Unquestioning faith Mod Warning in final post

Safehands · 29-04-2017 6:48pm #1

Having been brought up in a Catholic family, I learned about religion from my parents, my teachers and the clergy. I had a relatively strong faith until my late 20's. A couple of events occurred which led me to question my faith.
Today, I don't believe that the God we learned about as children, actually exists. Having said that, I do believe that the general message of Christianity, regarding the way we should live our lives, is a good one.
I enjoy debating religion on this forum, with intelligent people, who have different views to me. I feel quite secure in my certainty that logically, the Biblical stories cannot be true. There are too many contradictions, too many holes which can be picked apart. Having said that I don't discount the possibility of some form of life after death, just not the life after death taught to us as Catholic children.

Recently, I visited a friend who has been told she has less than six weeks to live. This lady, in her late twenties, has always had a very strong Christian faith. I listened to her talk about the journey she is about to undertake. She told me about the friends and loved ones she is going to meet again, people who have gone before her. Her genuine belief, that she is going to a better place, is both humbling and thought provoking. It has not inspired me to have a Road to Damascus conversion, but it has certainly made me think in a way I have not thought before.

It has made me ask a question: When I am in her position, as I probably will be some day, would I prefer to have her mindset or mine? A certainty that I will meet my deceased family and friends again or probable oblivion where I will never meet a loved one again? The answer is rather obvious.
This woman has a great gift, she has won the lotto.

It occurs to me that there are two types of logic. The logic that tells me that the Biblical stories and Christian beliefs cannot be true and the logic that tells me that when I am on my deathbed I will be better with her unquestioning faith, than with my lack of it.

infogiver · 29-04-2017 6:52pm

I'm 52 and certain events in my life have proved to me beyond a doubt that Jesus is real and very near.
There are far too many coincidences and random happenings in my opinion for any other explanation to be believable.

LeinsterDub · 29-04-2017 6:53pm

If all you have is a pascal's wager kind of faith. Then what exactly are you claiming to believe ?

NIMAN · 29-04-2017 6:58pm

infogiver wrote: »

I'm 52 and certain events in my life have proved to me beyond a doubt that Jesus is real and very near.
There are far too many coincidences and random happenings in my opinion for any other explanation to be believable.

Would you mind sharing, just to see what could have happened to prove to you beyond doubt that there is a god.

uck51js9zml2yt · 29-04-2017 7:11pm

I'd be of the same opinion as infogiver.
Certain things over the last 30 odd years have shown beyond doubt the faithfulness of God, but that faith in Him was ultimately shown in Him saving me on a day in August in 1984 while standing in a red and white stripped marquee.
I could point to things like his financial provision half way around the world when I had gone in obedience to Him or my wife or my very life because of her but my faith isnt because of "things", its because of Him.

EirWatchr · 29-04-2017 10:58pm

Pascal's wager has been mentioned, as has logic. Pascal also said the heart has its reasons, of which reason knows nothing. In the gospel accounts, it was the heart that drove those who approached Christ, seeking healing, or wisdom, wanting to know was He true - and those who ultimately believed in Christ, did so from the heart too. It was the Pharisees (whose hearts were set against Christ) who approached with logic, to entrap.

I will include your friend in my prayers Safehands.

r3nu4l · 29-04-2017 11:18pm

I'm in my forties and events in my life and of those around me have shown me beyond any doubt that this and other gods that people are indoctrinated to believe in, absolutely do not exist. I live a good life and am very fortunate not to suffer with disease, money troubles or anything like that. I agree that the overall message of the christ is a lovely message in and of itself and I try hard to live a good life.

The possibility that the Christian god or other gods exist is just too awful to contemplate however, because if it did, it would be the cruelest, most vindictive creature in existence, across the entire universe. A thing either too stupid or indifferent to understand our suffering and therefore idle in helping us, or too willing to take a perverse delight in watching us suffer. Not a loving God certainty!*

On my death bed, I will be sad at the thought that my loved ones will suffer and grieve for me but happy that any suffering I endure will be ending and nothingness will exist for me when I'm gone.

I would rather that, than the deluded (in my opinion) hope of a fairy tale happily ever after that caters for the cruel god I mention above.

* This is my opinion, I'm as entitled to it as you believers are to yours. It is not meant to be offensive. My own deceased mother was a devout Catholic and I did not consider her stupid or cruel, nor mock her belief in her god. Believers may 'pray' for me if they choose to do so, it's no skin of my nose.

Manach · 29-04-2017 11:46pm

As I've quote the SJ Father Martin, that the concept of people's understanding of God is in many cases an enfolding journey. It is normal to have a differing concept of the Deity in one's own passage through life and to try various paths to understand this mystery of life is part of life.

uck51js9zml2yt · 29-04-2017 11:55pm

r3nu4l wrote: »

I'm in my forties and events in my life and of those around me have shown me beyond any doubt that this and other gods that people are indoctrinated to believe in, absolutely do not exist. I live a good life and am very fortunate not to suffer with disease, money troubles or anything like that. I agree that the overall message of the christ is a lovely message in and of itself and I try hard to live a good life.

The possibility that the Christian god or other gods exist is just too awful to contemplate however, because if it did, it would be the cruelest, most vindictive creature in existence, across the entire universe. A thing either too stupid or indifferent to understand our suffering and therefore idle in helping us, or too willing to take a perverse delight in watching us suffer. Not a loving God certainty!*

On my death bed, I will be sad at the thought that my loved ones will suffer and grieve for me but happy that any suffering I endure will be ending and nothingness will exist for me when I'm gone.

I would rather that, than the deluded (in my opinion) hope of a fairy tale happily ever after that caters for the cruel god I mention above.

* This is my opinion, I'm as entitled to it as you believers are to yours. It is not meant to be offensive. My own deceased mother was a devout Catholic and I did not consider her stupid or cruel, nor mock her belief in her god. Believers may 'pray' for me if they choose to do so, it's no skin of my nose.

The sun shines on the just and the unjust, so telling us of your wonderful life doesn't do a lot for me.
Based on your feelings In wondering why you would be in this forum! You are of course free to be here:) How could God be cruel since He doesn't exist?
As He does exist, I know He's far from cruel.

Very magnanimous of you to allow believers to pray for you. It's definitely a wise person who has a get out clause ..you know..just in case he's wrong!

infogiver · 30-04-2017 12:03am

r3nu4l wrote: »

I'm in my forties and events in my life and of those around me have shown me beyond any doubt that this and other gods that people are indoctrinated to believe in, absolutely do not exist. I live a good life and am very fortunate not to suffer with disease, money troubles or anything like that. I agree that the overall message of the christ is a lovely message in and of itself and I try hard to live a good life.

The possibility that the Christian god or other gods exist is just too awful to contemplate however, because if it did, it would be the cruelest, most vindictive creature in existence, across the entire universe. A thing either too stupid or indifferent to understand our suffering and therefore idle in helping us, or too willing to take a perverse delight in watching us suffer. Not a loving God certainty!*

On my death bed, I will be sad at the thought that my loved ones will suffer and grieve for me but happy that any suffering I endure will be ending and nothingness will exist for me when I'm gone.

I would rather that, than the deluded (in my opinion) hope of a fairy tale happily ever after that caters for the cruel god I mention above.

* This is my opinion, I'm as entitled to it as you believers are to yours. It is not meant to be offensive. My own deceased mother was a devout Catholic and I did not consider her stupid or cruel, nor mock her belief in her god. Believers may 'pray' for me if they choose to do so, it's no skin of my nose.

Of course your entitled to be here and your opinion is as relevant as anyone else's.
I think that it's possible that similar experiences that we have possibly shared may have dissuaded you of the existence of God while simultaneously persuading me of the opposite.

infogiver · 30-04-2017 12:07am

NIMAN wrote: »

Would you mind sharing, just to see what could have happened to prove to you beyond doubt that there is a god.

No one stand out event, and not all the events were positive experiences for me and my loved ones.
I may have been angry with God a lot but I knew that He was there. Is there.

Nick Park · 30-04-2017 7:08am

I made a decision to follow Christ 36 years ago. My decision was based not so much on theoretical arguments about God's existence, but because I could see the lives of other people dramatically changed for the better by their embracing of Christianity.

I've experienced a lot of tough times over the last 36 years, but also a lot of joy and fulfilment. I am, by nature, an inquisitive and questioning person - so I don't think I would ever describe my faith as 'unquestioning'. I've found my Christian faith to be enormously beneficial, and I've discovered that being part of a community (the Church) has also been immensely helpful in my life.

I've seen so many answered prayers over the last 36 years, way beyond the realms of what could be credible as coincidence, that I am firmly convinced of God's existence and his love. I see no other reasonable explanation of the evidence.

But, each person is entitled to their own opinion.

r3nu4l · 30-04-2017 9:42am

Amina Spicy Self-possession wrote: »

The sun shines on the just and the unjust, so telling us of your wonderful life doesn't do a lot for me.
Based on your feelings In wondering why you would be in this forum! You are of course free to be here:) How could God be cruel since He doesn't exist?
As He does exist, I know He's far from cruel.

Very magnanimous of you to allow believers to pray for you. It's definitely a wise person who has a get out clause ..you know..just in case he's wrong!

It's not a get out clause but if people feel better by praying words to a god that does not exist and if they gain real comfort from that then it's harmless and I won't take offence. A lot of believers seen to feel that saying they will pray for someone scores points in the war of words with atheists, all I'm saying is, fire away, it makes no difference anyway

You are right in that something that does not exist cannot be cruel. My point was that if such a thing did in fact exist, it would be monstrous and undeserving of praise but instead should be reviled for what it is.

Some posters prior to me noted how fortunate their lives were and attributed this to their god, I counted by giving my view, my good life has nothing to do with any god but merely luck, circumstances and hard effort. So their attributing of luck to a god, did nothing for me, I hope you can see the point I was making now.

Finally, I'm in this forum because the OP asked would you rather die knowing the cold, hard truth, or in the warm fuzzy glow of the delusion that you will meet all your loved ones in an afterlife. I would have posted the same response in after hours, the A&A forum or any other forum it was posted in.

uck51js9zml2yt · 30-04-2017 9:53am

r3nu4l wrote: »

It's not a get out clause but if people feel better by praying words to a god that does not exist and if they gain real comfort from that then it's harmless and I won't take offence. A lot of believers seen to feel that saying they will pray for someone scores points in the war of words with atheists, all I'm saying is, fire away, it makes no difference anyway

You are right in that something that does not exist cannot be cruel. My point was that if such a thing did in fact exist, it would be monstrous and undeserving of praise but instead should be reviled for what it is.

Some posters prior to me noted how fortunate their lives were and attributed this to their god, I counted by giving my view, my good life has nothing to do with any god but merely luck, circumstances and hard effort. So their attributing of luck to a god, did nothing for me, I hope you can see the point I was making now.

Finally, I'm in this forum because the OP asked would you rather die knowing the cold, hard truth, or in the warm fuzzy glow of the delusion that you will meet all your loved ones in an afterlife. I would have posted the same response in after hours, the A&A forum or any other forum it was posted in.

Being true to your beliefs(or non beliefs) and asking someone not to pray would be a better result. I've often asked people not to pray for me!
What kind of monstrous being "loves the whole world*?....I think you need a hug:)

Life as a Christian isn't a bed of roses ( some will say it is). As I said, it rains on the just and unjust but God is in control.

lazybones32 · 30-04-2017 11:15am

"Today, I don't believe that the God we learned about as children, actually exists...
I feel quite secure in my certainty that logically, the Biblical stories cannot be true...
when I am on my deathbed I will be better with her unquestioning faith, than with my lack of it."

1: I would say the notion we have of God is incomplete or insufficient rather than untrue.
2: Which biblical stories? Creation accounts, healing stories, miracles, life after death?
3: What do you mean by unquestioning faith? Everyone has questions, very few have answers.

Steve012 · 30-04-2017 11:20am

Non biased people, non biased results.

......... · 30-04-2017 1:16pm

Safehands wrote: »

The logic that tells me that the Biblical stories and Christian beliefs cannot be true

That's quite the claim.

Care to provide a reasoned logical argument, with true premises, that proves it cannot be true ?

If you are truly interested in Logic, Logically do you understand the difference between saying you don't believe something, and making the claim it cannot be true ? I.e. Do you understand the difference between your belief/non belief and established fact ? Because the claim it 'it cannot be' requires at the very least, a sound logical argument (i.e. one where the premises are true), evidence or proof, none of which have ever been successfully provided on this forum by any anti-Christian/Catholics. Because all I've seen on this forum from anti-Christians/Catholics to date, is the continual repeated soap boxing of a very tired and failed mixture of strawmen, misrepresentations, false assumptions and ignorance of actual Christian and/or Catholic beliefs, depending on what the anti poster is railing against.

I've no issue btw with anyone who simply doesn't believe in Christianity and / or Catholicism.

Instead though this forum is flooded with a multitude of false claims about same, all of which fail when examined in detail.

Steve012 · 30-04-2017 2:30pm

......... wrote: »

That's quite the claim.

Care to provide a reasoned logical argument, with true premises, that proves it cannot be true ?

If you are truly interested in Logic, Logically do you understand the difference between saying you don't believe something, and making the claim it cannot be true ? I.e. Do you understand the difference between your belief/non belief and established fact ? Because the claim it 'it cannot be' requires at the very least, a sound logical argument (i.e. one where the premises are true), evidence or proof, none of which have ever been successfully provided on this forum by any anti-Christian/Catholics. Because all I've seen on this forum from anti-Christians/Catholics to date, is the continual repeated soap boxing of a very tired and failed mixture of strawmen, misrepresentations, false assumptions and ignorance of actual Christian and/or Catholic beliefs, depending on what the anti poster is railing against.

I've no issue btw with anyone who simply doesn't believe in Christianity and / or Catholicism.

Instead though this forum is flooded with a multitude of false claims about same, all of which fail when examined in detail.

I don't think logic even comes into it. We are limited in our understanding anyway. So trying to judge something that is vague and beyond our perception that is faith based, is like a never ending cyclical argument, pointless..
When it comes to faith I think logic goes out the window.

Does an ant ever think how it was created. Hmmm doubt it.
But we do

There is evidence coming out that DNA cannot morph. Natural selection yes, a bird gets a longer beak, or change colours to match their surroundings. But DNA apparently cannot morph its like a software program. How can for e.g Windows morph by itself into a Mac ios. It can't. mitochondrial acts the same way. Charles Darwin knew about cell's but not the workings that DNA technology has got us to today.

There's also scientists coming out saying the planet was seeded. : O

Food for thought on a Sunday

uck51js9zml2yt · 30-04-2017 3:55pm

Steve012 wrote: »

I don't think logic even comes into it. We are limited in our understanding anyway. So trying to judge something that is vague and beyond our perception that is faith based, is like a never ending cyclical argument, pointless..
When it comes to faith I think logic goes out the window.

Does an ant ever think how it was created. Hmmm doubt it.
But we do

There is evidence coming out that DNA cannot morph. Natural selection yes, a bird gets a longer beak, or change colours to match their surroundings. But DNA apparently cannot morph its like a software program. How can for e.g Windows morph by itself into a Mac ios. It can't. mitochondrial acts the same way. Charles Darwin knew about cell's but not the workings that DNA technology has got us to today.

There's also scientists coming out saying the planet was seeded. : O

Food for thought on a Sunday

Have you links ?

antiskeptic · 30-04-2017 4:26pm

Safehands wrote: »

It occurs to me that there are two types of logic. The logic that tells me that the Biblical stories and Christian beliefs cannot be true and the logic that tells me that when I am on my deathbed I will be better with her unquestioning faith, than with my lack of it.

Logically you would be better off actually seeing your friends in the afterlife than just believing before you die that you will see your friends in the afterlife

I'm a Christian about 15 years and the things that give me certainty about God's existence aren't so much the truth or otherwise of the biblical stories like Adam and Eve, Noah, Samsom. The certainty comes from encountering God to the point where it becomes as impossible to deny his existence (and interaction with me).

The character of my personal encounter is described to a tee in the Bible - which elaborates and builds on what is going on. It's also a Theory of Everything of sorts. Not of the physical world but of the spiritual reralm which undergirds and drives so much of what happens in the world today.

Its far more elegant an explanation that the clunky, disjointed and ununified explanation provided by politics, law, sociology, psychology, etc, etc.

The faith is ungrounded or unquestioning. Rather, you arrive at a terminus which no longer needs to be doubted. You can of course, get off and check out the lay of the land and begin to form your theology. But no need to question the existence of God anymore.

Safehands · 30-04-2017 6:58pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

Logically you would be better off actually seeing your friends in the afterlife than just believing before you die that you will see your friends in the afterlife

I'm a Christian about 15 years and the things that give me certainty about God's existence aren't so much the truth or otherwise of the biblical stories like Adam and Eve, Noah, Samsom. The certainty comes from encountering God to the point where it becomes as impossible to deny his existence (and interaction with me).

The character of my personal encounter is described to a tee in the Bible - which elaborates and builds on what is going on. It's also a Theory of Everything of sorts. Not of the physical world but of the spiritual reralm which undergirds and drives so much of what happens in the world today.

Its far more elegant an explanation that the clunky, disjointed and ununified explanation provided by politics, law, sociology, psychology, etc, etc.

The faith is ungrounded or unquestioning. Rather, you arrive at a terminus which no longer needs to be doubted. You can of course, get off and check out the lay of the land and begin to form your theology. But no need to question the existence of God anymore.

I think that when you are lying on your bed knowing that death is imminent, you will most likely be very scared. It's all very well for us to sit here in our full health saying what we will do or won't do. You simply don't know how you will feel.
I have seen people who have real faith, lying on their death bed. They are regularly quite peaceful, at ease, believing that they are going to a better place. The people around them are always very upset, believers and non believers. That is understandable. I would never dream of telling a person in their final hours that it is all untrue. That would be a heinous thing to do. But that begs the question, if a person has a faith like that, is it ever a good idea to try to convince them they are wrong? Having that belief is harmless and it may help them get through life, so leave them to it.

uck51js9zml2yt · 30-04-2017 7:54pm

Safehands wrote: »

I think that when you are lying on your bed knowing that death is imminent, you will most likely be very scared. It's all very well for us to sit here in our full health saying what we will do or won't do. You simply don't know how you will feel.
I have seen people who have real faith, lying on their death bed. They are regularly quite peaceful, at ease, believing that they are going to a better place. The people around them are always very upset, believers and non believers. That is understandable. I would never dream of telling a person in their final hours that it is all untrue. That would be a heinous thing to do. But that begs the question, if a person has a faith like that, is it ever a good idea to try to convince them they are wrong? Having that belief is harmless and it may help them get through life, so leave them to it.

I was with my mother in the final days of her life. She was so glad the time of her departure had come. The only thing she found difficult was the waiting.
As for me, why would I grieve? Being absent from the body she was present with the Lord. She went asleep and woke in His Presence. If anything, I envied her position. The difficulty people have with death is when they have no hope either for the deceased or for themselves.

As I sat with her in those days, I knew nothing but the presence of God and the comfort of God. It was as though the portal was opening for her and I was conscious of it and what lay beyond.

......... · 30-04-2017 8:06pm

Safehands wrote: »

I think that when you are lying on your bed knowing that death is imminent, you will most likely be very scared. It's all very well for us to sit here in our full health saying what we will do or won't do. You simply don't know how you will feel.

I know how I feel. I'm happy to remain in this learners/beginners world and continue learn as much as I can, but if I was told I was dying tomorrow and moving on, it honestly wouldn't bother me in the slightest. No one gets out of this life alive. I'm prepared to stay here for many many years and learn more, or pop my clogs tomorrow.

Based on the amazing and indescribable personal spiritual experiences I've had thanks to Christianity and praying from the heart, I'm looking forward to eternal life. And in the unlikely event energy and spirit cannot exist in the non physical world . . . I won't know anyway.

The_Valeyard · 30-04-2017 8:11pm

I have faith, but i always question it. Good to keep an open mind.

koumi · 30-04-2017 8:12pm

r3nu4l wrote: »

Finally, I'm in this forum because the OP asked would you rather die knowing the cold, hard truth, or in the warm fuzzy glow of the delusion that you will meet all your loved ones in an afterlife. I would have posted the same response in after hours, the A&A forum or any other forum it was posted in.

I hope they pump me full of enough drugs that I believe in all the warm fuzzy glows

I'd love to have some of that.

Steve012 · 30-04-2017 9:11pm

Amina Spicy Self-possession wrote: »

I was with my mother in the final days of her life. She was so glad the time of her departure had come. The only thing she found difficult was the waiting.
As for me, why would I grieve? Being absent from the body she was present with the Lord. She went asleep and woke in His Presence. If anything, I envied her position. The difficulty people have with death is when they have no hope either for the deceased or for themselves.

As I sat with her in those days, I knew nothing but the presence of God and the comfort of God. It was as though the portal was opening for her and I was conscious of it and what lay beyond.

Beautiful post.
I was with my father all through his final day's and he knew it. The last few days were peaceful for him, an air changed around him, he wasn't afraid.
There was a spiritual ness to his passing could feel it in the room. He was talking to people who weren't there (close family that had passed) the day before, and he wasn't losing his mind, he was clear till the passing.

People could say, yes he was having hallucinations or they could be termed as subconscious projections. If they were, they were feckin good ones cause he passed easy.

EirWatchr · 01-05-2017 9:14am

I have seen several family members die. Some of their passings were as described by the beautiful accounts here, so no need for me to double-down on what faith can mean at the time of death, but not everyone dies so. I have experienced a different way, where a relative so certain that there would be nothing more after this life, and robbed by an illness of a long one, become bitter and angry and resentful that this had been her lot in life - her only shot. As a result, she spent the little time remaining lashing out in anger and made life hell for all of her family (and herself). If there is no life hereafter, then neither is there the final judgement (as we are warned by Christ there is).
The memory of her death, her spiritual state then (which I can suspect from her behavior, but can never be sure of) are things that made me hope, for her sake, that there is no afterlife, no judgement, but if there is ...
so in the time I have left to me here, I will always use the faith I have been gifted to continue to pray advocate for the souls of the dead and the dying (as Catholics are called to do in charity), no matter what anyone else thinks of it.

......... · 01-05-2017 3:08pm

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I have faith, but i always question it. Good to keep an open mind.

One of the reasons my faith is so deep is precisely because I've researched and questioned it so much for myself, and just as importantly, the claims continually made against it that we are nowadays supposed to unquestionably accept instead at face value without investigating them for ourselves.

Also genuinely praying from the heart when I do pray, has paid dividends.

railer201 · 01-05-2017 7:48pm

Steve012 wrote: »

Beautiful post.
I was with my father all through his final day's and he knew it. The last few days were peaceful for him, an air changed around him, he wasn't afraid.
There was a spiritual ness to his passing could feel it in the room. He was talking to people who weren't there (close family that had passed) the day before, and he wasn't losing his mind, he was clear till the passing.

People could say, yes he was having hallucinations or they could be termed as subconscious projections. If they were, they were feckin good ones cause he passed easy.

Or it could be true, after all Christians do believe in the afterlife. I experienced a vision about a year back of a very good friend of mine who passed over some months previously. It occurred mid-afternoon whilst I was wide awake - a crystal clear image of my friend seated on a chair. The timing was relevant in that I was due to meet a member of the family the following day for the first time since this person passed over.

antiskeptic · 01-05-2017 8:18pm

Safehands wrote: »

I think that when you are lying on your bed knowing that death is imminent, you will most likely be very scared. It's all very well for us to sit here in our full health saying what we will do or won't do. You simply don't know how you will feel.

No one can say for sure, but having seen my parents die the difference between the believer and un was striking. The former composed, accepting, calm. The latter moving on the conveyor towards imminent death but turned 180 degrees from the direction of travel yearning for and hanging pointlessly on to life. It strikes me that we only get one death and it is appropriate that that be faced and dealt with rather than flee from it.

I have seen people who have real faith, lying on their death bed. They are regularly quite peaceful, at ease, believing that they are going to a better place. The people around them are always very upset, believers and non believers. That is understandable.

Scripture urges the believer not to mourn as the unbeliever does/has little option but to. Mourn because you will miss the person but that mourning significantly tempered. So yes, tear from all. But qualitatively different.

I would never dream of telling a person in their final hours that it is all untrue. That would be a heinous thing to do.

Not least because you cannot know it is untrue. To promote your beliefs to a person in that phase would indeed be heinous.

But that begs the question, if a person has a faith like that, is it ever a good idea to try to convince them they are wrong?

I'd say go for it in circumstances where folk are open to your challenge. Not on a persons deathbed of course.

J C · 01-05-2017 8:39pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

Scripture urges the believer not to mourn as the unbeliever does/has little option but to. Mourn because you will miss the person but that mourning significantly tempered. So yes, tear from all. But qualitatively different.

Quite true.
1 Corinthians 15:55-57New International Version (NIV)

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Unquestioning faith **Mod Warning in final post**

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Unquestioning faith Mod Warning in final post