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VW emissions software update - disaster

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Comments

  • #242
    Buffman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭Buffman


    Casati wrote: »
    Has anybody on here done a rolling road test before and after? I guess that would be v useful in proving a point?
    Toyotafanboi wrote: »
    I've asked that loads of times. It'd be interesting to see the results no matter what they go to prove/ disprove. I don't think anyone credible has yet but I havn't looked too hard

    Other than the one I linked before, the only other one I've come across so far was a 140PS Yeti in 3rd gear. It shows changes at lower RPM, but his second 'after' test starts a few 100rpm after the 'before' one. The owner seems happy enough with it.

    http://www.yetiownersclub.co.uk/forum/power-yeti-140ps-before-after-software-update_topic5262_page1.html
    I wrote a post on 26th November providing the power and torque output graphs for our 140PS 4WD 6-gear manual Yeti as measured on a dynamometer.. The software upgrade to correct the 'cheat' software was carried out today and I immediately went to have the test repeated. I'm now providing an update and for easy comparison the before and after graphs are overlaid and printed below. The Yeti had the same grade supermarket diesel and the engine was warm. The test was performed on both occasions in third gear as for technical reasons it cannot be done in a higher gear, hence the torque is lower than the manufacturer's figure but the power output is the true value. In any case, the test conditions are identical. The results follow and I am very pleased with them, as you'll see.
    Performance_curves.jpg
    The power output before was 137.2 HP and after was 139.8 HP, although the difference is trivial. Of more importance is the very close match of both the torque and power curves. I'll be monitoring the fuel consumption closely, but I achieved 48mpg before the change and 47mpg after, although I was pushing the car hard to check on acceleration, which subjectively was just as good as before. So in conclusion, no noticeable change. Incidentally the only 'perk' I received was a goody bag with a Skoda mug, a Skoda notebook, a keyring and a biro. If any problems do arise, I'll give an update.

    The below is a general 'signature' and not part of any post:

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  • #243
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,334 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Toyotafanboi wrote: »
    I've asked that loads of times. It'd be interesting to see the results no matter what they go to prove/ disprove. I don't think anyone credible has yet but I havn't looked too hard

    If there was no performance or reliability degradation as a result of the fix why would they put the cheat device in in the first place.

    There has to be a downside to applying the fix, surely?


  • #244
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,419 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    KCross wrote: »
    If there was no performance or reliability degradation as a result of the fix why would they put the cheat device in in the first place.

    There has to be a downside to applying the fix, surely?

    Cheats moved into the measurement software. billions at stake.


  • #245
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,334 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    Cheats moved into the measurement software. billions at stake.

    I don't understand your point. Billions at stake alright, I get that.

    What do you mean by cheats moving into software?

    VW cheated so they could sell their cars without complying to emissions test. Applying the fix which now supposedly makes the car comply cannot, logically, have no effect on the performance and reliability of the car. If that were the case they wouldn't have cheated in the first place.


  • #246
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,286 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    Toyotafanboi wrote: »
    Maybe its certain drivers, the ones hoping to find side affects, that suffer the worst from them?

    Just to play devils advocate...

    What have we actually got in this thread? Some anecdotal testimony of slight MPG decreases, which would be a standard expectation if the ECU software is reset under any circumstances anyway and an EGR failure on an engine that is already famed for EGR failure?
    You keep trying to place the blame on the driver and present the VW group in the best possible light, no matter how many posts show issues with this "fix".
    What about this post where a company showed actual data of a car that had went through the recall.
    Is this all in their and the drivers head?


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  • #247
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,344 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    GDY151


    I'd love to know if VW was Irish based what the outcome for EU motorists would have been?


  • #248
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Casati wrote: »
    Has anybody on here done a rolling road test before and after? I guess that would be v useful in proving a point?




    lol, car knows it's on a dyno and returns the same power as before the upgrade


    .


  • #249
    exaisle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,676 ✭✭✭exaisle


    Is there any way of finding out whether the update has been carried out or not (on a second-hand car)?

    BTW, I have the full version of VAGCOM..


  • #250
    shanec1928
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,231 ✭✭✭shanec1928


    exaisle wrote: »
    Is there any way of finding out whether the update has been carried out or not (on a second-hand car)?

    BTW, I have the full version of VAGCOM..
    it was posted a few pages back if you stick the reg into the campaigns check from vw it should tell you if it's been done or is available for that car.


  • #251
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,334 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    shanec1928 wrote: »
    it was posted a few pages back if you stick the reg into the campaigns check from vw it should tell you if it's been Downes or is available for that car.

    My understanding is that that website just tells you if the car is part of the recall but doesn't actually tell you if the fix has been applied.
    https://campaigncheck.ie/


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  • #252
    Gwynston
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 919 ✭✭✭Gwynston


    No it tells you alright.
    Tested my Golf and that site reports this:

    The EA189 Technical measure for this vehicle has been carried out.


  • #253
    jcd5971
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,549 ✭✭✭jcd5971


    Micky 32 wrote:
    My EGR failed despite being driven lively. They are a common fault and they will all fail eventually regardless how you drive, still mine lasted nearly 100k miles.

    I can't believe I missed this thread EGR went in my 2011 Passat. Absolute nightmare to fix 3 weeks in garage parts replaced but they could not get the lights on dash to stay out.
    They then came back saying it was the dpf filter causing it and it had to be regenerated ( whatever that meant I dunno).

    So eventually car back cost well over a thousand to fix but at least it's working.
    Fast forward 2 months get the letter for the update brought it in get it done,. And boom lights on dash again 😞.

    Back to dealer they check it and insist it's fine just a faulty wire and to ignore it... Joke


  • #254
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    KCross wrote: »
    My understanding is that that website just tells you if the car is part of the recall but doesn't actually tell you if the fix has been applied.
    https://campaigncheck.ie/

    Mine is reported as being done, but not with my say so.


  • #255
    RedorDead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,596 ✭✭✭RedorDead


    jcd5971 wrote: »
    I can't believe I missed this thread EGR went in my 2011 Passat. Absolute nightmare to fix 3 weeks in garage parts replaced but they could not get the lights on dash to stay out.
    They then came back saying it was the dpf filter causing it and it had to be regenerated ( whatever that meant I dunno).

    So eventually car back cost well over a thousand to fix but at least it's working.
    Fast forward 2 months get the letter for the update brought it in get it done,. And boom lights on dash again 😞.

    Back to dealer they check it and insist it's fine just a faulty wire and to ignore it... Joke

    Does your car get regular long motorway trips or is it confined mainly to urban driving? Id say 50-60% of diesel cars bought since 2008 werent actually needed and the driver would have been better suited driving petrol or alternative power but sure we all love the cheap tax! :rolleyes:


  • #256
    jcd5971
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,549 ✭✭✭jcd5971


    RedorDead wrote:
    Does your car get regular long motorway trips or is it confined mainly to urban driving? Id say 50-60% of diesel cars bought since 2008 werent actually needed and the driver would have been better suited driving petrol or alternative power but sure we all love the cheap tax!


    No I have about a 2 hour commute roundtrip everyday for work and weekend I'd be all over the place. If anything my mileage is a bit on the high side of average.
    Car is well taken care of too it's not ****ed about at all.


  • #257
    jelutong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭jelutong


    Check out Autocar Magazine website. Article on the effect of software update on VW Touran Diesel fuel consumption. Test conducted at Milbank Testing Centre.


  • #258
    Kimbot
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 18,857 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kimbot


    jcd5971 wrote: »
    I can't believe I missed this thread EGR went in my 2011 Passat. Absolute nightmare to fix 3 weeks in garage parts replaced but they could not get the lights on dash to stay out.
    They then came back saying it was the dpf filter causing it and it had to be regenerated ( whatever that meant I dunno).

    So eventually car back cost well over a thousand to fix but at least it's working.
    Fast forward 2 months get the letter for the update brought it in get it done,. And boom lights on dash again 😞.

    Back to dealer they check it and insist it's fine just a faulty wire and to ignore it... Joke

    Man forget about the dealer, if your still having issues bring it up to Daltons and get them to check it out. They should sort your issues out.


  • #259
    Kimbot
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 18,857 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kimbot


    jelutong wrote: »
    Check out Autocar Magazine website. Article on the effect of software update on VW Touran Diesel fuel consumption. Test conducted at Milbank Testing Centre.

    Any chance of an ould summary?


  • #260
    knipex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭knipex


    jonnycivic wrote: »
    Any chance of an ould summary?

    NOx emissions Down almost 50%.

    Fuel economy worse by 6.5%


  • #261
    GavMan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,942 ✭✭✭GavMan


    jonnycivic wrote: »
    Any chance of an ould summary?

    https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/autocar-test-shows-worse-economy-after-volkswagen-diesel-fix


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  • #262
    Buffman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭Buffman


    jelutong wrote: »
    Check out Autocar Magazine website. Article on the effect of software update on VW Touran Diesel fuel consumption. Test conducted at Milbank Testing Centre.

    Interesting article.
    Autocar test shows worse economy after Volkswagen diesel fix

    It revealed that while NOx emissions were almost halved from 0.639g/km pre-fix to 0.351g/km post-fix, our test car’s combined fuel economy had fallen from 50.72mpg to 47.61mpg. This means that its CO2 emissions increased from 147.3g/km to 156.9g/km, a change of 6.5%.
    Basically what others have said already on this thread, you can't 'fix' NOx without effecting other things, it's not some sort of magic trick.
    In total, three engines are being fixed in the UK by VW: 1.2, 1.6 and 2.0 versions of the EA189 engine. The number of different combinations of car, transmission, engine and so on comes to 750, meaning VW needed to come up with 750 different fixes.
    This shows the possible reason some owners are reporting no problems, while others are. It's not a case of one 'fix' fits all, some models may be OK with their 'fix' and some may not.
    Volkswagen's response to our test
    “Volkswagen was not provided with sufficient information concerning the testing criteria nor an explanation of how such a cycle is representative of real-world driving.
    ................
    - Despite VW’s claim, Autocar supplied all test details requested by the manufacturer.
    The usual 'head in the sand' response from VAG. At this stage, if I was the owner of one of the affected vehicles, not only would I not be 'fixing' it, I'd be seriously considering getting rid of it quick before second hand values start get driven down by this.

    The below is a general 'signature' and not part of any post:

    FYI, if you move to a 'smart' meter electricity plan, you CAN'T move back to a non-smart plan.

    You don't have to take a 'smart' meter if you don't want one, opt-out is available.

    Buy drinks in 3L or bigger plastic bottles or glass bottles or cartons to avoid the DRS fee.



  • #263
    joeysoap
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,267 ✭✭✭joeysoap


    My son bought a 2nd 1.9 Diesel Jetta from a VW dealer about 2 days before the sh**e hit the fan. (Obviously the dealer knew). But it didn't really bother him. He got the letter from VW to take the car in for fix, which he had carried out last week. Since then engine warning lights have come on 3 times. First time was on the M1 and (to cut story short) VW Swords couldn't find the fault. (Light was out when they towed the car to garage) gave him back the car.

    After getting the car back the light came back on the next together with another warning light. That was yesterday.

    Returned the car this morning to the original dealer and that dealer is now saying the problem has nothing to do with the fix and the problem is an EGR valve which will cost him €900 for the part alone.

    I have googled this EGR thing and it's to do with exhaust gas recirculating back to the engine cylinders.

    Just putting this out there for opinions. Has this anything or nothing to do with the fix? Car was perfect until the fix.

    Thanks


  • #264
    Toyotafanboi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭Toyotafanboi


    joeysoap wrote: »
    (Obviously the dealer knew).

    How is that obvious? I doubt staff at dealership level across the world were aware days before the scandal made the news.


  • #265
    Stallingrad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,299 ✭✭✭Stallingrad


    You'd want to be off your head to buy a second hand VW now, such a minefield.


  • #266
    Toyotafanboi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭Toyotafanboi


    Stallingrad wrote: »
    You'd want to be off your head to buy a second hand VW now, such a minefield.

    You'd want to be off your head buying a second hand VW at all.

    The "technical measure" is easily spotted. VW even have a website that helps you avoid it.


  • #267
    grogi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,618 ✭✭✭grogi


    joeysoap wrote: »
    Just putting this out there for opinions. Has this anything or nothing to do with the fix? Car was perfect until the fix.

    Yes, it has a lot. By letting more exhaust gases back into the combustion chamber, the amount of emitted NOx is significantly reduced.

    I can only speculate here - but TDI probably did not really use the EGR that much before the fix. After the fix the engine uses the EGR much more intensely to reduce NOx emissions. The valve was probably on its last legs, but it did not manifest, while the fix just stressed it beyond.


  • #268
    joeysoap
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,267 ✭✭✭joeysoap


    grogi wrote: »
    Yes, it has a lot. By letting more exhaust gases back into the combustion chamber, the amount of emitted NOx is significantly reduced.

    I can only speculate here - but TDI probably did not really use the EGR that much before the fix. After the fix the engine uses the EGR much more intensely to reduce NOx emissions. The valve was probably on its last legs, but it did not manifest, while the fix just stressed it beyond.

    Thanks for reply. Car was left in for 6 monthly service and fix last week. (The car has been serviced every 6 months by the main dealer since new). The car is driven on the M1 4/5 times a week and the previous owner also commuted to Dublin daily, and a timing belt is also now due. But this was unexpected. Best course of action might be to ask VW for a deal?


  • #269
    Odyssey 2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,064 ✭✭✭✭Odyssey 2005


    joeysoap wrote: »
    My son bought a 2nd 1.9 Diesel Jetta from a VW dealer about 2 days before the sh**e hit the fan. (Obviously the dealer knew). But it didn't really bother him. He got the letter from VW to take the car in for fix, which he had carried out last week. Since then engine warning lights have come on 3 times. First time was on the M1 and (to cut story short) VW Swords couldn't find the fault. (Light was out when they towed the car to garage) gave him back the car.

    After getting the car back the light came back on the next together with another warning light. That was yesterday.

    Returned the car this morning to the original dealer and that dealer is now saying the problem has nothing to do with the fix and the problem is an EGR valve which will cost him €900 for the part alone.

    I have googled this EGR thing and it's to do with exhaust gas recirculating back to the engine cylinders.

    Just putting this out there for opinions. Has this anything or nothing to do with the fix? Car was perfect until the fix.

    Thanks

    I had the same problem with my car. High mileage,owned from new and meticulously maintained in a Skoda main dealers. Got the update done and Christmas came early...lights wise anyway :(.. Dealers took the car and after a few days said it was an exhaust sensor. They also said the fault was in the car before the update . There was no warning lights on so I'm sceptical about that one. Anyway Skoda met most of the repair bill but in my opinion they fuked up an excellent car as I have zero confidence in it and it is worth nothing now..


  • #270
    Toyotafanboi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭Toyotafanboi


    Odyssey 2005 wrote: »
    it is worth nothing now..

    What are you basing this on? The fact that it's a high miles or that it's had the update done?


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  • #271
    jcd5971
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,549 ✭✭✭jcd5971


    I wonder do they even care about the loss of Goodwill this has caused, I've bought all vw cars with the exception of 1 ever. And I can categorically say with certainty that I'm never buying a Volkswagen ever again after this.


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