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Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

1…78101213…38

Comments

  • #272
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    livedadream wrote: »
    who said he was a psychopath?

    nesta99:
    Nesta99 wrote: »
    My own opinion is that this man was a psycopath

    Messengers is convinced he had depression. El Duderino thinks he "obviously" had a psychotic break.


  • #273
    livedadream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭livedadream


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    livedadream wrote: »
    who said he was a psychopath?

    nesta99:
    Nesta99 wrote: »
    My own opinion is that this man was a psycopath

    Messengers is convinced he had depression. El Duderino thinks he "obviously" had a psychotic break.
    to be honest, people can be convinced all they like, personally I thought he was abusing her physically and mentally, there were some comments passed at the time about all the mass going etc as well in regards to the kids. Turns out according to her sister- who has mentioned domestic violence before that i was wrong, shes now changed her mind or was too grief stricken to correct an erroneous comment. It happens. Let people think what they like. People get the wrong info and come to the wrong conclusion or people have differing experiences and come to different conclusions., its not the end of the wrong, at the end of the day the only people who know what happened in that house cant tell us.
    Their postmortems and the letters left behind will give us clues and facts but no one will be able to piece together everything.


  • #274
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 7,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    livedadream wrote: »
    to be honest, people can be convinced all they like, personally I thought he was abusing her physically and mentally, there were some comments passed at the time about all the mass going etc as well in regards to the kids. Turns out according to her sister- who has mentioned domestic violence before that i was wrong, shes now changed her mind or was too grief stricken to correct an erroneous comment. It happens. Let people think what they like. People get the wrong info and come to the wrong conclusion or people have differing experiences and come to different conclusions., its not the end of the wrong, at the end of the day the only people who know what happened in that house cant tell us.
    Their postmortems and the letters left behind will give us clues and facts but no one will be able to piece together everything.

    You can't just go around making statements about people, their mental state or their behaviour when you don't know. That is the point others are trying to make. You have no knowledge of Alan Hawe or his mental state or his behaviour towards his family. So you can't say whether he was if unsound mind or mentally ill. You have no access to his medical records or any other personal information about him.

    What he did was horrendous. It's as horrendous as every other murder suicide that has happened in this country. But people are plying the thread with their opinion and trying to state it as fact. I have often wondered if Boards would be exposed legally because of what's being said.


  • #275
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,745 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    IMO if he had an undiagnosed mental illness it's more likely to have been narcissistic personality disorder or psychopathy than depression.


  • #276
    livedadream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭livedadream


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    livedadream wrote: »
    to be honest, people can be convinced all they like, personally I thought he was abusing her physically and mentally, there were some comments passed at the time about all the mass going etc as well in regards to the kids. Turns out according to her sister- who has mentioned domestic violence before that i was wrong, shes now changed her mind or was too grief stricken to correct an erroneous comment. It happens. Let people think what they like. People get the wrong info and come to the wrong conclusion or people have differing experiences and come to different conclusions., its not the end of the wrong, at the end of the day the only people who know what happened in that house cant tell us.
    Their postmortems and the letters left behind will give us clues and facts but no one will be able to piece together everything.

    You can't just go around making statements about people, their mental state or their behaviour when you don't know.  That is the point others are trying to make.  You have no knowledge of Alan Hawe or his mental state or his behaviour towards his family.  So you can't say whether he was if unsound mind or mentally ill.  You have no access to his medical records or any other personal information about him.

    What he did was horrendous.  It's as horrendous as every other murder suicide that has happened in this country.  But people are plying the thread with their opinion and trying to state it as fact.  I have often wondered if Boards would be exposed legally because of what's being said.
    did you even read my post?, maybe try reading what i said before attacking it:  i said
    I cant comment on which the murderer in this case was as I haven't read or seen any of the letters he left, it will however be covered by the inquest.

    as an aside you cant defame a dead person so boards are covered that way. but yes what some people have said is terrible, but everyone is entitled to an opinion weather you feel thats right or wrong


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  • #277
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    You can't just go around making statements about people, their mental state or their behaviour when you don't know. That is the point others are trying to make. You have no knowledge of Alan Hawe or his mental state or his behaviour towards his family. So you can't say whether he was if unsound mind or mentally ill. You have no access to his medical records or any other personal information about him.

    What he did was horrendous. It's as horrendous as every other murder suicide that has happened in this country. But people are plying the thread with their opinion and trying to state it as fact. I have often wondered if Boards would be exposed legally because of what's being said.

    Some people have expressed things as if they were facts but the poster you quoted hasn't, they specifically started the sentence with "I thought" and people are still entitled to their thoughts and opinions.


  • #278
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 7,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    livedadream wrote: »
    did you even read my post?, maybe try reading what i said before attacking it:  i said


    as an aside you cant defame a dead person so boards are covered that way. but yes what some people have said is terrible, but everyone is entitled to an opinion weather you feel thats right or wrong

    You posted earlier in the thread

    To be fair i think it was pretty clearly outlined at the time that it wasnt mental health issues that he had, it was that he was a wife beater who was about to be outted so to prevent the fall from grace killed him family. its a bit unfair on people who have actual health health issues to lump this guy in with them.

    There was no evidence of this anywhere.

    And I didn't attack your post princess. I commented on it. Major difference.


  • #279
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 7,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    pilly wrote: »
    Some people have expressed things as if they were facts but the poster you quoted hasn't, they specifically started the sentence with "I thought" and people are still entitled to their thoughts and opinions.

    I didn't ever say no one was entitled to express a thought. And I'm pretty sure people can't go around saying stuff about people when they don't know whether it's true.

    Again, not taking away from the horrendous murders, I just don't know where people are getting their information from.


  • #280
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    I didn't ever say no one was entitled to express a thought. And I'm pretty sure people can't go around saying stuff about people when they don't know whether it's true.

    Again, not taking away from the horrendous murders, I just don't know where people are getting their information from.

    I agree with you to an extent. I didn't realise that said poster had earlier said he was a wife beater.

    People can say what they suspect but can't state it as fact.


  • #281
    livedadream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭livedadream


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    livedadream wrote: »
    did you even read my post?, maybe try reading what i said before attacking it:  i said


    as an aside you cant defame a dead person so boards are covered that way. but yes what some people have said is terrible, but everyone is entitled to an opinion weather you feel thats right or wrong

    You posted earlier in the thread

    To be fair i think it was pretty clearly outlined at the time that it wasnt mental health issues that he had,  it was that he was a wife beater who was about to be outted so to prevent the fall from grace killed him family. its a bit unfair on people who have actual health health issues to lump this guy in with them.

    There was no evidence of this anywhere.  

    And I didn't attack your post princess.   I commented on it.  Major difference.
    I said I was wrong in my post about the physical abuse and noted where the (incorrect) assumption (her sister talking openly in an interview about the secret signs of domestic violence and how her sister never say it coming).
    I also said I thought, not fact. get a grip mate, you clearly attacked my post for no reason. whats hilarious is we actually agree with each other, your just to wound up to see it.

    and it wasnt clearly outlined by anyone that it wasnt about mental health issues at the time.
    no one knows if he had mental health issues, or if he just lost it or if he just thought do you know what im going to kill my family its for the best in a totally rational moment. we can all have an opinion on it but no one knows.
    and ive said REPEATEDLY in this thread about how wrong associating murder with mental health is.
    pick and chose my words all you like but its you that looks like a fool not me.


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  • #282
    livedadream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭livedadream


    pilly wrote: »
    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    You can't just go around making statements about people, their mental state or their behaviour when you don't know.  That is the point others are trying to make.  You have no knowledge of Alan Hawe or his mental state or his behaviour towards his family.  So you can't say whether he was if unsound mind or mentally ill.  You have no access to his medical records or any other personal information about him.

    What he did was horrendous.  It's as horrendous as every other murder suicide that has happened in this country.  But people are plying the thread with their opinion and trying to state it as fact.  I have often wondered if Boards would be exposed legally because of what's being said.

    Some people have expressed things as if they were facts but the poster you quoted hasn't, they specifically started the sentence with "I thought" and people are still entitled to their thoughts and opinions.
    thanks.


  • #283
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    I just don't know where people are getting their information from.

    The back of their trousers.


  • #284
    livedadream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭livedadream


    pilly wrote: »
    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    I didn't ever say no one was entitled to express a thought.  And I'm pretty sure people can't go around saying stuff about people when they don't know whether it's true.  

    Again, not taking away from the horrendous murders, I just don't know where people are getting their information from.

    I agree with you to an extent. I didn't realise that said poster had earlier said he was a wife beater.

    People can say what they suspect but can't state it as fact.
    i didnt state it as fact and if you read the post i say the sister said this this is why i think this...
    it all well and good jumping on a bandwagon but read the post before you do.


  • #285
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 7,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    livedadream wrote: »
    I said I was wrong in my post about the physical abuse and noted where the (incorrect) assumption (her sister talking openly in an interview about the secret signs of domestic violence and how her sister never say it coming).
    I also said I thought, not fact. get a grip mate, you clearly attacked my post for no reason. whats hilarious is we actually agree with each other, your just to wound up to see it.

    and it wasnt clearly outlined by anyone that it wasnt about mental health issues at the time.
    no one knows if he had mental health issues, or if he just lost it or if he just thought do you know what im going to kill my family its for the best in a totally rational moment. we can all have an opinion on it but no one knows.
    and ive said REPEATEDLY in this thread about how wrong associating murder with mental health is.
    pick and chose my words all you like but its you that looks like a fool not me.

    Where are you getting the impression I'm wound up? And why would it matter to you whether I am or not. I replied to your comment and youre trying to make it a personal thing about you. Relax. I did not attack your post. I commented on it.

    Why would you want anyone to look like a fool? It's a tragic case with the deaths of an innocent woman and her kids.

    And you cannot say il what it is right or wrong to link Alan Hawe's actions to, because you don't know.


  • #286
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 7,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    livedadream wrote: »
    i didnt state it as fact and if you read the post i say the sister said this this is why i think this...
    it all well and good jumping on a bandwagon but read the post before you do.

    :pac: :pac: :pac:


  • #287
    livedadream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭livedadream


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    livedadream wrote: »
    I said I was wrong in my post about the physical abuse and noted where the (incorrect) assumption (her sister talking openly in an interview about the secret signs of domestic violence and how her sister never say it coming).
    I also said I thought, not fact. get a grip mate, you clearly attacked my post for no reason. whats hilarious is we actually agree with each other, your just to wound up to see it.

    and it wasnt clearly outlined by anyone that it wasnt about mental health issues at the time.
    no one knows if he had mental health issues, or if he just lost it or if he just thought do you know what im going to kill my family its for the best in a totally rational moment. we can all have an opinion on it but no one knows.
    and ive said REPEATEDLY in this thread about how wrong associating murder with mental health is.
    pick and chose my words all you like but its you that looks like a fool not me.

    Where are you getting the impression I'm wound up?  And why would it matter to you whether I am or not.  I replied to your comment and youre trying to make it a personal thing about you.  Relax.  I did not attack your post.  I commented on it.

    Why would you want anyone to look like a fool?  It's a tragic case with the deaths of an innocent woman and her kids.

    And you cannot say il what it is right or wrong to link Alan Hawe's actions to, because you don't know.
    calling me princess what probably what did it...


  • #288
    Boom_Bap
    Moderators, Music Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,740 Mod ✭✭✭✭Boom_Bap


    MOD

    Can you please stop aiming comments at each other in this thread place and stick to the topic.

    Cheers.


  • #289
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,276 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    livedadream wrote: »
    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    livedadream wrote: »
    theres a difference between being mentally ill and of sound mind...

    I get that but you're drawing an arbitrary distinction. If a psychopath is 'wired wrong' so can't be classified as mentally ill; would you also say someone whose hard wired for depression is simply 'wired wrong' and can't be classed as having Mental illness?  Can something only be classed as mental illness if it's temporary?

    who said he was a psychopath? depression is a chemical issue its not a wiring issue.
    actual psychopaths are pretty rare: characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, egotistical traits.
    psychopathy has neurological roots so most professionals* do consider it a mental illness the same as ED's or anxiety or bipolar or schizophrenia. *(i personally know someone in the industry who considers psychopathy a genetic condition nature v nurture also plays a huge part and is currently researching is.)

    and yes there are such things as temporary mental illnesses.
    i think people are confusing mental illlnesses like bipolar etc with a Psychosis, Psychosis isnt a permanent state while it can mean there is an underlying issue it doesnt mean you are a psychopath.
    also please bear in mind that mental illness is not treated by many modern MD's as either a treatable chronic illness or for some as a temporary issue- anxiety issues, same as a broken leg, treatment time, you might never run on the leg the same way but you can be fixed.

    I used the psychopath example as a poster above said he was a psychopath which couldn't be a mental illness because a psychopath is 'wired wrong'. As for depression, it can be chemical and it can have physical pathology such as brain damage. I as asking about that distinction because of the number of posters who described him as a psychopath but also said he want mentally ill.

    A lot of posters are putting the cart before the horse, insisting he couldn't be mentally ill. That seems to be very important for some people and that's interesting in and of itself.

    There's some evidence of domestic abuse before the killing but it's not great evidence and it's disputed within the family. Beyond that you have a man who was generally well regarded in the community (that's not to say he was a great guy but it's the evidence we have). Then he committed a horrific act which is out of keeping with his previous behaviour accompanied by a note with delusional reasoning. It's hard to explain that without a psychotic break.


  • #290
    livedadream
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭livedadream


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    livedadream wrote: »
    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    livedadream wrote: »
    theres a difference between being mentally ill and of sound mind...

    I get that but you're drawing an arbitrary distinction. If a psychopath is 'wired wrong' so can't be classified as mentally ill; would you also say someone whose hard wired for depression is simply 'wired wrong' and can't be classed as having Mental illness?  Can something only be classed as mental illness if it's temporary?

    who said he was a psychopath? depression is a chemical issue its not a wiring issue.
    actual psychopaths are pretty rare: characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, egotistical traits.
    psychopathy has neurological roots so most professionals* do consider it a mental illness the same as ED's or anxiety or bipolar or schizophrenia. *(i personally know someone in the industry who considers psychopathy a genetic condition nature v nurture also plays a huge part and is currently researching is.)

    and yes there are such things as temporary mental illnesses.
    i think people are confusing mental illlnesses like bipolar etc with a Psychosis, Psychosis isnt a permanent state while it can mean there is an underlying issue it doesnt mean you are a psychopath.
    also please bear in mind that mental illness is not treated by many modern MD's as either a treatable chronic illness or for some as a temporary issue- anxiety issues, same as a broken leg, treatment time, you might never run on the leg the same way but you can be fixed.

    I used the psychopath example as a poster above said he was a psychopath which couldn't be a mental illness because a psychopath is 'wired wrong'. As for depression, it can be chemical and it can have physical pathology such as brain damage. I as asking about that distinction because of the number of posters who described him as a psychopath but also said he want mentally ill.

    A lot of posters  are putting the cart before the horse, insisting he couldn't be mentally ill. That seems to be very important for some people and that's interesting in and of itself.

    There's some evidence of domestic abuse before the killing but it's not great evidence and it's disputed within the family. Beyond that you have a man who was generally well regarded in the community (that's not to say he was a great guy but it's the evidence we have). Then he committed a horrific act which is out of keeping with his previous behaviour accompanied by a note with delusional reasoning. It's hard to explain that without a psychotic break.
    I agree, but its hard to know, its one of those things, i do distinguish between mental illness and a psychotic break but many people including professionals dont, and I honestly dont know what happened in that house bar the facts and really when it comes down to it is all we know is, five people died in that house, one by suicide.
    i can see where people are eager to distinguish ithe act of murder from mental illness though. It gets such bad press and is already such a sensitive subject in Ireland, its better or err on the side of caution i reckon.


  • #291
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    just reminds me what a sad tragic incident this was
    and what suffering the family were going through before the murders


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  • #292
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    A lot of posters are putting the cart before the horse, insisting he couldn't be mentally ill.

    I don't believe anyone has said he couldn't be mentally ill.

    All I am saying is that there is no evidence that he was mentally ill, and that saying he must have been mentally ill because he murdered his children is a horrible slur on people who actually are mentally ill.

    If some actual evidence comes out showing that he had a psychotic break - like his notes turn out to say he thought his family had been replaced by demons or the pathologist reports a huge brain tumour or something, I will be quite relieved.

    It is shocking to think that a man who is seen as a pillar of the local community can turn out to be capable of planning and carrying out the brutal murders of his wife and children because he sees no way out, decides to kill himself, and thinks his family are better off murdered than living without him.

    Because right now, in the absence of new evidence, that's how it looks. There is no sign that he was depressed or psychotic, and if he was a psychopath, he concealed it very well for many years.


  • #293
    Bambi985
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭Bambi985


    I think we tell ourselves he is some sort of anomaly, a psychopath or just the personification of evil as a means of comforting ourselves, safe in the knowledge that someone like Alan Hawe couldn't be that ordinary dad next door that everyone respects and that coaches the local GAA team and that goes to mass every Sunday.

    I'm not sure if it's an Irish phenomenon, probably a human thing really, but I've seen this before with murder suicides and even with the more common crisis of suicide in Ireland. This sort of "where his head was at we'll never understand" etc etc. Yet it's happening at an alarming rate.

    Without any comment or speculation whatsoever on Hawe's state of mind or motives as I have absolutely no idea and nor do any of us, I think it's time the authorities and our politicians and our media look this problem in the eye - why is it happening with such frequency in Ireland? Why have their been 27 cases in the last 17 years? Why does any Garda investigation that does occur end at the inquest? What aren't we getting here, that prevents this crime from being as rare as it should be? And why is there absolutely no significant research done on this events by the state, when they are clearing not one-off events that happen once every 20 years?


  • #294
    .........
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭.........


    People who are mentally ill commit crimes all the time, hence hospital prisons for the criminally insane.

    People who are not mentally ill commit crimes all the time, hence prisons.

    A court decides based on professional medical evidence who's criminally mentally ill and who's not. No one else.

    Who cares if Hawe was mentally ill or not, without the proper medical evidence and professional opinion, the speculation is pointless.

    It doesn't matter if he was mentally ill or not, nothing excuses what he did.


  • #295
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,276 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    ......... wrote:
    It doesn't matter if he was mentally ill or not, nothing excuses what he did.

    I agree with that but this last line keeps coming up completely unprompted. Why would anyone even think that mental illness would excuse it?

    Serious question to the posters who keep bringing up the notion of mental illness being an excuse; do you think mental illness is usually an excuse for behaviour? That's the only thing that explains why posters keep bringing up the word 'excuse' when nobody who suggested mental health even mentioned or suggested excusing anything.


  • #296
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,287 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    There is no excuse for what Hawe did. Absolutely none.


  • #297
    .........
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭.........


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    I agree with that but this last line keeps coming up completely unprompted.

    It isn't "unprompted". It's in response to some people claiming it excuses it, or others complaining they don't want him labelled mentally ill in case it gives mentally ill people 'a bad name', or those determined to stereotype and pigeon hole Hawe for their own political points.

    So, it's pretty simple, in case anyone's confused, mentally ill, sane or not at the time or not, nothing excuses his actions.

    Whatever else Hawe happened to be or not to be, what he did only gives Hawe a bad name, no one else.


  • #298
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,276 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    ......... wrote:
    It isn't unprompted, it's in response to some people claiming it excuses it, or others people complaining they don't want him labelled mentally ill in case it gives mentally ill people 'a bad name'. Neither of which is correct.

    I don't think anyone said it did. Maybe you can point to an example but I think if you look for one, to find that what happened was this. Posters mention mental health and say nothing about excusing anything. Lots of posters respond with posts to the effect that 'that's ridiculous, stop
    trying to excuse his actions, how can you excuse his actions, it can't be mental health as there is no excuse, etc'.
    ......... wrote:
    So, it's pretty simple, in case anyone's confused, mentally ill, sane or not at the time or not, nothing excuses his actions.
    Nobody even suggested it did. You're again answering the question that absolutely nobody has asked. This idea of mental health being an excuse has come up completely unprompted again.

    If someone has said mental health would excuse his behaviour, then please do quote it. It would put my mind at ease as to why it keeps being brought up.


  • #299
    .........
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭.........


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    I don't think anyone said it did. Maybe you can point to an example but I think if you look for one, to find that what happened was this. Posters mention mental health and say nothing about excusing anything. Lots of posters respond with posts to the effect that 'that's ridiculous, stop
    trying to excuse his actions, how can you excuse his actions, it can't be mental health as there is no excuse, etc'.


    Nobody even suggested it did. You're again answering the question that absolutely nobody has asked. This idea of mental health being an excuse has come up completely unprompted again.

    If someone has said mental health would excuse his behaviour, then please do quote it. It would put my mind at ease as to why it keeps being brought up.

    You must be reading different social media and media. Lots of the coverage and commentary is obsessed if he was sane or not, or showed signs of mental illness or not and what factor it played. I don't care if he was or not.


  • #300
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,276 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    ......... wrote:
    You must be reading different social media and media. Lots of the coverage and commentary is obsessed if he was sane or not, or showed signs of mental illness or not and what factor it played. I don't care if he was or not.

    Did anyone on this thread say it would cause his behaviour? You said they did so I'm seriously asking if you read any posts that did make that claim.


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  • #301
    .........
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭.........


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Did anyone on this thread say it would cause his behaviour? You said they did so I'm seriously asking if you read any posts that did make that claim.

    I'm not reading 20 pages to find out, you're the one obsessed by it not me.

    Tell us why so many people think his mental health at the time is important ?
    and why is there so much discussion about it ? Or better still try asking those that care what his mental health was at the time and why ? Because I don't care what it was, so obsess somewhere else.

    I'll make whatever statement I like without being 'asked a question' or obtaining your special permission to make it.

    Here it is again.
    NOTHING EXCUSES WHAT HE DID.


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