freshpopcorn wrote: » If he just killed himself and planned it in great detail would people accept he had a mental health illness?
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » Ido you think mental illness is usually an excuse for behaviour?
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » Did anyone on this thread say it would cause his behaviour? .
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » If murder suicide isn't a bit of a mental health red flag, then I don't know what is.
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » There is no evidence that he dabbled in murder before this so it's fairly clear that to go from zero murderous experience to entire familial murder suicide, without any kind of psychotic break is highly unlikely.
El_Duderino 09 wrote: » I'd say it's hard to jump from A to B without other factors with the ability to cause a huge escalation in behaviour, such as a psychotic break.
Zubeneschamali wrote: » Hmm, let's take a look: So yes, someone has repeatedly said that mental illness would cause Hawe to kill his family: you.
Toots wrote: » Most likely to be buried elsewhere or cremated and have the ashes scattered or buried elsewhere. AFAIK it was the local priest who recommended the joint funeral and burial.
Cianmcliam wrote: » The pilot of the Germanwings flight ...not a single person he spent the days and minutes before the crash with guessed there was something hugely wrong with him for weeks beforehand.
Cianmcliam wrote: » The pilot of the Germanwings flight who flew the plane into the side of a mountain leading to the death of 149 other people appeared completely normal to everyone working with him. Not one person interviewed that worked with him knew or suspected that he had any mental health issues. Right up until the time the captain left the cockpit to use the toilet after which he proceeded to lock the cockpit door, dial in an altitude of 100 feet and then calmly waited until they all ploughed into a remote mountain. What the people around him didn't know is that he once had a major depressive disorder, had a no-suicide pact with his psychiatrist and was experiencing a serious relapse at the time of the crash. A week or so before the crash his GP referred him to a psychiatric hospital for suspected psychosis. Not a single person he spent the days and minutes before the crash with guessed there was something hugely wrong with him for weeks beforehand.
pilly wrote: » That case is a good example but there were definite signs there beforehand, maybe not to friends and colleagues but to doctors etc. There's never been any indication that Hawes even attended a doctor for mental health issues so totally different story. There have been plenty of cases in the past when in the lead up to an event like this the person was looking for help.
Cianmcliam wrote: » Andreas Lubitz had to get regular thorough medical assessments because of his job as a pilot. If he had not been a pilot he may never had gone to the doctor about mental health problems. We have absolutely no idea how many people are going through these kinds of mental breakdowns without ever consulting a doctor. The main reason he was visiting doctors before the crash was because he believed his eyesight was deteriorating yet no organic cause of this was found. He was flying airplanes alongside an experienced captain who had no idea he was going through a psychotic, suicidal episode but people here are saying how could Alan Hawe have written notes?
pilly wrote: » Hang on a second, you've said above that Lubitz went to a psychiatrist and previously had a major depressive episode? Now he only went to the doctor with his eyesight?
Zubeneschamali wrote: » El_Duderino 09 wrote: » Ido you think mental illness is usually an excuse for behaviour? Perhaps you have never seen a news story like this one:A man who suffers from paranoid schizophrenia who killed his parents with an axe has been found not guilty of murder by reason of insanity.Julian Cuddihy, 43, was charged with murdering 73-year-old Kathleen Cuddihy and 77-year-old James Cuddihy at their family home in Churchtown, Carndonagh, Co Donegal on 22 October 2014.After 40 minutes of deliberations the jury of seven men and five women came back with unanimous verdicts on both counts of not guilty by reason of insanity.Justice Margaret Heneghan committed Mr Cuddihy to the Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum in Dublin for assessment. This man was literally found not guilty of murder because of his mental illness.
Cianmcliam wrote: » During his training he had a major depressive episode and visited a psychiatrist for several months. After this, the psychiatrist certified that the illness had been successfully treated. He was given a medical cert to fly a few months after that on the provision that if he had a relapse the medical cert would become invalid. It was several years later that he experienced the relapse but, knowing that he would lose his job, he covered it up and pretended all was fine up until the day he caused the crash.
volchitsa wrote: » But you're assuming that the previous major episode would have gone unnoticed by all, had he not been a pilot. I don't think that's the case - do you have any evidence that nobody else noticed the first episode? Whereas for Alan Hawe there is nothing, no previous consultation related to mental health, not even for any possibly psychosomatic problem like Lubitz' eyesight issue. No medication ever, nothing. In fact for Lubitz we don't actually know whether his coworkers and family had noticed any deterioration in his mental state before the crash itself - it's quite possible that they did, but that they trusted the medical system in place to put him off work if there was a major problem. What else could they do anyway? He was in the system already. Hawe wasn't.
volchitsa wrote: » But you're assuming that the previous major episode would have gone unnoticed by all, had he not been a pilot. I don't think that's the case - do you have any evidence that nobody else noticed the first episode?
Whereas for Alan Hawe there is nothing, no previous consultation related to mental health, not even for any possibly psychosomatic problem like Lubitz' eyesight issue. No medication ever, nothing.
In fact for Lubitz we don't actually know whether his coworkers and family had noticed any deterioration in his mental state before the crash itself - it's quite possible that they did, but that they trusted the medical system in place to put him off work if there was a major problem. What else could they do anyway? He was in the system already. Hawe wasn't.
Cianmcliam wrote: » I'm not assuming that, I'm saying even if the first episode had not happened or been treated, he was able to conceal his depression, anxiety, insomnia and lapse into psychotic symptoms from everyone except the doctors he consulted about his vision problems. If he had no vision problems then he may not have visited any doctors at all and no one would have been aware of his rapidly deteriorating mental condition. His own father said he did not believe he was depressed or experiencing any psychiatric symptoms before the crash, in direct contrast to the doctors who examined him.
Has his medical history been released? I wasn't aware it had.
Men are notoriously bad at seeking help for mental conditions. I think the rate is something like 70% females to 30% males seek psychiatric treatment. So Hawe would have been an exception if he had consulted anyone about his mental health if it started to deteriorate rapidly.
The BEA report into the crash is quite specific about this: "None of the pilots or instructors interviewed during the investigation who flew with him in the months preceding the accident indicated any concern about his attitude or behaviour during flights."
Lubitz wasn't 'in the system', in fact it seems he deliberately consulted a number of different doctors over a short period of time to leave less of a trail or cause significant alarm. The company doctors had never signed him off sick or made any changes to his medical certification. His co-workers never noticed anything off about him as he slipped into a suicidal psychotic episode. The only reason Lubitz consulted anyone was because he feared he may be going blind. If he had not had these symptoms with his vision the crash would have come completely out of the blue.
Cianmcliam wrote: Has his medical history been released? I wasn't aware it had. Men are notoriously bad at seeking help for mental conditions. I think the rate is something like 70% females to 30% males seek psychiatric treatment. So Hawe would have been an exception if he had consulted anyone about his mental health if it started to deteriorate rapidly.
volchitsa wrote: » We don't know what was in Hawe's letter do we?
wrote: I feel very strongly that if any of the Hawe children had survived, there'd have been no "Poor man, just snapped" in the media, and the "happy family" narrative wouldn't have made it past the first interviews with the survivors.
Zubeneschamali wrote: » I never heard this before, from the grandmother when she saw a note saying call the guards in Hawe's writing: "I told them I think Alan has done something terrible, that Alan had killed them all," Mrs Coll said. Her first thought is that Hawe killed the whole family??
eviltwin wrote: » I've just read the account on the Daily Mail website, it goes into more detail than any of the Irish reports. Needless to say it's awful, I had thought that he waited until the children were asleep and that they would have been unaware of what was happening but not so. I can't begin to imagine the terror the children in particular experienced.
Shurimgreat wrote: » If they were a bit more mature or stronger, they would have fought back.
Shurimgreat wrote: » Thankfully, mainly through the testimony of Clodagh's friends and family, that narrative was blown apart. This guy appears to have been obsessively controlling to the point that he chose when they lived or died.
Galwayguy35 wrote: » The coroner thinks he killed his wife and eldest son first because they might have been able to fight back. It doesn't bear thinking about the terror they felt in those final moments.
