Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

tayto lover · 12-05-2017 09:52PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

If he just killed himself and planned it in great detail would people accept he had a mental health illness?

No.
There are many reasons for suicide, owing money, relationship break-down, shame for example.

Ken. · 13-05-2017 12:04AM

Mod-political analyst do not post in this thread again.

Zubeneschamali · 13-05-2017 07:20AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ido you think mental illness is usually an excuse for behaviour?

Perhaps you have never seen a news story like this one:

A man who suffers from paranoid schizophrenia who killed his parents with an axe has been found not guilty of murder by reason of insanity.
Julian Cuddihy, 43, was charged with murdering 73-year-old Kathleen Cuddihy and 77-year-old James Cuddihy at their family home in Churchtown, Carndonagh, Co Donegal on 22 October 2014.
After 40 minutes of deliberations the jury of seven men and five women came back with unanimous verdicts on both counts of not guilty by reason of insanity.
Justice Margaret Heneghan committed Mr Cuddihy to the Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum in Dublin for assessment.

This man was literally found not guilty of murder because of his mental illness.

Zubeneschamali · 13-05-2017 07:29AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Did anyone on this thread say it would cause his behaviour? .

Hmm, let's take a look:

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If murder suicide isn't a bit of a mental health red flag, then I don't know what is.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

There is no evidence that he dabbled in murder before this so it's fairly clear that to go from zero murderous experience to entire familial murder suicide, without any kind of psychotic break is highly unlikely.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'd say it's hard to jump from A to B without other factors with the ability to cause a huge escalation in behaviour, such as a psychotic break.

So yes, someone has repeatedly said that mental illness would cause Hawe to kill his family: you.

Cianmcliam · 14-05-2017 10:39PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Hmm, let's take a look:

So yes, someone has repeatedly said that mental illness would cause Hawe to kill his family: you.

The pilot of the Germanwings flight who flew the plane into the side of a mountain leading to the death of 149 other people appeared completely normal to everyone working with him. Not one person interviewed that worked with him knew or suspected that he had any mental health issues. Right up until the time the captain left the cockpit to use the toilet after which he proceeded to lock the cockpit door, dial in an altitude of 100 feet and then calmly waited until they all ploughed into a remote mountain.

What the people around him didn't know is that he once had a major depressive disorder, had a no-suicide pact with his psychiatrist and was experiencing a serious relapse at the time of the crash. A week or so before the crash his GP referred him to a psychiatric hospital for suspected psychosis. Not a single person he spent the days and minutes before the crash with guessed there was something hugely wrong with him for weeks beforehand.

JP Liz V1 · 14-05-2017 11:14PM

Toots wrote: »

Most likely to be buried elsewhere or cremated and have the ashes scattered or buried elsewhere. AFAIK it was the local priest who recommended the joint funeral and burial.

I thought Mrs. Hawe's family surely could have objected to the joint burial from the start

Zubeneschamali · 15-05-2017 11:22AM

Cianmcliam wrote: »

The pilot of the Germanwings flight ...not a single person he spent the days and minutes before the crash with guessed there was something hugely wrong with him for weeks beforehand.

Once again - I am not saying that I know Hawe had no mental health issues. As far as I can recall, no-one here or in the last huge thread ever claimed that.

What we are saying is that there is no evidence to support the common assertion that he definitely had mental health issues.

pilly · 15-05-2017 11:25AM

Cianmcliam wrote: »

The pilot of the Germanwings flight who flew the plane into the side of a mountain leading to the death of 149 other people appeared completely normal to everyone working with him. Not one person interviewed that worked with him knew or suspected that he had any mental health issues. Right up until the time the captain left the cockpit to use the toilet after which he proceeded to lock the cockpit door, dial in an altitude of 100 feet and then calmly waited until they all ploughed into a remote mountain.

What the people around him didn't know is that he once had a major depressive disorder, had a no-suicide pact with his psychiatrist and was experiencing a serious relapse at the time of the crash. A week or so before the crash his GP referred him to a psychiatric hospital for suspected psychosis. Not a single person he spent the days and minutes before the crash with guessed there was something hugely wrong with him for weeks beforehand.

That case is a good example but there were definite signs there beforehand, maybe not to friends and colleagues but to doctors etc.

There's never been any indication that Hawes even attended a doctor for mental health issues so totally different story.

There have been plenty of cases in the past when in the lead up to an event like this the person was looking for help.

Cianmcliam · 15-05-2017 11:50AM

pilly wrote: »

That case is a good example but there were definite signs there beforehand, maybe not to friends and colleagues but to doctors etc.

There's never been any indication that Hawes even attended a doctor for mental health issues so totally different story.

There have been plenty of cases in the past when in the lead up to an event like this the person was looking for help.

Andreas Lubitz had to get regular thorough medical assessments because of his job as a pilot. If he had not been a pilot he may never had gone to the doctor about mental health problems. We have absolutely no idea how many people are going through these kinds of mental breakdowns without ever consulting a doctor. The main reason he was visiting doctors before the crash was because he believed his eyesight was deteriorating yet no organic cause of this was found.

He was flying airplanes alongside an experienced captain who had no idea he was going through a psychotic, suicidal episode but people here are saying how could Alan Hawe have written notes?

pilly · 15-05-2017 11:53AM

Cianmcliam wrote: »

Andreas Lubitz had to get regular thorough medical assessments because of his job as a pilot. If he had not been a pilot he may never had gone to the doctor about mental health problems. We have absolutely no idea how many people are going through these kinds of mental breakdowns without ever consulting a doctor. The main reason he was visiting doctors before the crash was because he believed his eyesight was deteriorating yet no organic cause of this was found.

He was flying airplanes alongside an experienced captain who had no idea he was going through a psychotic, suicidal episode but people here are saying how could Alan Hawe have written notes?

Hang on a second, you've said above that Lubitz went to a psychiatrist and previously had a major depressive episode? Now he only went to the doctor with his eyesight?

Cianmcliam · 15-05-2017 12:04PM

pilly wrote: »

Hang on a second, you've said above that Lubitz went to a psychiatrist and previously had a major depressive episode? Now he only went to the doctor with his eyesight?

During his training he had a major depressive episode and visited a psychiatrist for several months. After this, the psychiatrist certified that the illness had been successfully treated. He was given a medical cert to fly a few months after that on the provision that if he had a relapse the medical cert would become invalid.

It was several years later that he experienced the relapse but, knowing that he would lose his job, he covered it up and pretended all was fine up until the day he caused the crash.

El_Duderino 09 · 15-05-2017 12:09PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ido you think mental illness is usually an excuse for behaviour?

Perhaps you have never seen a news story like this one:

A man who suffers from paranoid schizophrenia who killed his parents with an axe has been found not guilty of murder by reason of insanity.
Julian Cuddihy, 43, was charged with murdering 73-year-old Kathleen Cuddihy and 77-year-old James Cuddihy at their family home in Churchtown, Carndonagh, Co Donegal on 22 October 2014.
After 40 minutes of deliberations the jury of seven men and five women came back with unanimous verdicts on both counts of not guilty by reason of insanity.
Justice Margaret Heneghan committed Mr Cuddihy to the Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum in Dublin for assessment.

This man was literally found not guilty of murder because of his mental illness.

Ah yeah in the legal sense he was found not guilty of one of the legal definitions of murder. He was still found guilty of killing and he want let away Scott free. The case acknowledged that he committed the killing. I think that you could get upset about conflating legal definitions and colloquial uses of the terms. In a legal sense he was found not guilty of murder but was definitely found guilty of unlawful killing. In a colloquial sense he was found guilty and will be locked away from society so it's all the same really.

The victim remains dead and the killer gets incarcerated. The only difference is the legal words used to describe it. You're hardly going to quibble about the words, are you?

volchitsa · 15-05-2017 01:06PM

Cianmcliam wrote: »

During his training he had a major depressive episode and visited a psychiatrist for several months. After this, the psychiatrist certified that the illness had been successfully treated. He was given a medical cert to fly a few months after that on the provision that if he had a relapse the medical cert would become invalid.

It was several years later that he experienced the relapse but, knowing that he would lose his job, he covered it up and pretended all was fine up until the day he caused the crash.

But you're assuming that the previous major episode would have gone unnoticed by all, had he not been a pilot. I don't think that's the case - do you have any evidence that nobody else noticed the first episode?

Whereas for Alan Hawe there is nothing, no previous consultation related to mental health, not even for any possibly psychosomatic problem like Lubitz' eyesight issue. No medication ever, nothing.

In fact for Lubitz we don't actually know whether his coworkers and family had noticed any deterioration in his mental state before the crash itself - it's quite possible that they did, but that they trusted the medical system in place to put him off work if there was a major problem. What else could they do anyway? He was in the system already. Hawe wasn't.

pilly · 15-05-2017 02:11PM

volchitsa wrote: »

But you're assuming that the previous major episode would have gone unnoticed by all, had he not been a pilot. I don't think that's the case - do you have any evidence that nobody else noticed the first episode?

Whereas for Alan Hawe there is nothing, no previous consultation related to mental health, not even for any possibly psychosomatic problem like Lubitz' eyesight issue. No medication ever, nothing.

In fact for Lubitz we don't actually know whether his coworkers and family had noticed any deterioration in his mental state before the crash itself - it's quite possible that they did, but that they trusted the medical system in place to put him off work if there was a major problem. What else could they do anyway? He was in the system already. Hawe wasn't.

You've put it better than I could.

No-one has a major depressive episode without someone noticing so there were signs there with the pilot. None with Hawe.

It's extremely rare that someone has a psychotic break without some prior contact with psychiatric services. The exception to this is usually teenagers because it has been known to happen in adolescence.

Cianmcliam · 15-05-2017 03:33PM

volchitsa wrote: »

But you're assuming that the previous major episode would have gone unnoticed by all, had he not been a pilot. I don't think that's the case - do you have any evidence that nobody else noticed the first episode?

I'm not assuming that, I'm saying even if the first episode had not happened or been treated, he was able to conceal his depression, anxiety, insomnia and lapse into psychotic symptoms from everyone except the doctors he consulted about his vision problems. If he had no vision problems then he may not have visited any doctors at all and no one would have been aware of his rapidly deteriorating mental condition. His own father said he did not believe he was depressed or experiencing any psychiatric symptoms before the crash, in direct contrast to the doctors who examined him.

Whereas for Alan Hawe there is nothing, no previous consultation related to mental health, not even for any possibly psychosomatic problem like Lubitz' eyesight issue. No medication ever, nothing.

Has his medical history been released? I wasn't aware it had.
Men are notoriously bad at seeking help for mental conditions. I think the rate is something like 70% females to 30% males seek psychiatric treatment. So Hawe would have been an exception if he had consulted anyone about his mental health if it started to deteriorate rapidly.

In fact for Lubitz we don't actually know whether his coworkers and family had noticed any deterioration in his mental state before the crash itself - it's quite possible that they did, but that they trusted the medical system in place to put him off work if there was a major problem. What else could they do anyway? He was in the system already. Hawe wasn't.

The BEA report into the crash is quite specific about this:
"None of the pilots or instructors interviewed during the investigation who flew with him in the months preceding the accident indicated any concern about his attitude or behaviour during flights."

Lubitz wasn't 'in the system', in fact it seems he deliberately consulted a number of different doctors over a short period of time to leave less of a trail or cause significant alarm. The company doctors had never signed him off sick or made any changes to his medical certification. His co-workers never noticed anything off about him as he slipped into a suicidal psychotic episode. The only reason Lubitz consulted anyone was because he feared he may be going blind. If he had not had these symptoms with his vision the crash would have come completely out of the blue.

volchitsa · 15-05-2017 07:39PM

Cianmcliam wrote: »

I'm not assuming that, I'm saying even if the first episode had not happened or been treated, he was able to conceal his depression, anxiety, insomnia and lapse into psychotic symptoms from everyone except the doctors he consulted about his vision problems. If he had no vision problems then he may not have visited any doctors at all and no one would have been aware of his rapidly deteriorating mental condition. His own father said he did not believe he was depressed or experiencing any psychiatric symptoms before the crash, in direct contrast to the doctors who examined him.

His parents, and his father in particular, have been accused by the victims' families of bad faith and disrespect. Even if that is untrue, he may not be entirely objective.

Has his medical history been released? I wasn't aware it had.

Not in detail, as you are well aware, but it was confirmed in the days and weeks after the killings that he had never consulted for mental health and that he'd never been prescribed any such medication. Contrary to the Irish woman in England, who killed her child shortly after that, where it was made known very quickly that prescription antidepressants had been found at the house.

Men are notoriously bad at seeking help for mental conditions. I think the rate is something like 70% females to 30% males seek psychiatric treatment. So Hawe would have been an exception if he had consulted anyone about his mental health if it started to deteriorate rapidly.

It didn't, because someone who has a genuine psychotic breakdown doesn't write letters that are coherent, nor do they plan something as methodically as he did.

I've had personal experience (not me, but someone in my immediate family) of someone who was having hallucinations, and what they were writing (notes and letters) was at least as obviously crazy as what they were saying. More so perhaps.

The BEA report into the crash is quite specific about this:
"None of the pilots or instructors interviewed during the investigation who flew with him in the months preceding the accident indicated any concern about his attitude or behaviour during flights."

Well, no, but perhaps with hindsight they might have. And TBH that sentence sounds like the employer - and possibly the workmates - going into arse-covering mode.

Lubitz wasn't 'in the system', in fact it seems he deliberately consulted a number of different doctors over a short period of time to leave less of a trail or cause significant alarm. The company doctors had never signed him off sick or made any changes to his medical certification. His co-workers never noticed anything off about him as he slipped into a suicidal psychotic episode. The only reason Lubitz consulted anyone was because he feared he may be going blind. If he had not had these symptoms with his vision the crash would have come completely out of the blue.

What I meant was that his workmates would have assumed that he was, they wouldn't have supposed that it was up to them to "denounce" his odd behaviour to the medical service because he, like them, was subject to regular check ups.

One doesn't immediately think that someone who's behaving a bit oddly is suddenly going to murder a bunch of people, after all.

And what you're ignoring about the vision, is that it was psychosomatic, IOW a symptom of his mental state. According to his medical notes (and again, no, I haven't read them but I'm going by what was reported after) it was felt to be the likeliest explanation.

So it's just not true that he didn't have any symptoms, he had both a history of mental illness and symptoms which suggested a deterioration in his mental state.

Whereas Hawe has nothing, not even in hindsight. That's very different from Lubitz.

pilly · 15-05-2017 08:13PM

Cianmcliam wrote:

Has his medical history been released? I wasn't aware it had. Men are notoriously bad at seeking help for mental conditions. I think the rate is something like 70% females to 30% males seek psychiatric treatment. So Hawe would have been an exception if he had consulted anyone about his mental health if it started to deteriorate rapidly.

Those figures are rubbish. Take it from someone who knows.

volchitsa · 01-06-2017 09:08AM

Hesitating to push this up top again, but this case really made me think of the Hawe murders:

"Our father was a terrorist living within our own home" says son. Dad killed wife and daughter in murder-suicide

Same shock and disbelief from those around them ("they were always a happy couple together") whereas the son, who survived, had a very different story to tell, talking about decades of abuse, as well as the father planning for weeks to kill them all. He also left a letter - about revenge. We don't know what was in Hawe's letter do we?

I feel very strongly that if any of the Hawe children had survived, there'd have been no "Poor man, just snapped" in the media, and the "happy family" narrative wouldn't have made it past the first interviews with the survivors.

Neyite · 01-06-2017 09:47AM

That was an awful case.

The most dangerous time in an abusive relationship is when the victim(s) are planning their escape and after they have dared to leave the perpetrator.

volchitsa wrote: »

We don't know what was in Hawe's letter do we?

I'd say that the surviving family and those investigating do though so I'd be guided by their view of the man. And they say there was no 'snapping' or MH breakdown involved. Good enough for me.

wrote:

I feel very strongly that if any of the Hawe children had survived, there'd have been no "Poor man, just snapped" in the media, and the "happy family" narrative wouldn't have made it past the first interviews with the survivors.

Which is possibly why they all were killed. To help preserve his all-important social standing and reputation beyond his death.

irishproduce · 18-12-2017 02:35PM

The first details from the coronoers report are on RE today.
God, the mother and Garda testimony is very sad. It includes the note on back door. What a cúnt

Zubeneschamali · 18-12-2017 04:58PM

I never heard this before, from the grandmother when she saw a note saying call the guards in Hawe's writing:

"I told them I think Alan has done something terrible, that Alan had killed them all," Mrs Coll said.

Her first thought is that Hawe killed the whole family??

Annasopra · 18-12-2017 05:05PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I never heard this before, from the grandmother when she saw a note saying call the guards in Hawe's writing:

"I told them I think Alan has done something terrible, that Alan had killed them all," Mrs Coll said.

Her first thought is that Hawe killed the whole family??

When she saw the note saying dont enter until the guards come I think that is understandable

Shurimgreat · 18-12-2017 05:47PM

The guy by the sounds of it was a complete control freak who possibly felt he was losing control of his family and decided he couldn't cope with that.
There is little to mitigate his actions. He seems to have been cold and calculating over a long period and also planned the murders down to a tee.
Little more than a cowardly serial killer who murdered a defenceless woman and children.

Thankfully the narrative about him being a "good GAA and family man who must have flipped" was quickly rejected by the majority. It was nearly a case of people feeling sorry for the perpetrator in the beginning as often happens with these murder-suicides.

tayto lover · 18-12-2017 05:49PM

Cold, calculating and evil as i've said from the beginning.
Afraid of any damage to his huge ego.

eviltwin · 18-12-2017 05:58PM

I've just read the account on the Daily Mail website, it goes into more detail than any of the Irish reports. Needless to say it's awful, I had thought that he waited until the children were asleep and that they would have been unaware of what was happening but not so. I can't begin to imagine the terror the children in particular experienced.

Shurimgreat · 18-12-2017 06:12PM

eviltwin wrote: »

I've just read the account on the Daily Mail website, it goes into more detail than any of the Irish reports. Needless to say it's awful, I had thought that he waited until the children were asleep and that they would have been unaware of what was happening but not so. I can't begin to imagine the terror the children in particular experienced.

Totally agree. It seemed to be a case of imposing the most suffering possible on them. Whether this was out of character we will never know.
As someone said earlier, if even one survived, they might have told a tale that he was a bully or violent monster for years. By killing them all, he probably hoped to protect his good name even in death, one last way of controlling the narrative. Thankfully, mainly through the testimony of Clodagh's friends and family, that narrative was blown apart. This guy appears to have been obsessively controlling to the point that he chose when they lived or died.
There was I'd say many calculations used in the timing of the murders. He probably decided to do it while the children were still relatively small. If they were a bit more mature or stronger, they would have fought back. You'd wonder how long this was in the planning. There is no way it was a case of a guy suddenly flipping. No question he was a monster.

Lollipops23 · 18-12-2017 07:06PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

If they were a bit more mature or stronger, they would have fought back.

There was quite a lot of evidence at the time that the eldest boy fought like hell.
Every time I read about the sicko it boils my blood. How many women are living Clodagh’s nightmare right now?

jobbridge4life · 18-12-2017 07:08PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Thankfully, mainly through the testimony of Clodagh's friends and family, that narrative was blown apart. This guy appears to have been obsessively controlling to the point that he chose when they lived or died.

Is there any links to articles etc. where this is discussed. I've been reading about the case but just can't find anything where someone says something concrete.

Galwayguy35 · 18-12-2017 07:40PM

The coroner thinks he killed his wife and eldest son first because they might have been able to fight back.

It doesn't bear thinking about the terror they felt in those final moments.

tayto lover · 18-12-2017 07:46PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

The coroner thinks he killed his wife and eldest son first because they might have been able to fight back.

It doesn't bear thinking about the terror they felt in those final moments.

His wife and 2 sons had defensive injuries too. They fought back in their terror to try and prevent themselves and the younger children being killed by this violent and cowardly thug.

Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

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