Unquestioning faith **Mod Warning in final post**

Safehands

Having been brought up in a Catholic family, I learned about religion from my parents, my teachers and the clergy. I had a relatively strong faith until my late 20's. A couple of events occurred which led me to question my faith.
Today, I don't believe that the God we learned about as children, actually exists. Having said that, I do believe that the general message of Christianity, regarding the way we should live our lives, is a good one.
I enjoy debating religion on this forum, with intelligent people, who have different views to me. I feel quite secure in my certainty that logically, the Biblical stories cannot be true. There are too many contradictions, too many holes which can be picked apart. Having said that I don't discount the possibility of some form of life after death, just not the life after death taught to us as Catholic children.

Recently, I visited a friend who has been told she has less than six weeks to live. This lady, in her late twenties, has always had a very strong Christian faith. I listened to her talk about the journey she is about to undertake. She told me about the friends and loved ones she is going to meet again, people who have gone before her. Her genuine belief, that she is going to a better place, is both humbling and thought provoking. It has not inspired me to have a Road to Damascus conversion, but it has certainly made me think in a way I have not thought before.

It has made me ask a question: When I am in her position, as I probably will be some day, would I prefer to have her mindset or mine? A certainty that I will meet my deceased family and friends again or probable oblivion where I will never meet a loved one again? The answer is rather obvious.
This woman has a great gift, she has won the lotto.

It occurs to me that there are two types of logic. The logic that tells me that the Biblical stories and Christian beliefs cannot be true and the logic that tells me that when I am on my deathbed I will be better with her unquestioning faith, than with my lack of it.

infogiver

I'm 52 and certain events in my life have proved to me beyond a doubt that Jesus is real and very near.
There are far too many coincidences and random happenings in my opinion for any other explanation to be believable.

LeinsterDub

If all you have is a pascal's wager kind of faith. Then what exactly are you claiming to believe ?

NIMAN

infogiver wrote: »

I'm 52 and certain events in my life have proved to me beyond a doubt that Jesus is real and very near.
There are far too many coincidences and random happenings in my opinion for any other explanation to be believable.

Would you mind sharing, just to see what could have happened to prove to you beyond doubt that there is a god.

uck51js9zml2yt

I'd be of the same opinion as infogiver.
Certain things over the last 30 odd years have shown beyond doubt the faithfulness of God, but that faith in Him was ultimately shown in Him saving me on a day in August in 1984 while standing in a red and white stripped marquee.
I could point to things like his financial provision half way around the world when I had gone in obedience to Him or my wife or my very life because of her but my faith isnt because of "things", its because of Him.

EirWatchr

Pascal's wager has been mentioned, as has logic. Pascal also said the heart has its reasons, of which reason knows nothing. In the gospel accounts, it was the heart that drove those who approached Christ, seeking healing, or wisdom, wanting to know was He true - and those who ultimately believed in Christ, did so from the heart too. It was the Pharisees (whose hearts were set against Christ) who approached with logic, to entrap.

I will include your friend in my prayers Safehands.

r3nu4l

I'm in my forties and events in my life and of those around me have shown me beyond any doubt that this and other gods that people are indoctrinated to believe in, absolutely do not exist. I live a good life and am very fortunate not to suffer with disease, money troubles or anything like that. I agree that the overall message of the christ is a lovely message in and of itself and I try hard to live a good life.

The possibility that the Christian god or other gods exist is just too awful to contemplate however, because if it did, it would be the cruelest, most vindictive creature in existence, across the entire universe. A thing either too stupid or indifferent to understand our suffering and therefore idle in helping us, or too willing to take a perverse delight in watching us suffer. Not a loving God certainty!*

On my death bed, I will be sad at the thought that my loved ones will suffer and grieve for me but happy that any suffering I endure will be ending and nothingness will exist for me when I'm gone.

I would rather that, than the deluded (in my opinion) hope of a fairy tale happily ever after that caters for the cruel god I mention above.


* This is my opinion, I'm as entitled to it as you believers are to yours. It is not meant to be offensive. My own deceased mother was a devout Catholic and I did not consider her stupid or cruel, nor mock her belief in her god. Believers may 'pray' for me if they choose to do so, it's no skin of my nose.

Manach

As I've quote the SJ Father Martin, that the concept of people's understanding of God is in many cases an enfolding journey. It is normal to have a differing concept of the Deity in one's own passage through life and to try various paths to understand this mystery of life is part of life.

uck51js9zml2yt

r3nu4l wrote: »

I'm in my forties and events in my life and of those around me have shown me beyond any doubt that this and other gods that people are indoctrinated to believe in, absolutely do not exist. I live a good life and am very fortunate not to suffer with disease, money troubles or anything like that. I agree that the overall message of the christ is a lovely message in and of itself and I try hard to live a good life.

The possibility that the Christian god or other gods exist is just too awful to contemplate however, because if it did, it would be the cruelest, most vindictive creature in existence, across the entire universe. A thing either too stupid or indifferent to understand our suffering and therefore idle in helping us, or too willing to take a perverse delight in watching us suffer. Not a loving God certainty!*

On my death bed, I will be sad at the thought that my loved ones will suffer and grieve for me but happy that any suffering I endure will be ending and nothingness will exist for me when I'm gone.

I would rather that, than the deluded (in my opinion) hope of a fairy tale happily ever after that caters for the cruel god I mention above.


* This is my opinion, I'm as entitled to it as you believers are to yours. It is not meant to be offensive. My own deceased mother was a devout Catholic and I did not consider her stupid or cruel, nor mock her belief in her god. Believers may 'pray' for me if they choose to do so, it's no skin of my nose.

The sun shines on the just and the unjust, so telling us of your wonderful life doesn't do a lot for me.
Based on your feelings In wondering why you would be in this forum! You are of course free to be here:) How could God be cruel since He doesn't exist?
As He does exist, I know He's far from cruel.

Very magnanimous of you to allow believers to pray for you. It's definitely a wise person who has a get out clause ..you know..just in case he's wrong!

infogiver

r3nu4l wrote: »

I'm in my forties and events in my life and of those around me have shown me beyond any doubt that this and other gods that people are indoctrinated to believe in, absolutely do not exist. I live a good life and am very fortunate not to suffer with disease, money troubles or anything like that. I agree that the overall message of the christ is a lovely message in and of itself and I try hard to live a good life.

The possibility that the Christian god or other gods exist is just too awful to contemplate however, because if it did, it would be the cruelest, most vindictive creature in existence, across the entire universe. A thing either too stupid or indifferent to understand our suffering and therefore idle in helping us, or too willing to take a perverse delight in watching us suffer. Not a loving God certainty!*

On my death bed, I will be sad at the thought that my loved ones will suffer and grieve for me but happy that any suffering I endure will be ending and nothingness will exist for me when I'm gone.

I would rather that, than the deluded (in my opinion) hope of a fairy tale happily ever after that caters for the cruel god I mention above.


* This is my opinion, I'm as entitled to it as you believers are to yours. It is not meant to be offensive. My own deceased mother was a devout Catholic and I did not consider her stupid or cruel, nor mock her belief in her god. Believers may 'pray' for me if they choose to do so, it's no skin of my nose.

Of course your entitled to be here and your opinion is as relevant as anyone else's.
I think that it's possible that similar experiences that we have possibly shared may have dissuaded you of the existence of God while simultaneously persuading me of the opposite.

infogiver

NIMAN wrote: »

Would you mind sharing, just to see what could have happened to prove to you beyond doubt that there is a god.

No one stand out event, and not all the events were positive experiences for me and my loved ones.
I may have been angry with God a lot but I knew that He was there. Is there.

Nick Park

I made a decision to follow Christ 36 years ago. My decision was based not so much on theoretical arguments about God's existence, but because I could see the lives of other people dramatically changed for the better by their embracing of Christianity.

I've experienced a lot of tough times over the last 36 years, but also a lot of joy and fulfilment. I am, by nature, an inquisitive and questioning person - so I don't think I would ever describe my faith as 'unquestioning'. I've found my Christian faith to be enormously beneficial, and I've discovered that being part of a community (the Church) has also been immensely helpful in my life.

I've seen so many answered prayers over the last 36 years, way beyond the realms of what could be credible as coincidence, that I am firmly convinced of God's existence and his love. I see no other reasonable explanation of the evidence.

But, each person is entitled to their own opinion.

r3nu4l

Amina Spicy Self-possession wrote: »

The sun shines on the just and the unjust, so telling us of your wonderful life doesn't do a lot for me.
Based on your feelings In wondering why you would be in this forum! You are of course free to be here:) How could God be cruel since He doesn't exist?
As He does exist, I know He's far from cruel.

Very magnanimous of you to allow believers to pray for you. It's definitely a wise person who has a get out clause ..you know..just in case he's wrong!

It's not a get out clause but if people feel better by praying words to a god that does not exist and if they gain real comfort from that then it's harmless and I won't take offence. A lot of believers seen to feel that saying they will pray for someone scores points in the war of words with atheists, all I'm saying is, fire away, it makes no difference anyway

You are right in that something that does not exist cannot be cruel. My point was that if such a thing did in fact exist, it would be monstrous and undeserving of praise but instead should be reviled for what it is.

Some posters prior to me noted how fortunate their lives were and attributed this to their god, I counted by giving my view, my good life has nothing to do with any god but merely luck, circumstances and hard effort. So their attributing of luck to a god, did nothing for me, I hope you can see the point I was making now.

Finally, I'm in this forum because the OP asked would you rather die knowing the cold, hard truth, or in the warm fuzzy glow of the delusion that you will meet all your loved ones in an afterlife. I would have posted the same response in after hours, the A&A forum or any other forum it was posted in.

uck51js9zml2yt

r3nu4l wrote: »

It's not a get out clause but if people feel better by praying words to a god that does not exist and if they gain real comfort from that then it's harmless and I won't take offence. A lot of believers seen to feel that saying they will pray for someone scores points in the war of words with atheists, all I'm saying is, fire away, it makes no difference anyway

You are right in that something that does not exist cannot be cruel. My point was that if such a thing did in fact exist, it would be monstrous and undeserving of praise but instead should be reviled for what it is.

Some posters prior to me noted how fortunate their lives were and attributed this to their god, I counted by giving my view, my good life has nothing to do with any god but merely luck, circumstances and hard effort. So their attributing of luck to a god, did nothing for me, I hope you can see the point I was making now.

Finally, I'm in this forum because the OP asked would you rather die knowing the cold, hard truth, or in the warm fuzzy glow of the delusion that you will meet all your loved ones in an afterlife. I would have posted the same response in after hours, the A&A forum or any other forum it was posted in.

Being true to your beliefs(or non beliefs) and asking someone not to pray would be a better result. I've often asked people not to pray for me!
What kind of monstrous being "loves the whole world*?....I think you need a hug:)

Life as a Christian isn't a bed of roses ( some will say it is). As I said, it rains on the just and unjust but God is in control.

lazybones32

"Today, I don't believe that the God we learned about as children, actually exists...
I feel quite secure in my certainty that logically, the Biblical stories cannot be true...
when I am on my deathbed I will be better with her unquestioning faith, than with my lack of it."

1: I would say the notion we have of God is incomplete or insufficient rather than untrue.
2: Which biblical stories? Creation accounts, healing stories, miracles, life after death?
3: What do you mean by unquestioning faith? Everyone has questions, very few have answers.

Steve012

Non biased people, non biased results.

.........

Safehands wrote: »

The logic that tells me that the Biblical stories and Christian beliefs cannot be true

That's quite the claim.

Care to provide a reasoned logical argument, with true premises, that proves it cannot be true ?

If you are truly interested in Logic, Logically do you understand the difference between saying you don't believe something, and making the claim it cannot be true ? I.e. Do you understand the difference between your belief/non belief and established fact ? Because the claim it 'it cannot be' requires at the very least, a sound logical argument (i.e. one where the premises are true), evidence or proof, none of which have ever been successfully provided on this forum by any anti-Christian/Catholics. Because all I've seen on this forum from anti-Christians/Catholics to date, is the continual repeated soap boxing of a very tired and failed mixture of strawmen, misrepresentations, false assumptions and ignorance of actual Christian and/or Catholic beliefs, depending on what the anti poster is railing against.

I've no issue btw with anyone who simply doesn't believe in Christianity and / or Catholicism.

Instead though this forum is flooded with a multitude of false claims about same, all of which fail when examined in detail.

Steve012

......... wrote: »

That's quite the claim.

Care to provide a reasoned logical argument, with true premises, that proves it cannot be true ?

If you are truly interested in Logic, Logically do you understand the difference between saying you don't believe something, and making the claim it cannot be true ? I.e. Do you understand the difference between your belief/non belief and established fact ? Because the claim it 'it cannot be' requires at the very least, a sound logical argument (i.e. one where the premises are true), evidence or proof, none of which have ever been successfully provided on this forum by any anti-Christian/Catholics. Because all I've seen on this forum from anti-Christians/Catholics to date, is the continual repeated soap boxing of a very tired and failed mixture of strawmen, misrepresentations, false assumptions and ignorance of actual Christian and/or Catholic beliefs, depending on what the anti poster is railing against.

I've no issue btw with anyone who simply doesn't believe in Christianity and / or Catholicism.

Instead though this forum is flooded with a multitude of false claims about same, all of which fail when examined in detail.

I don't think logic even comes into it. We are limited in our understanding anyway. So trying to judge something that is vague and beyond our perception that is faith based, is like a never ending cyclical argument, pointless..
When it comes to faith I think logic goes out the window.

Does an ant ever think how it was created. Hmmm doubt it.
But we do

There is evidence coming out that DNA cannot morph. Natural selection yes, a bird gets a longer beak, or change colours to match their surroundings. But DNA apparently cannot morph its like a software program. How can for e.g Windows morph by itself into a Mac ios. It can't. mitochondrial acts the same way. Charles Darwin knew about cell's but not the workings that DNA technology has got us to today.

There's also scientists coming out saying the planet was seeded. : O

Food for thought on a Sunday

uck51js9zml2yt

Steve012 wrote: »

I don't think logic even comes into it. We are limited in our understanding anyway. So trying to judge something that is vague and beyond our perception that is faith based, is like a never ending cyclical argument, pointless..
When it comes to faith I think logic goes out the window.

Does an ant ever think how it was created. Hmmm doubt it.
But we do

There is evidence coming out that DNA cannot morph. Natural selection yes, a bird gets a longer beak, or change colours to match their surroundings. But DNA apparently cannot morph its like a software program. How can for e.g Windows morph by itself into a Mac ios. It can't. mitochondrial acts the same way. Charles Darwin knew about cell's but not the workings that DNA technology has got us to today.

There's also scientists coming out saying the planet was seeded. : O

Food for thought on a Sunday

Have you links ?

antiskeptic

Safehands wrote: »

It occurs to me that there are two types of logic. The logic that tells me that the Biblical stories and Christian beliefs cannot be true and the logic that tells me that when I am on my deathbed I will be better with her unquestioning faith, than with my lack of it.

Logically you would be better off actually seeing your friends in the afterlife than just believing before you die that you will see your friends in the afterlife

I'm a Christian about 15 years and the things that give me certainty about God's existence aren't so much the truth or otherwise of the biblical stories like Adam and Eve, Noah, Samsom. The certainty comes from encountering God to the point where it becomes as impossible to deny his existence (and interaction with me).

The character of my personal encounter is described to a tee in the Bible - which elaborates and builds on what is going on. It's also a Theory of Everything of sorts. Not of the physical world but of the spiritual reralm which undergirds and drives so much of what happens in the world today.

Its far more elegant an explanation that the clunky, disjointed and ununified explanation provided by politics, law, sociology, psychology, etc, etc.

The faith is ungrounded or unquestioning. Rather, you arrive at a terminus which no longer needs to be doubted. You can of course, get off and check out the lay of the land and begin to form your theology. But no need to question the existence of God anymore.

Safehands

antiskeptic wrote: »

Logically you would be better off actually seeing your friends in the afterlife than just believing before you die that you will see your friends in the afterlife

I'm a Christian about 15 years and the things that give me certainty about God's existence aren't so much the truth or otherwise of the biblical stories like Adam and Eve, Noah, Samsom. The certainty comes from encountering God to the point where it becomes as impossible to deny his existence (and interaction with me).

The character of my personal encounter is described to a tee in the Bible - which elaborates and builds on what is going on. It's also a Theory of Everything of sorts. Not of the physical world but of the spiritual reralm which undergirds and drives so much of what happens in the world today.

Its far more elegant an explanation that the clunky, disjointed and ununified explanation provided by politics, law, sociology, psychology, etc, etc.

The faith is ungrounded or unquestioning. Rather, you arrive at a terminus which no longer needs to be doubted. You can of course, get off and check out the lay of the land and begin to form your theology. But no need to question the existence of God anymore.

I think that when you are lying on your bed knowing that death is imminent, you will most likely be very scared. It's all very well for us to sit here in our full health saying what we will do or won't do. You simply don't know how you will feel.
I have seen people who have real faith, lying on their death bed. They are regularly quite peaceful, at ease, believing that they are going to a better place. The people around them are always very upset, believers and non believers. That is understandable. I would never dream of telling a person in their final hours that it is all untrue. That would be a heinous thing to do. But that begs the question, if a person has a faith like that, is it ever a good idea to try to convince them they are wrong? Having that belief is harmless and it may help them get through life, so leave them to it.

uck51js9zml2yt

Safehands wrote: »

I think that when you are lying on your bed knowing that death is imminent, you will most likely be very scared. It's all very well for us to sit here in our full health saying what we will do or won't do. You simply don't know how you will feel.
I have seen people who have real faith, lying on their death bed. They are regularly quite peaceful, at ease, believing that they are going to a better place. The people around them are always very upset, believers and non believers. That is understandable. I would never dream of telling a person in their final hours that it is all untrue. That would be a heinous thing to do. But that begs the question, if a person has a faith like that, is it ever a good idea to try to convince them they are wrong? Having that belief is harmless and it may help them get through life, so leave them to it.

I was with my mother in the final days of her life. She was so glad the time of her departure had come. The only thing she found difficult was the waiting.
As for me, why would I grieve? Being absent from the body she was present with the Lord. She went asleep and woke in His Presence. If anything, I envied her position. The difficulty people have with death is when they have no hope either for the deceased or for themselves.

As I sat with her in those days, I knew nothing but the presence of God and the comfort of God. It was as though the portal was opening for her and I was conscious of it and what lay beyond.

.........

Safehands wrote: »

I think that when you are lying on your bed knowing that death is imminent, you will most likely be very scared. It's all very well for us to sit here in our full health saying what we will do or won't do. You simply don't know how you will feel.

I know how I feel. I'm happy to remain in this learners/beginners world and continue learn as much as I can, but if I was told I was dying tomorrow and moving on, it honestly wouldn't bother me in the slightest. No one gets out of this life alive. I'm prepared to stay here for many many years and learn more, or pop my clogs tomorrow.

Based on the amazing and indescribable personal spiritual experiences I've had thanks to Christianity and praying from the heart, I'm looking forward to eternal life. And in the unlikely event energy and spirit cannot exist in the non physical world . . . I won't know anyway.

The_Valeyard

I have faith, but i always question it. Good to keep an open mind.

koumi

r3nu4l wrote: »

Finally, I'm in this forum because the OP asked would you rather die knowing the cold, hard truth, or in the warm fuzzy glow of the delusion that you will meet all your loved ones in an afterlife. I would have posted the same response in after hours, the A&A forum or any other forum it was posted in.

I hope they pump me full of enough drugs that I believe in all the warm fuzzy glows I'd love to have some of that.

Steve012

Amina Spicy Self-possession wrote: »

I was with my mother in the final days of her life. She was so glad the time of her departure had come. The only thing she found difficult was the waiting.
As for me, why would I grieve? Being absent from the body she was present with the Lord. She went asleep and woke in His Presence. If anything, I envied her position. The difficulty people have with death is when they have no hope either for the deceased or for themselves.

As I sat with her in those days, I knew nothing but the presence of God and the comfort of God. It was as though the portal was opening for her and I was conscious of it and what lay beyond.

Beautiful post.
I was with my father all through his final day's and he knew it. The last few days were peaceful for him, an air changed around him, he wasn't afraid.
There was a spiritual ness to his passing could feel it in the room. He was talking to people who weren't there (close family that had passed) the day before, and he wasn't losing his mind, he was clear till the passing.


People could say, yes he was having hallucinations or they could be termed as subconscious projections. If they were, they were feckin good ones cause he passed easy.

EirWatchr

I have seen several family members die. Some of their passings were as described by the beautiful accounts here, so no need for me to double-down on what faith can mean at the time of death, but not everyone dies so. I have experienced a different way, where a relative so certain that there would be nothing more after this life, and robbed by an illness of a long one, become bitter and angry and resentful that this had been her lot in life - her only shot. As a result, she spent the little time remaining lashing out in anger and made life hell for all of her family (and herself). If there is no life hereafter, then neither is there the final judgement (as we are warned by Christ there is).
The memory of her death, her spiritual state then (which I can suspect from her behavior, but can never be sure of) are things that made me hope, for her sake, that there is no afterlife, no judgement, but if there is ...
so in the time I have left to me here, I will always use the faith I have been gifted to continue to pray advocate for the souls of the dead and the dying (as Catholics are called to do in charity), no matter what anyone else thinks of it.

.........

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I have faith, but i always question it. Good to keep an open mind.

One of the reasons my faith is so deep is precisely because I've researched and questioned it so much for myself, and just as importantly, the claims continually made against it that we are nowadays supposed to unquestionably accept instead at face value without investigating them for ourselves.

Also genuinely praying from the heart when I do pray, has paid dividends.

railer201

Steve012 wrote: »

Beautiful post.
I was with my father all through his final day's and he knew it. The last few days were peaceful for him, an air changed around him, he wasn't afraid.
There was a spiritual ness to his passing could feel it in the room. He was talking to people who weren't there (close family that had passed) the day before, and he wasn't losing his mind, he was clear till the passing.


People could say, yes he was having hallucinations or they could be termed as subconscious projections. If they were, they were feckin good ones cause he passed easy.

Or it could be true, after all Christians do believe in the afterlife. I experienced a vision about a year back of a very good friend of mine who passed over some months previously. It occurred mid-afternoon whilst I was wide awake - a crystal clear image of my friend seated on a chair. The timing was relevant in that I was due to meet a member of the family the following day for the first time since this person passed over.

antiskeptic

Safehands wrote: »

I think that when you are lying on your bed knowing that death is imminent, you will most likely be very scared. It's all very well for us to sit here in our full health saying what we will do or won't do. You simply don't know how you will feel.

No one can say for sure, but having seen my parents die the difference between the believer and un was striking. The former composed, accepting, calm. The latter moving on the conveyor towards imminent death but turned 180 degrees from the direction of travel yearning for and hanging pointlessly on to life. It strikes me that we only get one death and it is appropriate that that be faced and dealt with rather than flee from it.

I have seen people who have real faith, lying on their death bed. They are regularly quite peaceful, at ease, believing that they are going to a better place. The people around them are always very upset, believers and non believers. That is understandable.

Scripture urges the believer not to mourn as the unbeliever does/has little option but to. Mourn because you will miss the person but that mourning significantly tempered. So yes, tear from all. But qualitatively different.

I would never dream of telling a person in their final hours that it is all untrue. That would be a heinous thing to do.

Not least because you cannot know it is untrue. To promote your beliefs to a person in that phase would indeed be heinous.

But that begs the question, if a person has a faith like that, is it ever a good idea to try to convince them they are wrong?

I'd say go for it in circumstances where folk are open to your challenge. Not on a persons deathbed of course.

J C

antiskeptic wrote: »

Scripture urges the believer not to mourn as the unbeliever does/has little option but to. Mourn because you will miss the person but that mourning significantly tempered. So yes, tear from all. But qualitatively different.

Quite true.
1 Corinthians 15:55-57New International Version (NIV)

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

J C

I had the privelige of attending the funeral of a great Christian woman on Saturday.
She was 98 years at the time of her death and had enjoyed good health up until recently. She died peacefully surrounded by her family and she returned to God happily and with a smile on her face.
The atmosphere in the house and church was one of sadness at losing such a genuinely nice person, mixed with great joy that she had now reached what the ultimate objective of her life was ... heaven.

smacl

Safehands wrote: »

It occurs to me that there are two types of logic. The logic that tells me that the Biblical stories and Christian beliefs cannot be true and the logic that tells me that when I am on my deathbed I will be better with her unquestioning faith, than with my lack of it.

Those two things aren't necessarily contradictory, though I'd change 'will be better' to 'would be better' on the basis that you don't currently have that faith and this may or may not change. Unfortunately, unless your faith becomes concrete and deeply held, I'd imagine it won't assuage your fear of dying. You might want to ask yourself would you ever be likely to cultivate such a faith again, and if so, is fear of dying the right reason to do so?

Elemonator

I believe the more scientists discover about our universe, the more questions are revealed. There is much out there that could possibly be impossible to us to understand now, but could have also originated from intelligent design.

I am not sure myself.

smacl

antiskeptic wrote: »

It strikes me that we only get one death and it is appropriate that that be faced and dealt with rather than flee from it.

Agreed, it is the one certainty in life. My own father died a couple of years back, and though an atheist like myself was quite stoic about it, having moved back in with my family for the last few weeks of his life. I'd hope to manage the same with kids and grandkids around the place, but who knows.

Scripture urges the believer not to mourn as the unbeliever does/has little option but to. Mourn because you will miss the person but that mourning significantly tempered. So yes, tear from all. But qualitatively different.

No doubt mourning is that bit easier for the faithful. I personally found my fathers death very difficult and to some extent still do. Atheism does have its downsides

uck51js9zml2yt

smacl wrote: »

Agreed, it is the one certainty in life. My own father died a couple of years back, and though an atheist like myself was quite stoic about it, having moved back in with my family for the last few weeks of his life. I'd hope to manage the same with kids and grandkids around the place, but who knows.



No doubt mourning is that bit easier for the faithful. I personally found my fathers death very difficult and to some extent still do. Atheism does have its downsides

Perhaps you shoud start looking at the alternative:D

smacl

Amina Spicy Self-possession wrote: »

Perhaps you shoud start looking at the alternative:D

Which is what exactly?

Safehands

smacl wrote: »

Those two things aren't necessarily contradictory, though I'd change 'will be better' to 'would be better' on the basis that you don't currently have that faith and this may or may not change. Unfortunately, unless your faith becomes concrete and deeply held, I'd imagine it won't assuage your fear of dying. You might want to ask yourself would you ever be likely to cultivate such a faith again, and if so, is fear of dying the right reason to do so?

Very relevent points. You are right of course, "would be" is far more accurate. As for cultivating that faith again, I really don't know. Ultimately, fear of death and where we all go has to be a major reason for the existence of faith in the first place, I suspect.

antiskeptic

smacl wrote: »

Agreed, it is the one certainty in life. My own father died a couple of years back, and though an atheist like myself was quite stoic about it, having moved back in with my family for the last few weeks of his life. I'd hope to manage the same with kids and grandkids around the place, but who knows.

The only believer who's died, who I know well enough to be sure of the solidity of her faith, is* my mother. Although it's an ugly business, death, there was an utterly beautiful aspect to it. Her God appeared at her side and led her through. No fear rather, wonderment, awe, comfort and humility his presence felt.

*I just noticed my use of the present continuous tense.

No doubt mourning is that bit easier for the faithful. I personally found my fathers death very difficult and to some extent still do.

My sympathy. I miss my folks and since most of the day isn't spend pondering on their eternal whereabouts, the missing can be keen. It's just that I arrive at the terminus of looking for to seeing her again soon, and perhaps hopefully, him also.

NIMAN

Elemonator wrote: »

I believe the more scientists discover about our universe, the more questions are revealed. There is much out there that could possibly be impossible to us to understand now, but could have also originated from intelligent design.

I am not sure myself.

But you tend to find that most scientists are atheists.

Peregrinus

NIMAN wrote: »

But you tend to find that most scientists are atheists.

Not necessarily. More often than not, sicentists tend to be less religious than the population of which they form part, but this doesn't necessarily mean that a majority of scientists will be non-religious- it depends on the religiosity of the wider society. Plus there are counter-examples; socieities where scientists tend to be more religious than their wider society.

You can also cook the books somewhat to get the result you want here by deciding who you will, and who you will not, regard as a "scientist". Just the natural scientists, or are you including the social scientists as well? Just those employed in scientific posts, or all those with a scientific education or qualification? Etc.

The claim that "most scientists are atheist" is usually made by combining (a) the results of a study looking at scientists (however defined) in the US, plus (b) an assumption (ironically, a deeply unscientific assumption) that the rest of the world is just like the US, really.

Finally, the thought that always occurs to me in this context; why should we care whether most scientists are atheist? Given any half-way reasonable definition of "scientists", scientists are going to be people with some degree of expertise in science. But "does God exist?" is a theological question, and being a scientist confers no particular theological expertise or philosophical wisdom. No doubt scientists have an interesting perspective from which to consider the question, but it's not an authoritative perspective, and the views of scientists on the existence of God carry no more weight that, say, the views of poets. Why would they?

smacl

antiskeptic wrote: »

My sympathy. I miss my folks and since most of the day isn't spend pondering on their eternal whereabouts, the missing can be keen. It's just that I arrive at the terminus of looking for to seeing her again soon, and perhaps hopefully, him also.

Thanks for that, and my sympathies also. I guess we're more alike than we might think. I don't ponder where my Dad is either, my belief is that his final resting place is the thoughts and dreams of myself, my sister and those who love him. The missing does remain keen and describes the sense of very well, more so than mourning.

*I just noticed my use of the present continuous tense.

Again, entirely appropriate IMHO, as it seems apparent that your love for someone can outlive them.

smacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

Finally, the thought that always occurs to me in this context; why should we care whether most scientists are atheist? Given any half-way reasonable definition of "scientists", scientists are going to be people with some degree of expertise in science. But "does God exist?" is a theological question, and being a scientist confers no particular theological expertise or philosophical wisdom. No doubt scientists have an interesting perspective from which to consider the question, but it's not an authoritative perspective, and the views of scientists on the existence of God carry no more weight that, say, the views of poets. Why would they?

It is a fair point, but I suspect the issue here is that scientists don't actually form a homogeneous a group where it is useful to consider their religious leanings. I think setting up science versus religion is a false dichotomy for this reason. That said, the linked article seems pretty weak too, i.e.

"More than half of scientists in India, Italy, Taiwan and Turkey self-identify as religious"

If the percentage of scientists in these countries that self identify as religious is considerably lower than than national average , it would suggest that scientists are correspondingly less likely to be religious that those around them. A quick glance at Wikipedia shows identification as religious running at 99% in India, 87% in Italy, 78% in Taiwan and 97% in Turkey, so noting that only half of the scientists from these countries identify as religious tells us that scientists from these places are far less likely to be religious than others.

uck51js9zml2yt

NIMAN wrote: »

But you tend to find that most scientists are atheists.

And I assume you have scientific evidence to prove your point?

I must tell the Christian scientists I know that they are wrong to believe!!

homer911

NIMAN wrote: »

But you tend to find that most scientists are atheists.

On the contrary, a survey I saw somewhere recently put scientists who believe in God in the majority and many prominent historical scientists had a strong Christian faith - will have to try and locate the results..

Peregrinus

smacl wrote: »

. . . . A quick glance at Wikipedia shows identification as religious running at 99% in India, 87% in Italy, 78% in Taiwan and 97% in Turkey, so noting that only half of the scientists from these countries identify as religious tells us that scientists from these places are far less likely to be religious than others.

A point the article itself makes, I think. But "scientists less religious than the general population" is not at all the same thing as "majority of scientists atheist".

Besides, for the result to be meaningful I think you'd have to control for other factors - you need to adjust your results to take account of other factors that are positively or negatively associated with religiosity (age, gender, social class) in order to identify any effect that may actually be attributable to being a scientist.

And, in the end, all you will learn is something about the effects of a scientific education/a scientific career (depending on how you are defining "scientist" for the purposes of your study). I don't know that you're learning anything meaningful about religion.

MrPudding

smacl wrote: »

Atheism does have its downsides

Yes, as atheists we have considerably fewer worthless platitudes at our disposal.

I have never like funerals, even when I was a believer. I dislike them more now as I think they are easier when you can give it the old "ah well, (s)he is in a better place now..."

I find losing a loved one difficult too. I guess it should be harder on me for me death is it. There is nothing after, I will not see them again. I look at my children and I know that when I die I will not be looking down on them, watching them grow and raise their own children. That makes me sad.

Amina Spicy Self-possession wrote:

Perhaps you shoud start looking at the alternative

But not sad enough to lie to myself and others. Yes, it would be great if after death I got to meet up with everyone again and live happily ever after, but that is simply not going to happen. What I try to do is enjoy my life as best I can, be the best person I can be, and try to teach my children the same. Then when the time comes I will know I tried my best to made the world a little better, and tried to instil the same desire in my children.

This life is what we have, I see no reason, particularly sadness at what happens after death, to cling to a lie.

MrP

smacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

And, in the end, all you will learn is something about the effects of a scientific education/a scientific career (depending on how you are defining "scientist" for the purposes of your study). I don't know that you're learning anything meaningful about religion.

What a scientific method teaches is to arrive at an understanding based on controlled and repeatable observation and experiment where subjective interference and bias is removed as far as is reasonably possible. Science tells us very little about religion until such time as a broadly accepted scientific theory comes into direct conflict with a strongly held religious belief, e.g. evolution versus creationism and Noah's ark etc... In this case I'd imagine that the religious beliefs held by scientists are likely to be tempered by their scientific education to the extent that they largely shy away from unacceptable literal truths in the bible. Religious doctrine is also prone to revision through scientific observation albeit rather slowly, as can be seen from the acceptance of heliocentrism over geocentrism following the works of Copernicus and Galileo.

smacl

MrPudding wrote: »

I find losing a loved one difficult too. I guess it should be harder on me for me death is it. There is nothing after, I will not see them again. I look at my children and I know that when I die I will not be looking down on them, watching them grow and raise their own children. That makes me sad.

Never having been in any way religious, this doesn't make me sad in the least in that the expectation that this might happen was never there to start with. What does strike me as somewhat sad is raising a child with the belief that they're essentially immortal only for them to arrive at the conclusion in later life that they've been sold a pup.

MrPudding

smacl wrote: »

Never having been in any way religious, this doesn't make me sad in the least in that the expectation that this might happen was never there to start with. What does strike me as somewhat sad is raising a child with the belief that they're essentially immortal only for them to arrive at the conclusion in later life that they've been sold a pup.

yes, I think probably never having been religious at all has its advantages. Don't get me wrong, I am not depressed, I don't struggle with questions of who am I, what is my purpose, what is the point... But when you spend you formative years believing this stuff, one can't help be a little sad in some circumstances.

It's a bit like the Matrix though, I am out, and I have no desire to get plugged back in.

MrP

eviltwin

I don't believe in God or an afterlife and I'm quite open about it. I also come from a very religious family. My dad died of cancer and I remember an aunt of mine saying something like "i bet you've changed your mind now" or words to that effect. She thought that I would not be able to live with the idea of never meeting my dad again and that I would suddenly find god. I didn't and I'm okay with the idea that he's gone forever, one day I will be too and that's okay.

I was raised catholic and grew up with the notion of heaven but also that of hell and purgatory. We were always told that only the very best people go straight to heaven. Personally, leaving that belief behind me was a positive one. I hadn't been a good person and did a lot of things a good Catholic shouldn't do. If its all real I'm going to hell forever. It used to worry me as a child, I'd have sleepless nights terrified I would die and go to purgatory for some minor transgression. I'm a lot happier now that I don't have to worry about some kind of cosmic karma when I eventually pop my clogs.