The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

pjohnson · 29-04-2017 05:05PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Here we have the remarkable story of where a blob of biological matter became a baby for a short while (just so it could be operated on) and then immediately went back to being a bunch of cells right after.

Amazing, must be some kind of mutant...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c70FBEwshrE

Maybe you lot should stop trying to use terms ya'll cant understand.

Outlaw Pete · 29-04-2017 05:30PM

B0jangles wrote: »

Quick question, when you were pregnant infogiver , did you tell people ' I have a baby' or would you have said 'i'm expecting a baby'? Did you call yourself a 'mother' or an 'expectant mother'?

Here's a neonatal surgeon and during an operation, and multiple times afterwards, he refers to the baby as a baby (oftentimes when the mother is not around).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLjfmRacgYw

B0jangles · 29-04-2017 05:37PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Here's a neonatal surgeon and during an operation, and multiple times afterwards, he refers to the baby as a baby (oftentimes when the mother is not around).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLjfmRacgYw

That is not an answer to the question I asked, nor was the question directed at you.

sean8carthy · 29-04-2017 05:38PM

6 million jews killed in the second world war. a terrible attrocity and is still being talked about today seventy years later.
40 million american babies killed by abortion since the seventies to today and only very few people care! where has the compassion gone?

NuMarvel · 29-04-2017 05:43PM

professore wrote: »

This is why we need whatever replaces the 8th to be written into the constitution IMO. A lot of the people on here are taking a "sure it'll be grand - no one is talking about late stage terminations on demand" approach - but leaving it up to the politicians makes this a real possibility. If you are OK with that, great, but I'm not OK with it.

It took 20 years, a case being brought to the ECHR, and public outcry to the death of a pregnant woman for our politicians to legislate just for abortions when there's a real risk to a woman's life.

I do not consider it at all likely that our politicians will do a complete 180 on the matter and allow abortion without any restrictions as to reason or gestation. Some of them are already balking at the recommendations of the CA, so we'll be lucky if even those passed.

Most countries manage to legislate for abortion without resorting to constitutional provisions. And out of those countries, I can't think of any where politicians have gone on to allow "late stage abortions on demand". There is not reason to believe Ireland would be any different, and every reason to believe we won't be.

Zubeneschamali · 29-04-2017 06:15PM

sean8carthy wrote: »

6 million jews killed in the second world war. a terrible attrocity and is still being talked about today seventy years later.
40 million american babies killed by abortion since the seventies to today and only very few people care! where has the compassion gone?

Everyone including you knows abortion is not murder. Look it up. Never was, never will be.

pjohnson · 29-04-2017 07:49PM

sean8carthy wrote: »

6 million jews killed in the second world war. a terrible attrocity and is still being talked about today seventy years later.
40 million american babies killed by abortion since the seventies to today and only very few people care! where has the compassion gone?

Bahahahahahaha hahahaha

Oh well I have to say the consistently well educated views from the anti-choice is certainly entertaining.

farmer john8 · 29-04-2017 07:52PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Everyone including you knows abortion is not murder. Look it up. Never was, never will be.

the nazis were responsible whether the jews lived or died the same as the mother carrying the baby. why cant the woman who decides to end the life of her unborn baby be allowed to press some device set up by the doctors to end the babys life and take full responsibility for her actions

The_Valeyard · 29-04-2017 07:52PM

pjohnson wrote: »

Bahahahahahaha hahahaha

Oh well I have to say the consistently well educated views from the anti-choice is certainly entertaining.

As can be the hysteria from the pro-death side.

frag420 · 29-04-2017 07:54PM

The_Valeyard wrote: »

As can be the hysteria from the pro-death side.

Yeah the Irish Undertakers Society are always hysterical!!

pjohnson · 29-04-2017 07:54PM

farmer john8 wrote: »

the nazis were responsible whether the jews lived or died the same as the mother carrying the baby. why cant the woman who decides to end the life of her unborn baby be allowed to press some device set up by the doctors to end the babys life and take full responsibility for her actions

farmer john8 wrote: »

i used to be very opposed to the liberal agenda but over the years i have mellowed quiet a bit .
1 abortion if people want to kill their unborn children let them the kids would only turn out like their parents anyway
2 gay if they wish hence no procreation
3 Euthanasia then they can go and kill themselves
all this will only insure that there are less lefty atheists around in the future

Emm

pjohnson · 29-04-2017 07:57PM

The_Valeyard wrote: »

As can be the hysteria from the pro-death side.

Yes when people dare start using scientific terms such as foetus the anti choicers instantly think that fetus and baby are two separate things. I can only imagine the overwhelming confusion if someone called an elderly person an "octogenarian".............but but you cant be an elderly AND an octogenarian.......

njs030 · 29-04-2017 08:00PM

farmer john8 wrote: »

the nazis were responsible whether the jews lived or died the same as the mother carrying the baby. why cant the woman who decides to end the life of her unborn baby be allowed to press some device set up by the doctors to end the babys life and take full responsibility for her actions

Like swallowing the abortion pill do you mean?

infogiver · 29-04-2017 08:27PM

B0jangles wrote: »

Quick question, when you were pregnant infogiver , did you tell people ' I have a baby' or would you have said 'i'm expecting a baby'? Did you call yourself a 'mother' or an 'expectant mother'?

It was 20 years ago. From the day I knew I was pregnant she was my baby. When I went to my ante natal check ups at Holles St starting at 18 weeks the midwives would have used the expression "have you felt baby move yet?" and subsequently "have you felt baby move much?", even though posters here who claim to work in the oby/gynae world claim that only the expression "foetus" is used.
I'm afraid no one told the midwives in Holles St that in 1997.
It strikes me that a lot of the politics of the pro abortion lobby is tied up with terminology and phrases.
For example, even though you are either "pro water charges" or "anti water charges" you cannot use the expression "pro abortion" . The lobby insists its "pro choice ".
It's not aborting a baby or even a foetus, it's "terminating a pregnancy ".
And it's definitely not a baby. The contents of my 40 week gestation womb is a foetus even though once it's travelled down the 4 or 5 inches of my vagina(sometimes quite quickly) it then becomes a baby.
It strikes me that in order to "sell" abortion to the masses, the exhausting mental gymnastics is like a strict code to make it palatable to people, and there's a level of dishonesty there that's disturbing.

pjohnson · 29-04-2017 08:29PM

infogiver wrote: »

It was 20 years ago. From the day I knew I was pregnant she was my baby. When I went to my ante natal check ups at Holles St starting at 18 weeks the midwives would have used the expression "have you felt baby move yet?" and subsequently "have you felt baby move much?", even though posters here who claim to work in the oby/gynae world claim that only the expression "foetus" is used.
I'm afraid no one told the midwives in Holles St that in 1997.
It strikes me that a lot of the politics of the pro abortion lobby is tied up with terminology and phrases.
For example, even though you are either "pro water charges" or "anti water charges" you cannot use the expression "pro abortion" . The lobby insists its "pro choice ".
It's not aborting a baby or even a foetus, it's "terminating a pregnancy ".
And it's definitely not a baby. The contents of my 40 week gestation womb is a foetus even though once it's travelled down the 4 or 5 inches of my vagina(sometimes quite quickly) it then becomes a baby.
It strikes me that in order to "sell" abortion to the masses, the exhausting mental gymnastics is like a strict code to make it palatable to people, and there's a level of dishonesty there that's disturbing.

"Mental Gymnastics" is also known as Science and relies on facts. Its not for everyone I guess.

infogiver · 29-04-2017 08:30PM

neonsofa wrote: »

I referred to my child as "it" for the entire pregnancy as I didn't know the gender. Then when her uncle regularly referred to her as "it" after the birth it started to sound kind of rude. It's all about context and who is saying it. Expectant parents are obviously going to be more likely to use affectionate terms.

But when you had a scan of your womb when you were pregnant you didn't see any baby?

neonsofa · 29-04-2017 08:34PM

infogiver wrote: »

But when you had a scan of your womb when you were pregnant you didn't see any baby?

You went to the bother of quoting my post so im unsure how you then failed to read what I actually said.

infogiver · 29-04-2017 08:34PM

pjohnson wrote: »

"Mental Gymnastics" is also known as Science and relies on facts. Its not for everyone I guess.

Mental gymnastics is being on gaurd all the time when speaking about pregnancy and childbirth so as not to confer personhood on the contents of a pregnant woman's womb.
You think you sound very clever, I'm not afraid to point out your just coming across as unbearably arrogant by dismissing the opinion of someone who doesn't agree with you.
Arrogant and immature to be precise.

infogiver · 29-04-2017 08:36PM

infogiver wrote: »

But when you had a scan of your womb when you were pregnant you didn't see any baby?

I just wanted you to confirm that you didn't see a baby on screen at any of your scans.
You've confirmed now that you didn't.
No offence intended.

neonsofa · 29-04-2017 08:39PM

infogiver wrote: »

I just wanted you to confirm that you didn't see a baby on screen at any of your scans.
You've confirmed now that you didn't.
No offence intended.

I've confirmed what exactly? I'm sure you have some sort of point to make but it's absolutely lost on me. As for offence, again, no idea what you're even referring to.

eviltwin · 29-04-2017 08:44PM

infogiver wrote: »

But when you had a scan of your womb when you were pregnant you didn't see any baby?

It's a developing baby.

pjohnson · 29-04-2017 08:46PM

infogiver wrote: »

Mental gymnastics is being on gaurd all the time when speaking about pregnancy and childbirth so as not to confer personhood on the contents of a pregnant woman's womb.
You think you sound very clever, I'm not afraid to point out your just coming across as unbearably arrogant by dismissing the opinion of someone who doesn't agree with you.
Arrogant and immature to be precise.

No despite your confusion and hysterics at the idea that a foetus can become a baby simply by travelling through a female is laughable. That is the literal definition of baby. The Foetus is the correct term between embryo and birth. So while you seem to be trying your best to I dunno disprove foetus is a viable term? You are just showing a hilarious lack of understanding. The foetus going through the 4-5 inches of your vagina IS the foetus becoming a baby.

You also seem to be remarkably confused in your insistence that the term "baby" and "foetus" cannot coexist. You insisting on calling your foetus a baby for its entire gestation does not alter all the scientific knowledge in the area. You can call your foetus cletus/baby/sink/thundertron2000.....its still a foetus. It doesnt become a sink/thundertron2000 because you call it one (It may become a Cletus). You cant (but you certainly are trying) just ignore facts. It IS a foetus until birth whether you like it or not. What you label the foetus is unique to you it does not mutate it from being an actual foetus. You may choose to call it "baby" but until it exits your vagina it is an actual foetus.

I'm sorry facts inconvenience/confuse you.

PopePalpatine · 29-04-2017 09:32PM

pjohnson wrote: »

Emm

You forgot this one:

farmer john8 wrote: »

if the scumbag lefty liberals want to abort their own children they can go right ahead and jump on a ferry to the uk and on the way back jump off.they wont dictate to the ordinary decent people of ireland

Of course Mr "Pro-Abort Hussies Get Out REEEEEEEEE!" thanked it. :rolleyes:

One eyed Jack · 29-04-2017 09:34PM

pjohnson wrote: »

No despite your confusion and hysterics...

I'm sorry facts inconvenience/confuse you.

Does the fact that the 8th amendment uses the legal term "the unborn" with reference to human life, confuse you? Because to refer to it as human life (as distinct from other forms of life) is far more scientifically accurate than your insistence upon using medical terminology while ignoring terms that are commonly used in a social context.

pjohnson · 29-04-2017 09:38PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Does the fact that the 8th amendment uses the legal term "the unborn" with reference to human life, confuse you? Because to refer to it as human life (as distinct from other forms of life) is far more scientifically accurate than your insistence upon using medical terminology while ignoring terms that are commonly used in a social context.

"Unborn" means foetus not baby. Without being born it is not a baby...........

One eyed Jack · 29-04-2017 09:53PM

pjohnson wrote: »

"Unborn" means foetus not baby. Without being born it is not a baby...........

Nope, you're still wrong. The unborn is a legal term -

"unborn”, in relation to a human life, is a reference to such a life during the period of time commencing after implantation in the womb of a woman and ending on the complete emergence of the life from the body of the woman

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2013/act/35/enacted/en/pdf

When referring to human life in the context of the 8th amendment, you're going to have to restrict yourself to legal definitions, not medical terminology. Your attempts to suggest that the foetus is more scientifically accurate and to hold people to those definitions, ignores the fact that statistically speaking, more abortions are performed before the developing human life ever develops to a point where it meets the medical definition of foetus.

PopePalpatine · 29-04-2017 09:54PM

pjohnson wrote: »

"Unborn" means foetus not baby. Without being born it is not a baby...........

And that's before you consider who decided the 8th Amendment's wording.

Zubeneschamali · 29-04-2017 10:07PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Does the fact that the 8th amendment uses the legal term "the unborn" with reference to human life, confuse you?

Yes.

It confuses our High Court judges too, and I"d say the supreme court are hoping we erase the term before they have to rule on what it might mean.

pjohnson · 29-04-2017 10:15PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Nope, you're still wrong. The unborn is a legal term -

"unborn”, in relation to a human life, is a reference to such a life during the period of time commencing after implantation in the womb of a woman and ending on the complete emergence of the life from the body of the woman

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2013/act/35/enacted/en/pdf

When referring to human life in the context of the 8th amendment, you're going to have to restrict yourself to legal definitions, not medical terminology. Your attempts to suggest that the foetus is more scientifically accurate and to hold people to those definitions, ignores the fact that statistically speaking, more abortions are performed before the developing human life ever develops to a point where it meets the medical definition of foetus.

Yes but I was in the most part adressing a person who has repeatedly shown that she does not believe a foetus exists and seems to find it bewildering. She believes that from day 1 it is a baby which I think you can agree is just hilariously wrong. I think trying to break that news to someone is somewhat easier as a starting point. You've got to move these things slowly. You cant give someone advanced gymastics when they are just beginning to learn.

Furthermore the fact that you admit that the statistics show that most abortions occur before a foetus is even developed does also crap all over the anti choice hysteria that full term babies will be executed. Most abortions occur long before thier hysterics. Facts really dont suit the anti choice side. But that doesnt stop them posting pictures of full term often born babies and claiming how abortion will "kill the babiez". Yet again propaganda trumps fact with that lot.

One eyed Jack · 29-04-2017 10:18PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

And that's before you consider who decided the 8th Amendment's wording.

That would be the Oireachtas PP, and we're about to let them do the very same again if they choose to adopt the recommendations of the Citizens Assembly. Abortion was already illegal in Ireland before the 8th amendment, and the introduction of the 8th amendment didn't prevent the Oireachtas from introducing legislation that would allow for abortion in circumstances other than those already legislated for. It only places an onus on the State to uphold the right to life of the unborn as equal to that of the mother as far as practicable.

It's simply not practical for the State to try and prevent women from travelling abroad to procure an abortion in order to end the life of the unborn, but it was clear from recent legal cases that the State can impose restrictions and medical practitioners have quite considerable leverage to act one way or the other in terms of the services they will and won't provide to women seeking an abortion who are suicidal - a termination of their pregnancy with an unexpected outcome, due to semantics around the issue of abortion.

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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