in Ireland...

    Somebody would want to tell the majority of employers that.....never mind the amount of tax we pay to feed the prisoners!!
    i know god forbid we feed people like this: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/woman-who-failed-to-pay-tv-licence-fine-taken-to-jail-in-fivehour-taxi-trip-31029231.html


  • #95
    Gravelly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,094 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    livedadream wrote: »
    i know god forbid we feed people like this: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/woman-who-failed-to-pay-tv-licence-fine-taken-to-jail-in-fivehour-taxi-trip-31029231.html

    What a truly idiotic system.


  • #96
    fergiesfolly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭fergiesfolly


    Collie D wrote: »
    Imagine you own a small firm in the construction industry. Your local council needs some ditches dug and puts it out to tender. You put in a good estimate and feel confident the job is yours. Along comes Mountjoy Ditch Diggers Ltd. who come in at less than half of estimate due to their low to non-existent labour costs. And with their workforce of a few huindred they can do this again and again on multiple jobs

    To be honest, I'd much prefer that state bodies try and keep costs down and save the taxpayer some money.
    Let the private contractor work within the private sector.


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  • #97
    Bandana boy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,341 ✭✭✭Bandana boy


    There is certainly some merit in asking prisoners to work to pay for their stay
    It does not have to be work that competes with Irish Jobs

    For example there is pretty much no Clothing manufacturing in Ireland these days as we outsource it to Indonesia and the like. Paying pennies per hour to staff and the balance to funding the Prison could be viable.

    Of course there is ethical considerations creating a form of slave labor and you would need good regulation to ensure those deciding prison sentences and length are insulated from any influence from those selling that labor.


  • #98
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    Just think when someone breaks into your home assaults you and robs from you, you get to pick up the tab for these guys defending themselves in court.

    Marvellous.


  • #99
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    Pure tashte wrote: »
    The three strike rule is a ridiculous law that has seen many low level criminals get absurd life sentences for minor crimes.

    I lot of things I thought was ridiculous in my youth now look like obvious reactions to the nonsense nature of the modern justice system. Disagree with them (or not) I see how the US ended up with them.


  • #100
    livedadream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭livedadream


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    Just think when someone breaks into your home assaults you and robs from you, you get to pick up the tab for these guys defending themselves in court.

    Marvellous.
    yes it is, the same way if you are falsely accused of something you can avail of it. it works both ways...


  • #101
    Gravelly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,094 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    livedadream wrote: »
    yes it is, the same way if you are falsely accused of something you can avail of it. it works both ways...

    Only if you don't have a job or savings though, otherwise the tab is still on you.
    Heads you lose, tails I win kinda thing.


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  • #102
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    livedadream wrote: »
    yes it is, the same way if you are falsely accused of something you can avail of it. it works both ways...

    And if the person is found guilty?


  • #103
    biscuithead
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 157 ✭✭biscuithead


    neris wrote: »
    probably against their human rights and all that pc liberal bolloxology

    Are you opposed to human rights?


  • #104
    biscuithead
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 157 ✭✭biscuithead


    Gravelly wrote: »
    Going by the above, you would fit quite nicely in the do-gooder brigade.

    Why should it only be implemented if it proves to cut reoffending rates?

    Why should prisoners be guaranteed employment? Why should they be rewarded for breaking the law?

    The above attitude is the reason prison has become a holiday camp for the recidivist criminal - the do-gooders dread that the poor prisoner might have to get out of the scratcher in the morning and do a days labour - that's only for the foolish law-abiding apparently!

    It seems that in order to justify your narrowminded draconian worldview you have to resort to petty insults directed against anyone who disagrees with the infantilism of your recommendations.

    Are you proposing forced labour? If so, then why don't you go and check the legality of forced labour. Then come back to us with the date that you propose for a referendum whereby Ireland should vote to de-ratify all conventions on Human Rights. Those who vote NO, you can stamp your feet and call them "do-gooders"


  • #105
    Gravelly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,094 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    biscuithead wrote: »
    It seems that in order to justify your narrowminded draconian worldview you have to resort to petty insults directed against anyone who disagrees with the infantilism of your recommendations.

    Google "Irony"
    biscuithead wrote: »
    Are you proposing forced labour? If so, then why don't you go and check the legality of forced labour. Then come back to us with the date that you propose for a referendum whereby Ireland should vote to de-ratify all conventions on Human Rights. Those who vote NO, you can stamp your feet and call them "do-gooders"

    Maybe if you read my post on what I proposed, rather than prematurely ejaculating your incoherent snowflakery all over the thread, we might have a position to start from?


  • #106
    biscuithead
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 157 ✭✭biscuithead


    Summer wind wrote: »
    I'm not depending on newspapers for information about prison living conditions. What iv said is the truth. They do have a gym and 3 course meals and tv.


    "3 course meals" FFS

    Now you're trying to equate:

    - bowl of soup
    - meatballs and mash
    - tub of yoghurt or piece of fruit

    with

    - Angus carpaccio with shaved parmesan and extra virgin Tuscan olive oil
    - Biscay lobster thermador and filet mignon surf n turf
    - Armagnac drizzled tirimisu


    Just because they have 3 damn courses

    And they have TV. Would you prefer a prisoner to be staring at a TV or at the wall because I know what the guards would prefer.

    And they have a gym. So EFFING what? Of course now, like your 3 course trick, you'll try and say that a few machines, punch bags and free weights in a room is actually a 5 star health spa replete with jacuzzis, steam rooms, saunas, 24/7 massages, pedicures etc., that would not look out of place in Monte Carlo or Dubai.


  • #107
    Gravelly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,094 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    biscuithead wrote: »
    "3 course meals" FFS

    Now you're trying to equate:

    - bowl of soup
    - meatballs and mash
    - tub of yoghurt or piece of fruit

    with

    - Angus carpaccio with shaved parmesan and extra virgin Tuscan olive oil
    - Biscay lobster thermador and filet mignon surf n turf
    - Armagnac drizzled tirimisu


    Just because they have 3 damn courses

    And they have TV. Would you prefer a prisoner to be staring at a TV or at the wall because I know what the guards would prefer.

    And they have a gym. So EFFING what? Of course now, like your 3 course trick, you'll try and say that a few machines, punch bags and free weights in a room is actually a 5 star health spa replete with jacuzzis, steam rooms, saunas, 24/7 massages, pedicures etc., that would not look out of place in Monte Carlo or Dubai.

    Also Google "logical fallacy by conflation"


  • #108
    biscuithead
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 157 ✭✭biscuithead


    Gravelly wrote: »
    At present "your" money is being spent on providing Sky Sports and Playstations to recidivist criminals with absolutely no evidence that it does anything other than make them want to go back inside on numerous occasions for "a break".
    When they don't feel like a break, "your" money is spent, in vast quantities, ensuring they get legal representation to stay out, regardless of their record.

    The definition of madness is trying the same thing over and over, expecting a different result - forcing prisoners to work may not be the solution, but it sure beats doing nothing.

    Can you provide evidence where the state provides prisoners with game consoles?


  • #109
    Gravelly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,094 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    biscuithead wrote: »
    Can you provide evidence where the state provides prisoners with game consoles?

    http://www.thejournal.ie/prisoners-riot-gear-fishtank-2089602-May2015/

    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/lonergan-defends-prisoners-access-to-playstations-631367.html

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/145k-taxpayers-bill-for-prisoners-to-watch-sky-sports-30754201.html

    That took about 20 seconds. Google is your friend.


  • #110
    biscuithead
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 157 ✭✭biscuithead


    Gravelly wrote: »
    I think you may be misunderstanding. Speaking for myself, I'm not saying prison is nice and easy, I'm saying prison is far less uncomfortable than it should be.
    It's not The Hilton, but why should it be? Prison should surely do two things:

    1) Encourage reformation of the criminals character and help him readjust to a useful life after release

    2) Discourage the criminal from a return visit

    The Irish prison system would appear not only not to do either of these things, but not to even attempt to do them.

    Work would surely help reform the prisoners character, and help him prepare for life afterwards, and a tougher regime, where perks are earned not given automatically, would surely discourage return visits.

    I realise that many people, especially those in the Irish legal profession, recoil at the thought that prison should be anything other than as comfy as possible, and bereft of any responsibility for the prisoner to attempt to reform himself, but that is surely not the best for society in general.

    The word "would" seems quite recurring in your post(s). Have you any evidence that your proposals actually DO produce the results you claim they would?


  • #111
    y0ssar1an22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,446 ✭✭✭✭y0ssar1an22


    stick them on job bridge. where was the UN human rights $hite back then?.

    to appease some folk, no 3 strike rule. perhaps a 20 strike rule? would that be agreeable?


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  • #112
    Gravelly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,094 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    biscuithead wrote: »
    The word "would" seems quite recurring in your post(s). Have you any evidence that your proposals actually DO produce the results you claim they would?

    No response to the playstation stuff eh?

    Well, other than common sense (which seems to be extremely uncommon among a certain cohort), I have no evidence that they wouldn't - have you?


  • #113
    biscuithead
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 157 ✭✭biscuithead



    Here's a novel idea - if prisoners had work to do, perhaps the rates of drug addiction would go down? Perhaps if we made prison a bit more like having to do a days work, we wouldn't have so many coming back time and time again? Maybe if we trained prisoners in useful skills, they might get a job that didn't involve crime? Who knows? You certainly don't.

    This is just priceless. I refer to all those people who had no jobs and were smokers. Then they all got jobs and were suddenly cured of their nicotine addiction. I could make millions on this. Buy my book for $29.95 and I guarantee you will quit drugs overnight!"

    (inside the book....300 pages with the words "GET A JOB" printed in bold on each one)


  • #114
    Gravelly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,094 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    biscuithead wrote: »
    This is just priceless. I refer to all those people who had no jobs and were smokers. Then they all got jobs and were suddenly cured of their nicotine addiction. I could make millions on this. Buy my book for $29.95 and I guarantee you will quit drugs overnight!"

    (inside the book....300 pages with the words "GET A JOB" printed in bold on each one)

    Google "argument from incredulity"


  • #115
    biscuithead
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 157 ✭✭biscuithead


    Gravelly wrote: »
    Better call the UNHCR, apparently having prisoners work is like beating and lynching them.


    All you do is throw out cheap, throwaway, snotty little comments like this. You don't back up a single thing you say and then you contradict yourself left, right and centre.

    In one post you advocated having prison inmates dig trenches and then fill them in. Build walls and then knock them down. And that's your idea of a valuable pursuit. In another post you bang on about how you want prisoners to learn valuable skills so they can become productive members of society. In yet another post you state that they should be exposed to a day's work so that they wouldn't want to return to prison.

    So are you saying that you want to teach them that working is so terrible that they will never want to do it? Or that they will want to do it?

    You haven't thought this through have you?


  • #116
    Gravelly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,094 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    biscuithead wrote: »
    All you do is throw out cheap, throwaway, snotty little comments like this. You don't back up a single thing you say and then you contradict yourself left, right and centre.

    You seem to be reading your own posts. You haven't made a single intelligent argument yet.
    biscuithead wrote: »
    In one post you advocated having prison inmates dig trenches and then fill them in. Build walls and then knock them down. And that's your idea of a valuable pursuit.

    Here's a shock for you - that's how blocklayers get trained - are they slaves? Should we call the UNHCR to rescue the apprentices of Ireland? In order to learn a manual skill it is necessary to practise that skill, cruel and all as that might seem.
    biscuithead wrote: »
    In another post you bang on about how you want prisoners to learn valuable skills so they can become productive members of society. In yet another post you state that they should be exposed to a day's work so that they wouldn't want to return to prison.

    Those two things aren't incompatible, believe it or not.
    biscuithead wrote: »
    So are you saying that you want to teach them that working is so terrible that they will never want to do it? Or that they will want to do it?

    Or, here's one to get the old grey matter warmed up, perhaps if one was getting paid on the outside to do the same job, one would consider it a bit of a waste to go inside to do the same job for free.
    biscuithead wrote: »
    You haven't thought this through have you?

    I have. Unfortunately, in your spluttering snowflakery, you fail to look at anything that might upset the status quo in dread that it might actually work.


  • #117
    biscuithead
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 157 ✭✭biscuithead


    Really Interested wrote: »
    The huge part of the prison budget is from memory over 70% is wages for staff. Food budget is 1.50 a day per prisoner or about 7000 a day to feed them all.

    So there are 2.044 million people working in ireland.

    So each employed person pays 7000 / 2,044,000 per day to feed prisoners.
    That works out at 0.0034 euros per day per person

    OR

    €1.24 per annum.

    Is that too much for you, KwakkerJack?


  • #118
    Kimbot
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 18,889 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kimbot


    biscuithead wrote: »
    Can you provide evidence where the state provides prisoners with game consoles?
    Gravelly wrote: »
    http://www.thejournal.ie/prisoners-riot-gear-fishtank-2089602-May2015/

    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/lonergan-defends-prisoners-access-to-playstations-631367.html

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/145k-taxpayers-bill-for-prisoners-to-watch-sky-sports-30754201.html

    That took about 20 seconds. Google is your friend.

    The state don't provide them for the prisoners. PS1 and PS2's were available to buy in tuck shops for prisoners at their own cost. So the prisoners themselves buy them.


  • #119
    Gravelly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,094 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    jonnycivic wrote: »
    The state don't provide them for the prisoners. PS1 and PS2's were available to buy in tuck shops for prisoners at their own cost. So the prisoners themselves buy them.

    "A PRISONER WHO has attacked more than two dozen prison officers over the past decade is currently being bought Playstation games by prison managers and has a fish tank outside his cell"


  • #120
    Kimbot
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 18,889 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kimbot


    Gravelly wrote: »
    "A PRISONER WHO has attacked more than two dozen prison officers over the past decade is currently being bought Playstation games by prison managers and has a fish tank outside his cell"

    Well the prison officers do have to go outside the prison to buy the games on behalf of the prisoners but they are not funded by the state they are funded by the prisoners themselves.


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  • #121
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,384 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    There could be an option them to attain one level higher in education than they currently have, in return for a reduction in sentence.


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