The Amazing 12 - My experience

Dtp1979 · 08-05-2017 07:07PM

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

If you mean practically, I trained my balls off, only ate what I was told and got.plenty of rest. If you mean scientifically, I really don't know I'm afraid.I've never been a believer in the "you can't build muscle while on a deficit" school of thought (I think people saying this are often conflating muscle with mass) but, although I've plenty of practical lifting experience, my actual knowledge of the science behind all of it isn't great (which is why this kind of training suits me).

I'm not doubting the effort you put on for a second. I'm just confused by muscle gain and calorie intake.

Nervous Wreck · 08-05-2017 07:30PM

Dtp1979 wrote: »

I'm not doubting the effort you put on for a second. I'm just confused by muscle gain and calorie intake.

No, I didn't take it that way at all, I just don't fully understand the science of it to give a proper answer! I don't think muscle gain is dependant on a calorie surplus (at least to the extent that people often believe) if you're not building a lot of mass... but I dunno... That's my limited experience...!

eire1 · 08-05-2017 07:31PM

I heard today that you've to sign a contract so you don't give away the program?

Dtp1979 · 08-05-2017 07:40PM

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

No, I didn't take it that way at all, I just don't fully understand the science of it to give a proper answer! I don't think muscle gain is dependant on a calorie surplus (at least to the extent that people often believe) if you're not building a lot of mass... but I dunno... That's my limited experience...!

It'd be interesting to find out cause I always believed muscle gain wasn't possible on a deficit. Unless newbie gains are involved, but you were well past that stage

Alf Veedersane · 08-05-2017 07:51PM

eire1 wrote: »

I heard today that you've to sign a contract so you don't give away the program?

I havw no idea but I'd pretty much have expected that to be the case and it's fair enough.

Nervous Wreck · 08-05-2017 07:56PM

eire1 wrote: »

I heard today that you've to sign a contract so you don't give away the program?

I didn't sign anything except an insurance waiver. I wouldn't give it away out of principle though.

Dtp1979 wrote: »

It'd be interesting to find out cause I always believed muscle gain wasn't possible on a deficit. Unless newbie gains are involved, but you were well past that stage

I did similar in Revfit a few years ago. I'd believed same until then too!

Alf Veedersane · 08-05-2017 07:59PM

I remember Eric Helms discussing it on Omar Isuf's channel a few months back. IIRC part of it was due to timing of caloric intake, ie being in short-lived surpus/deficit across the course of a day - where your daily intake might be a deficit - when you consider intake on a microscale.

I could be disremembering that though.

PowerToWait · 08-05-2017 10:02PM

The best way to look like you gained a load of muscle is to lose a pile of fat.

I think it's pretty clear that you don't build muscle in a deficit. I mean even with a decent surplus how much would you build in 12 weeks? I think if you did 3 kg max you'd be doing really well.

Zillah · 09-05-2017 11:49AM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

being in short-lived surpus/deficit across the course of a day - where your daily intake might be a deficit - when you consider intake on a microscale.

I was thinking about this myself recently. If I generate the most muscle gains during the first X hours after a workout (whatever X is, I dunno, 6 hours? 10 hours? 12?), then it seems reasonable to eat a surplus during X, and then remain in deficit until the next workout. If it's carefully timed it seems reasonable that you could effectively be doing the normal bulk/cut cycle, just on an extremely short cycle.

My gut reaction was to say that the body will refuse to shift gear so abruptly and instead will average it all out.

Just musing, though; I don't really know.

Zillah · 09-05-2017 11:54AM

PowerToWait wrote: »

The best way to look like you gained a load of muscle is to lose a pile of fat.

Yeah, it's obvious from the photos that Nervous Wreck was carrying a lot of extra weight in the 'before'. He also said he had been lifting for a few years already, so there could (should) have been a lot of muscle hiding beneath the bodyfat. It's hard to guess how much was just hiding and how much was actually gained.

This image always stuck in my memory:

Powerlifters look a hell of a lot stronger when they cut - they just rarely cut because they don't care about appearance.

Mellor · 09-05-2017 12:16PM

Zillah wrote: »

Powerlifters look a hell of a lot stronger when they cut - they just rarely cut because they don't care about appearance.

And also because it impedes proformance.

But mostly because they don't care and like cake.

Alf Veedersane · 09-05-2017 06:02PM

Zillah wrote: »

I was thinking about this myself recently. If I generate the most muscle gains during the first X hours after a workout (whatever X is, I dunno, 6 hours? 10 hours? 12?), then it seems reasonable to eat a surplus during X, and then remain in deficit until the next workout. If it's carefully timed it seems reasonable that you could effectively be doing the normal bulk/cut cycle, just on an extremely short cycle.

My gut reaction was to say that the body will refuse to shift gear so abruptly and instead will average it all out.

Just musing, though; I don't really know.

Here's Eric Helms' take on it:

MysticMonk · 09-05-2017 08:54PM

I reckon most people trainingand dieting their arse off who were in reasonable shape to begin with could cut themselves in 12 weeks to the extent that the OP did.
Obviously theres a bit of photographic trickery in the second picture so it makes it even less worth 1500 quid to my mind.

Unless you were given some very expensive and prohormonal supplements I can't imagine why it costs so much.

Alf Veedersane · 09-05-2017 09:01PM

MysticMonk wrote: »

I reckon most people trainingand dieting their arse off who were in reasonable shape to begin with could cut themselves in 12 weeks to the extent that the OP did.

Then why don't they?

Everything I covered in the 4 years I studied physics is also freely available online. I could have obtained my degree without ever setting foot in a lecture hall, apparently.

The thing is that there isn't really any magic involved only an investment, mentally and with money that helps to motivate someone to train their ass off 5 days a week and stick to rigid nutrition plan.

You could get yourself there without any outlay but that begs the question why so many people who would like to get in that shape don't.

MysticMonk · 09-05-2017 09:10PM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Then why don't they?

Everything I covered in the 4 years I studied physics is also freely available online. I could have obtained my degree without ever setting foot in a lecture hall, apparently.

The thing is that there isn't really any magic involved only an investment, mentally and with money that helps to motivate someone to train their ass off 5 days a week and stick to rigid nutrition plan.

You could get yourself there without any outlay but that begs the question why so many people who would like to get in that shape don't.

Probably because people only have so many hours in the day. If you're working or studying it's not always practical to hit the gym 7 days a week and eat perfectly.
If you pay for something, anything.. you're probably going to make full use of it and because it's only 12 weeks it's doable.
Try that the year round and you'd probably damage your health quite a bit.

As for why don't people get in shape?
I've just given one excuse and most people have plenty more.

Alf Veedersane · 09-05-2017 09:19PM

MysticMonk wrote: »

Probably because people only have so many hours in the day. If you're working or studying it's not always practical to hit the gym 7 days a week and eat perfectly.
If you pay for something, anything.. you're probably going to make full use of it and because it's only 12 weeks it's doable.
Try that the year round and you'd probably damage your health quite a bit.

As for why don't people get in shape?
I've just given one excuse and most people have plenty more.

OP has a job.

People have plenty of excuses.

Thing is, the OP wanted to do it, invested money, time and a lot of effort and got the results.

When you break it down to a per-session cost it's not expensive.

It always comes back to this: "price is what you pay, value is what you get".

MysticMonk · 09-05-2017 09:27PM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

OP has a job.

People have plenty of excuses.

Thing is, the OP wanted to do it, invested money, time and a lot of effort and got the results.

When you break it down to a per-session cost it's not expensive.

It always comes back to this: "price is what you pay, value is what you get".

1500 quid for three months is pretty damned expensive.

It seems almost Tony Quinnish

Alf Veedersane · 09-05-2017 09:29PM

MysticMonk wrote: »

1500 quid for three months is pretty damned expensive.

It seems almost Tony Quinnish

The Tony Quinn comparison is unfair.

It's 60 sessions.

And you could spend a lot more on a holiday drinking the face off yourself for a week or two.

Comes down to the value someone places in what they want out of 12 weeks of hard graft.

MysticMonk · 09-05-2017 09:35PM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

The Tony Quinn comparison is unfair.

It's 60 sessions.

And you could spend a lot more on a holiday drinking the face off yourself for a week or two.

Comes down to the value someone places in what they want out of 12 weeks of hard graft.

Can't argue with that but I'm saying people don't *need* to spend that amount of money if they have the willpower.
The main proplem is finding time and motivation.

Alf Veedersane · 09-05-2017 09:47PM

MysticMonk wrote: »

Can't argue with that but I'm saying people don't *need* to spend that amount of money if they have the willpower.
The main proplem is finding time and motivation.

Time and motivation are harder to come by than excuses as well :pac:

Lots of people have all the tools they need to get the same results but more excuses why they can't.

I'm not saying it's the best thing ever but people knock it out of hand. You'd have enough stupid c**ts spending the same amount on the same timeframe on cigarettes amd/or pints and peple are questioning the value of this to someone who weighed up the value to them?

COH · 09-05-2017 09:51PM

MysticMonk wrote: »

Can't argue with that but I'm saying people don't *need* to spend that amount of money if they have the willpower.
The main proplem is finding time and motivation.

Sure - its easy... all you need is google and an optional gym membership and everything else will fall right into place because everyones problems, goals and values are the exact same.

I guess thats why most of the people you will ever meet will, by the time they die, have literally spent hundreds of thousands (if not more) and never even come close to looking and feeling as they wanted to.

But sure all you need is time and motivation right?

OP clearly wasted his money doing something he enjoyed and getting exactly what he wanted from it... all while spending a miniscule percentage of his lifetime earnings... what a fool!

MysticMonk · 09-05-2017 09:59PM

Hote="Alf Veedersane;103460812"]Time and motivation are harder to come by than excuses as well :pac:

Lots of people have all the tools they need to get the same results but more excuses why they can't.

I'm not saying it's the best thing ever but people knock it out of hand. You'd have enough stupid c**ts spending the same amount on the same timeframe on cigarettes amd/or pints and peple are questioning the value of this to someone who weighed up the value to them?[/quote]

It basically comes down to a three month cut and a bit of photographic magic in the after pic.

The OP has been training for years,if he stopped and then hit it again with a vengeance he would get a form of newbie gains and the good diet and training would strip the fat pretty quick.
That wouldn't work with somebody with three stone to lose so in effect it's like a Hollywood 12 week regime with snazzy photo effects.

I'm not having a go at the OP by the way,it's certainly paid off for the hard work you put in.

Alf Veedersane · 09-05-2017 10:05PM

MysticMonk wrote: »

Hote="Alf Veedersane;103460812"]It basically comes down to a three month cut and a bit of photographic magic in the after pic.

Yup. No change between before and after. Just smoke and mirrors.

LuckyLloyd · 09-05-2017 10:05PM

Zillah wrote: »

Yeah, it's obvious from the photos that Nervous Wreck was carrying a lot of extra weight in the 'before'. He also said he had been lifting for a few years already, so there could (should) have been a lot of muscle hiding beneath the bodyfat. It's hard to guess how much was just hiding and how much was actually gained.

This image always stuck in my memory:

Powerlifters look a hell of a lot stronger when they cut - they just rarely cut because they don't care about appearance.

Honestly I'd expect the guy in the 'before' pic above to be the stronger human. From watching so many different people lift weight over the past half decade it's fairly clear that "ripped" is fully decoupled from "strong".

Mellor · 10-05-2017 04:50AM

MysticMonk wrote: »

I reckon most people trainingand dieting their arse off who were in reasonable shape to begin with could cut themselves in 12 weeks to the extent that the OP did.

Of course they could do it, but in reality they aren't doing it. The not enough time excuse doesn't really work. As Op has a job. And there's lots of people training lots, without those results to show for it.

Out of curiosity, how many days a week do you train?
I train 6 times on average. All the camera tricks won't give me a 6 pack. But I'm not solely for appearance. So it wouldn't be worth $1500 to me, but if someone is only after aesthetics, I'd say it is worth it.

Unless you were given some very expensive and prohormonal supplements I can't imagine why it costs so much.

What do you think is a fair price for a group PT session?
What about a diet plan with a couple of follow up reviews?
I don't live in Dublin, so don't know the going rates, but I know they're not free.

I'm not trying to single you out btw. I'm genuinely curious what they'd cost. Anyone is free to hazard a guess.

MysticMonk · 10-05-2017 09:12AM

Mellor wrote: »

What do you think is a fair price for a group PT session?
What about a diet plan with a couple of follow up reviews?
I don't live in Dublin, so don't know the going rates, but I know they're not free.

I'm not trying to single you out btw. I'm genuinely curious what they'd cost. Anyone is free to hazard a guess.

Well I know a guy with his own gym who charges 150 per month and that includes all the training and personal advice you could ask for.

I've also seen the results of his personal training and it's impressive.

I couldn't afford 150 per month though so I go with my generic gym membership for 40 pm and do my own cardio with cycling and rowing.

cloudatlas · 10-05-2017 09:34AM

Mellor wrote: »

What do you think is a fair price for a group PT session?
What about a diet plan with a couple of follow up reviews?
I don't live in Dublin, so don't know the going rates, but I know they're not free.

I'm not trying to single you out btw. I'm genuinely curious what they'd cost. Anyone is free to hazard a guess.

Why aren't gyms and PTs and crossfits all over the country offering this program?

Blacktie. · 10-05-2017 09:42AM

cloudatlas wrote: »

Why aren't gyms and PTs and crossfits all over the country offering this program?

I'd imagine because it requires a level of dedication and commitment most people aren't willing to give especially for the up front price point. So you can't just back out if you don't like it.

Mellor · 10-05-2017 09:57AM

MysticMonk wrote: »

Well I know a guy with his own gym who charges 150 per month and that includes all the training and personal advice you could ask for.

I've also seen the results of his personal training and it's impressive.

I couldn't afford 150 per month though so I go with my generic gym membership for 40 pm and do my own cardio with cycling and rowing.

That's probably the going rate for a good S&C gyms. If you are in Dublin, I've an idea who you are talking about.

Definitely good value, but not really the question I was asking. I'm just wondering what a typical PT charges for semi-private sessions, not gym memberships.

If your point is you can get those results for cheaper than 1500. I don't disagree, but that's not what I'm saying. You could get get those results for $0 if you were motivated

livedadream · 10-05-2017 10:01AM

Mellor wrote: »

MysticMonk wrote: »

Well I know a guy with his own gym who charges 150 per month and that includes all the training and personal advice you could ask for.

I've also seen the results of his personal training and it's impressive.

I couldn't afford 150 per month though so I go with my generic gym membership for 40 pm and do my own cardio with cycling and rowing.

That's probably the going rate for a good S&C gyms. If you are in Dublin, I've an idea who you are talking about. Definitely good value, but not really the question I was asking. I'm just wondering what a typical PT charges for semi-private sessions, not gym memberships.

If your point is you can get those results for cheaper than 1500. I don't disagree, but that's not what I'm saying. You could get get those results for $0 if you were motivated

i have buddy sessions for a tenner with a friend in cork, so 20 euro for the hour for the two of us, but there is an advance offer that if you pay in advance for a few session its goes as low as 7 euro each.
ive paid 50 an hour one on one and 15 for a half an hour one on one with different trainers.
the 15 euro was a 30 minute PT session with a trainer who is focused on rehabbing injuries and the 50 was for someone in their private gym thats only for PT sessions. It varies depending on the work you do, and the experience of the trainer.
im based in cork.

The Amazing 12 - My experience

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