The Academies

CMOTDibbler · 27-04-2017 09:43AM

letf wrote: »

So Leinster aren't picking the most talented athletes, just the best coached players.

Club players who are a bit rawer are being overlooked for polished schools players.

Doesn't seem like a great idea to me, if they are trying to get the most talented players.

As I said on an individual basis I don't really have a problem with any of the players offered an academy place, I do have a problem with not offering McElroy and Frawley academy places when they are just as good as there schools counterparts - Kelleher/Mullin.

That's not what I said.

Leinster are clearly working to identify talented club players. In terms of coaching, nobody can do much about the disparity in coaching the club players can get because of the nature of the clubs versus the schools. But that's pretty much the situation in AIL teams as well.

letf · 27-04-2017 09:48AM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

That's not what I said.

Leinster are clearly working to identify talented club players. In terms of coaching, nobody can do much about the disparity in coaching the club players can get because of the nature of the clubs versus the schools. But that's pretty much the situation in AIL teams as well.

That's whats occurring!!
The excuse used against club players is that they aren't as good as their school counterparts, despite some of them starting ahead of them for Ireland under-20.

When club players are naturally disadvantaged because of their background, the academy should be proactive about getting these players in, not sending them elsewhere.

This age group(1997) is the strongest group of underage club players to come through the leinster system and none of them are being offered academy places by Leinster, in fact they are offering this age group the least amount of academy places that they have ever offered an underage class, all academy offers given to schools players though.

Prop: Greg McGrath(Wexford/Lansdowne)
Hooker: Tadgh McElroy(Dundalk/Lansdowne)
Hooker: Conor Maguire(Boyne/Old Wesley)
Lock: Jack Regan(Birr/UCD)
Backrow: Conor Hand(Navan)
Backrow: Conor Farrell(Navan/Toulouse)
Backrow: Paul Boyle(Gorey/Lansdowne)
Outhalf/Centre: Ciaran Frawley(Skerries/UCD)
Wing: Peter Howard(Cill Dara/Naas)

Sudolife · 27-04-2017 10:18AM

Tadgh McElroy had a falling out with Leinster in jan/feb, not sure if that has to do with not being offered an academy contract though

letf · 27-04-2017 10:24AM

Sudolife wrote: »

Tadgh McElroy had a falling out with Leinster in jan/feb, not sure if that has to do with not being offered an academy contract though

any idea why?

would be the only obvious explanation for him not getting an academy offer, given need for quality hookers in academy.

Hopefully one of Eoghan Clarke or Cathal Duff, prove worthy enough for an academy place next season.

shuffol · 27-04-2017 12:29PM

Would a more efficient system be for the schools to act like sub-academy's. Leinster allocate funding and expertise to a certain amount and help fund scholarships to them for the most talented young players identified around the province.

errlloyd · 27-04-2017 12:31PM

shuffol wrote: »

Would a more efficient system be for the schools to act like sub-academy's. Leinster allocate funding and expertise to a certain amount and help fund scholarships to them for the most talented young players identified around the province.

That is the way Wales have just set up I believe.

The Lost Sheep · 27-04-2017 12:35PM

shuffol wrote: »

Would a more efficient system be for the schools to act like sub-academy's. Leinster allocate funding and expertise to a certain amount and help fund scholarships to them for the most talented young players identified around the province.

Certainly not. The aim should be to reduce role of schools, to some extent, not funnel more kids into the schools. Funneling the best into the schools does nothing to help Leinsters image considering most schools are fee paying yada yada etc....
The work the development officers and club coaches have been doing is great. That can be improved upon. Trevor Hogan is the provincial talent coach. He can see the best players throughout the province.
Leinster should be running the coaching and development not leaving control to schools who will essentially have much shorter term goals....

letf · 27-04-2017 01:08PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Certainly not. The aim should be to reduce role of schools, to some extent, not funnel more kids into the schools. Funneling the best into the schools does nothing to help Leinsters image considering most schools are fee paying yada yada etc....
The work the development officers and club coaches have been doing is great. That can be improved upon. Trevor Hogan is the provincial talent coach. He can see the best players throughout the province.
Leinster should be running the coaching and development not leaving control to schools who will essentially have much shorter term goals....

club can't provide the same level of coaching or support.. SOB said as much..

The Lost Sheep · 27-04-2017 01:28PM

letf wrote: »

club can't provide the same level of coaching or support.. SOB said as much..

So we should funnel the best club players into schools which are in Cork, most of Leinster, fee paying etc. Fees that are out of range of a huge proportion of people in the country. And doesnt help the sports image which has improved hugely the past decade and a half or so..
It must be province led and keep the best kids in the clubs and build and improve the coaching kids receive in those clubs and back that up with work/coaching from the development officers/regional coaching teams within the provincial pathways

letf · 27-04-2017 01:34PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

So we should funnel the best club players into schools which are in Cork, most of Leinster, fee paying etc. Fees that are out of range of a huge proportion of people in the country. And doesnt help the sports image which has improved hugely the past decade and a half or so..
It must be province led and keep the best kids in the clubs and build and improve the coaching kids receive in those clubs and back that up with work/coaching from the development officers/regional coaching teams within the provincial pathways

Until clubs can provide sufficient support and coaching so that club players are not disadvantaged in comparison to schools players then it will be hard to keep players at clubs.

Leinsters academy being dominated by two schools won't help nor will a large group of talented club players not getting academy offers from leinster but offers from elsewhere. Reinforces elitist image.

Would the club players I listed be better players if they had moved to one of the elite schools at 16?

The Lost Sheep · 27-04-2017 02:03PM

letf wrote:

Until clubs can provide sufficient support and coaching so that club players are not disadvantaged in comparison to schools players then it will be hard to keep players at clubs.
Leinsters academy being dominated by two schools won't help nor will a large group of talented club players not getting academy offers from leinster but offers from elsewhere. Reinforces elitist image
Would the club players I listed be better players if they had moved to one of the elite schools at 16?

no they wouldn't as it distorts reality. Leinster and all provinces are helping to improve standards in clubs and that's why i agree with regulations around stopping kids play schools cup if they haven't been in a school for "x" amount of time.

shaungil · 27-04-2017 02:04PM

1 Have academy places been announced? If not then there's not really much point in giving out about who hasn't made it.
2 Hopefully guys who don't get picked by other provinces as has happened to 2 players from my own club successfully.
3 There is a framework in place for stronger kids to from Leinster to go into Development squads playing the Shane Horgan cup etc. They're not being completely ignored within Leinster rugby. They then get training within their clubs plus development contract. going to a rugby school and training 4 times a week may not be the best long term approach fro some kids.

letf · 27-04-2017 02:08PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

no they wouldn't as it distorts reality. Leinster and all provinces are helping to improve standards in clubs and that's why i agree with regulations around stopping kids play schools cup if they haven't been in a school for "x" amount of time.

and yet no club players from the 1997 age group have been deemed good enough by the leinster academy for an academy offer.

I ask again would these players have gotten better support/coaching if they had went to an elite rugby school?

Would that training and support been the difference between getting an academy place or not getting one?

letf · 27-04-2017 02:09PM

shaungil wrote: »

1 Have academy places been announced? If not then there's not really much point in giving out about who hasn't made it.
2 Hopefully guys who don't get picked by other provinces as has happened to 2 players from my own club successfully.
3 There is a framework in place for stronger kids to from Leinster to go into Development squads playing the Shane Horgan cup etc. They're not being completely ignored within Leinster rugby. They then get training within their clubs plus development contract. going to a rugby school and training 4 times a week may not be the best long term approach fro some kids.

1. No, but offers have been made. No club player from the 1997 age group in leinster has received an offer. In fact they seem to have gone out of their way to not do so. As they have only offered 4 players in the class academy deals.

2. Yes hopefully, but if they are good enough for Connacht, why not Leinster?

3. This framework hasn't helped any of the 1997 age group get leinster academy deals. I think it's quite clear that the intense training of a rugby school does benefit those players, would all 6 of the players offered contracts from Blackrock/St. Michaels been offered academy deals if they had come through the club system?

The Lost Sheep · 27-04-2017 03:06PM

letf wrote: »

and yet no club players from the 1997 age group have been deemed good enough by the leinster academy for an academy offer.

I ask again would these players have gotten better support/coaching if they had went to an elite rugby school?

Would that training and support been the difference between getting an academy place or not getting one?

They may not be ready yet. If out of school and in college they can join sub academy and may be ready next year. Perhaps they would have got more training if they had went to an "elite" rugby school.

letf wrote: »

1. No, but offers have been made. No club player from the 1997 age group in leinster has received an offer. In fact they seem to have gone out of their way to not do so. As they have only offered 4 players in the class academy deals.

2. Yes hopefully, but if they are good enough for Connacht, why not Leinster?

3. This framework hasn't helped any of the 1997 age group get leinster academy deals. I think it's quite clear that the intense training of a rugby school does benefit those players, would all 6 of the players offered contracts from Blackrock/St. Michaels been offered academy deals if they had come through the club system?

No club player may have received an offer now. That doesnt mean they wont be added later in the summer/early next season.

FrannoFan · 27-04-2017 03:11PM

letf wrote: »

1. No, but offers have been made. No club player from the 1997 age group in leinster has received an offer. In fact they seem to have gone out of their way to not do so. As they have only offered 4 players in the class academy deals.

2. Yes hopefully, but if they are good enough for Connacht, why not Leinster?

3. This framework hasn't helped any of the 1997 age group get leinster academy deals. I think it's quite clear that the intense training of a rugby school does benefit those players, would all 6 of the players offered contracts from Blackrock/St. Michaels been offered academy deals if they had come through the club system?

if only 4 players have been made offers it sounds like there will be more made. As said, that is a low number to take in. Wait and see before getting too worried.

A player might be good enough for Connacht who are realistically fighting for 6th in the table, that same player might not be good enough for leinster who basically are looking for international quality players. Both clubs are fighting on different fronts. Same way a player might be good enough for stoke city wouldn't be of interest to Real Madrid

i would agree there is an issue with players from big schools appearing better than there club counter parts. The academy should be looking rough diamonds to polish not the finished articles. Talking to an S&C coach from Leinster he reckons it takes at least a year to close the physical conditioning gap. There does seem to be some seriously short term thinking from academy managers since colin mcentee was replaced by girvan Dempsey

thebaz · 27-04-2017 03:12PM

shuffol wrote: »

Would a more efficient system be for the schools to act like sub-academy's. Leinster allocate funding and expertise to a certain amount and help fund scholarships to them for the most talented young players identified around the province.

No - schools are primarily about education, not professional rugby - besides current system is working pretty good , the quality of young players coming through Leinster academies is excellent , I can never remember a better crop of players .

letf · 27-04-2017 03:18PM

FrannoFan wrote: »

if only 4 players have been made offers it sounds like there will be more made. As said, that is a low number to take in. Wait and see before getting too worried.

A player might be good enough for Connacht who are realistically fighting for 6th in the table, that same player might not be good enough for leinster who basically are looking for international quality players. Both clubs are fighting on different fronts. Same way a player might be good enough for stoke city wouldn't be of interest to Real Madrid

i would agree there is an issue with players from big schools appearing better than there club counter parts. The academy should be looking rough diamonds to polish not the finished articles. Talking to an S&C coach from Leinster he reckons it takes at least a year to close the physical conditioning gap. There does seem to be some seriously short term thinking from academy managers since colin mcentee was replaced by girvan Dempsey

Only 4 players from the 1997 age group.. 2 of which joined the academy earlier in the season(Kelly/Larmour)

5 players from the 1998 age group have been offered academy deals - Doris, O'Brien, Kelleher, O'Sullivan & Aungier.

Care to give an example of this short term thinking?

FrannoFan · 28-04-2017 10:03AM

letf wrote: »

Only 4 players from the 1997 age group.. 2 of which joined the academy earlier in the season(Kelly/Larmour)

5 players from the 1998 age group have been offered academy deals - Doris, O'Brien, Kelleher, O'Sullivan & Aungier.

Care to give an example of this short term thinking?

The short term thinking has been with a number of Girvan Demspey choices i think he went with the player that was closer to the finished article younger instead of being able to see past that and see the potential of a player. Now i can't point at any players who missed out as they have failed to break through but some of his calls like Brewer and Dardis have not worked out. Both looked brilliant in school where they were really well coached etc and i think he had his mind made up on them.
A player will look better playing for a michaels/Rock etc because they have been brought to the top of their ability already but there is no scope for improvement. The Academy should be looking to see who maybe hasn't had all these advantages but has the potential to be better. Admittedly not an easy thing to do.
In the book "friday night lights" they talk about a number of the players not getting offerred college places on teams. The scouts opinion is that these guys are as good at Football as they are going to be(a testament to the coaches) but that they don't see them getting better and therefore not good enough to be college players. granted it is a different sport but there is an element of that in schools rugby- a player of average athletic/sporting ability gets coached to play at a high level or 100% of his potential.

The academy needs to make sure they are picking the guys who can be the best at 23/24 not he best at 19/20

letf · 28-04-2017 10:48AM

FrannoFan wrote: »

The short term thinking has been with a number of Girvan Demspey choices i think he went with the player that was closer to the finished article younger instead of being able to see past that and see the potential of a player. Now i can't point at any players who missed out as they have failed to break through but some of his calls like Brewer and Dardis have not worked out. Both looked brilliant in school where they were really well coached etc and i think he had his mind made up on them.
A player will look better playing for a michaels/Rock etc because they have been brought to the top of their ability already but there is no scope for improvement. The Academy should be looking to see who maybe hasn't had all these advantages but has the potential to be better. Admittedly not an easy thing to do.
In the book "friday night lights" they talk about a number of the players not getting offerred college places on teams. The scouts opinion is that these guys are as good at Football as they are going to be(a testament to the coaches) but that they don't see them getting better and therefore not good enough to be college players. granted it is a different sport but there is an element of that in schools rugby- a player of average athletic/sporting ability gets coached to play at a high level or 100% of his potential.

The academy needs to make sure they are picking the guys who can be the best at 23/24 not he best at 19/20

What players were ignored though?

Argument to be made they should not have offered David O'Connor an academy place, as he was never tall enough for lock. But there wasn't any other obvious options to pick ahead of him.

Oisin Heffernan getting an academy place over JP Phelan or Craig Trenier, but neither of them have progressed much.

Should Jack Power/Terry Kennedy have gotten an academy places last summer?

Should Nick Peters gotten an academy place?

FrannoFan · 28-04-2017 11:14AM

letf wrote: »

What players were ignored though?

Argument to be made they should not have offered David O'Connor an academy place, as he was never tall enough for lock. But there wasn't any other obvious options to pick ahead of him.

Oisin Heffernan getting an academy place over JP Phelan or Craig Trenier, but neither of them have progressed much.

Should Jack Power/Terry Kennedy have gotten an academy places last summer?

Should Nick Peters gotten an academy place?

It is very hard to gauge who should/shouldn't get a place. Under McEntee virtually every player who went through the academy ended up with a pro contract either with Leinster or Div 1 engl;and etc. Don't think Girve had the same rate of success.

letf · 28-04-2017 11:26AM

FrannoFan wrote: »

It is very hard to gauge who should/shouldn't get a place. Under McEntee virtually every player who went through the academy ended up with a pro contract either with Leinster or Div 1 engl;and etc. Don't think Girve had the same rate of success.

Not really sure that blame can be placed on Dempsey.

FrannoFan · 28-04-2017 12:05PM

letf wrote: »

Not really sure that blame can be placed on Dempsey.

not trying to apportion blame on anyone.

letf · 28-04-2017 12:11PM

FrannoFan wrote: »

not trying to apportion blame on anyone.

fair enough, Dempsey did a good job with the academy.

Not obvious players missed in positions of need.

Argument to be made over offering Heffernan an academy place over other options.

Your point about picking players who are near their ceiling is a valid one, but have to pick best players available, often from a very limited pool of players.

letf · 28-04-2017 12:38PM

Right now who is a better prospect as a TH prop? Andrew Porter or Charlie Connolly?

D14Rugby · 28-04-2017 01:18PM

FrannoFan wrote: »

The short term thinking has been with a number of Girvan Demspey choices i think he went with the player that was closer to the finished article younger instead of being able to see past that and see the potential of a player. Now i can't point at any players who missed out as they have failed to break through but some of his calls like Brewer and Dardis have not worked out. Both looked brilliant in school where they were really well coached etc and i think he had his mind made up on them.
A player will look better playing for a michaels/Rock etc because they have been brought to the top of their ability already but there is no scope for improvement. The Academy should be looking to see who maybe hasn't had all these advantages but has the potential to be better. Admittedly not an easy thing to do.
In the book "friday night lights" they talk about a number of the players not getting offerred college places on teams. The scouts opinion is that these guys are as good at Football as they are going to be(a testament to the coaches) but that they don't see them getting better and therefore not good enough to be college players. granted it is a different sport but there is an element of that in schools rugby- a player of average athletic/sporting ability gets coached to play at a high level or 100% of his potential.

The academy needs to make sure they are picking the guys who can be the best at 23/24 not he best at 19/20

In fairness with those two you've mentioned dardis has been really unlucky with injuries,when he gets 4/5 games under his belt he looks very good but unfortunately that hasn't happened a lot, and Brewer was brought in as a guy converted to centre who was improving as a centre but he just wasn't enjoying playing there so dropped out and went to NZ and back to flanker. He has looked good as a flanker since returning but that's a very very competitive area. I see what you're saying but I don't think those two can be put down to short term thinking.

Tarf1234 · 28-04-2017 01:39PM

letf wrote: »

Right now who is a better prospect as a TH prop? Andrew Porter or Charlie Connolly?

Comfortably Porter

letf · 28-04-2017 02:02PM

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Comfortably Porter

As a propect Porter can be argued, as he may have higher potential, as a player Connolly is comfortably more proven as a tighthead prop.

Both are unproven at TH at pro level.
Both have played some at TH at AIL.
Connolly is a proven TH scrummager at under-20 international level, while Porter is not.

U20 international level is the closest players come to playing pro rugby, Connolly is a proven player at that level. Porter is not, he is a project at tighthead.

Tarf1234 · 28-04-2017 02:04PM

letf wrote: »

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Comfortably Porter

How?

He is basically unproven as a tighthead prop, while Connolly has played nearly as much tighthead in AIL and also has proven himself at TH at u20 level.

All round player Porter is miles ahead. Scrum wise I haven't seen Porter yet at TH but haven't heard it's gone too badly. Don't see the major hype around Connolly.

letf · 28-04-2017 02:09PM

Tarf1234 wrote: »

All round player Porter is miles ahead. Scrum wise I haven't seen Porter yet at TH but haven't heard it's gone too badly. Don't see the major hype around Connolly.

Why must there be major hype?

Because he isn't built like a mutant or wasn't a standout player at schools level he isn't a good prospect?

Connolly has scrummaged at a higher level(ireland u20) and is a proven scrummager.

Porter was taken to the cleaners by Trinity and struggled against Ulster A.
That isn't surprising as he is only new to TH, but I don't think you can claim that Porter is comfortably the better TH prospect when he hasn't exactly shown he can survive at the position.

In 6 months time Porter could easily be back playing loosehead.
In 6 months time Connolly will still be a very good tighthead prop.

The Academies

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