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The Academies

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  • #1322
    Granny15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭Granny15


    letf wrote: »
    Which of Belvo's SCT winning side last year quit rugby for GAA? None.

    At most two players from that side look likely to make the academy setup.

    Interesting you don't address the rest of my points about club players not getting the same opportunity to develop via coaching/support. Or the fact that players from outside the elite school system are being ignored.

    Hawkshaw as far as I'm aware.

    Belvo should have a bigger representation than they do.

    If the Clubs don't give the players the same support/coaching as schools then that is a downfall that the Clubs players will have to live with.

    Players aren't ignored if they are good enough.


  • #1323
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    Stainalert wrote: »
    It is a lot more than that. Look at the current squad of players and where they come from. Your accusation that the academy and it's coaches are biased has no factual evidence. Rugby selection is always subjective and this will apply to academy selections whether you like it or not.

    Current academy:

    21 players - 12 players from Blackrock/St. Michaels.

    This age group 1997 has a strong club presence, yet somehow none of them make the academy. In fact only 4 players from this age group will make the academy, none of whom are club players. 4 players is way down on previous age groups. Why has this age group with it's strong club presence have a lot less academy players than previous ones?

    There may be no bias at play, but the academy has just been taken over by an ex Blackrock coach. It doesn't look great and plenty of underage club people will think similarly when the news becomes official.


  • #1324
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    Granny15 wrote: »
    Hawkshaw as far as I'm aware.

    Belvo should have a bigger representation than they do.

    If the Clubs don't give the players the same support/coaching as schools then that is a downfall that the Clubs players will have to live with.

    Players aren't ignored if they are good enough.

    Hawkshaw hasn't quit rugby.

    Frawley, McElroy and Boyle are good enough.

    I can see argument against Boyle due to backrow talent.. struggle to see argument against McElroy or Frawley.

    And the bolded is pure and utter bollix, if leinster rugby want the game to expand, it has to be about more than the top tier elite private schools.


  • #1325
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    Current Leinster squad breakdown:

    St. Michaels: 11(Molony, Leavy, McGrath, Marsh, Reid, Ryan, Deegan, Murphy, McCarthy, Byrne, O'Loughlin)
    Blackrock: 8(Murphy, Ringrose, Loughman, O'Connor, Rock, Carbery, Power, Keenan)
    Clongowes: 7(Byrne, Byrne, Kearney, Kearney, McFadden, Connors, Timmins)
    Club Rugby: 6(Dooley, Furlong, Kearney, O'Brien, Daly, O'Brien)
    Newbridge: 3(Heaslip, Tracy, O'Brien)
    St. Marys: 3(McGrath, Sexton, Kennedy)
    Gonzaga: 2(Ryan, Daly)
    Belvedere: 1(Healy)
    Castleknock: 1(Toner)
    Wesley: 1(JVDF)
    Gerards: 1(Conan)
    Terenure: 1(Dardis)
    Kings Hosptial: 1(Fitzpatrick)
    Rockwell: 1(McNulty)
    Exile: 1(Ruddock)
    Andrews: 1(Porter)
    Roscrea: 1(Heffernan)


  • #1326
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    Leinster Squad next season breakdown:

    St. Michaels: 14(Molony, Leavy, McGrath, Marsh, Reid, Ryan, Deegan, Murphy, McCarthy, Byrne, O'Loughlin, Dowling, Kelleher, Kelly)
    Blackrock: 11(Murphy, Ringrose, Loughman, O'Connor, Rock, Carbery, Power, Keenan, Doris, Mullin, O'Brien)
    Clongowes: 7(Byrne, Byrne, Kearney, Kearney, McFadden, Connors, Timmins)
    Club Rugby: 7(Dooley, Furlong, Kearney, O'Brien, Daly, O'Brien, Aungier)
    Newbridge: 3(Heaslip, Tracy, O'Brien)
    St. Marys: 3(McGrath, Sexton, Kennedy)
    Belvedere: 2(Healy, O'Sullivan)
    Andrews: 2(Porter, Larmour)
    Gonzaga: 1(Daly)
    Castleknock: 1(Toner)
    Wesley: 1(JVDF)
    Gerards: 1(Conan)
    Rockwell: 1(McNulty)
    Exile: 1(Ruddock)
    Roscrea: 1(Heffernan)


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  • #1327
    Granny15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭Granny15


    letf wrote: »
    Current Leinster squad breakdown:

    St. Michaels: 11(Molony, Leavy, McGrath, Marsh, Reid, Ryan, Deegan, Murphy, McCarthy, Byrne, O'Loughlin)
    Blackrock: 8(Murphy, Ringrose, Loughman, O'Connor, Rock, Carbery, Power, Keenan)
    Clongowes: 7(Byrne, Byrne, Kearney, Kearney, McFadden, Connors, Timmins)
    Club Rugby: 6(Dooley, Furlong, Kearney, O'Brien, Daly, O'Brien)
    Newbridge: 3(Heaslip, Tracy, O'Brien)
    St. Marys: 3(McGrath, Sexton, Kennedy)
    Gonzaga: 2(Ryan, Daly)
    Belvedere: 1(Healy)
    Castleknock: 1(Toner)
    Wesley: 1(JVDF)
    Gerards: 1(Conan)
    Terenure: 1(Dardis)
    Kings Hosptial: 1(Fitzpatrick)
    Rockwell: 1(McNulty)
    Exile: 1(Ruddock)
    Andrews: 1(Porter)
    Roscrea: 1(Heffernan)

    So what you're saying is that there are better players out there. Name them!

    (God it feels good to be top of that list.)


  • #1328
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    Granny15 wrote: »
    So what you're saying is that there are better players out there. Name them!

    (God it feels good to be top of that list.)

    I've already named two players who I believe should be getting academy places.


  • #1329
    Stainalert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭Stainalert


    letf wrote: »
    Leinster Squad next season breakdown:

    St. Michaels: 14(Molony, Leavy, McGrath, Marsh, Reid, Ryan, Deegan, Murphy, McCarthy, Byrne, O'Loughlin, Dowling, Kelleher, Kelly)
    Blackrock: 11(Murphy, Ringrose, Loughman, O'Connor, Rock, Carbery, Power, Keenan, Doris, Mullin, O'Brien)
    Clongowes: 7(Byrne, Byrne, Kearney, Kearney, McFadden, Connors, Timmins)
    Club Rugby: 7(Dooley, Furlong, Kearney, O'Brien, Daly, O'Brien, Aungier)
    Newbridge: 3(Heaslip, Tracy, O'Brien)
    St. Marys: 3(McGrath, Sexton, Kennedy)
    Belvedere: 2(Healy, O'Sullivan)
    Andrews: 2(Porter, Larmour)
    Gonzaga: 1(Daly)
    Castleknock: 1(Toner)
    Wesley: 1(JVDF)
    Gerards: 1(Conan)
    Rockwell: 1(McNulty)
    Exile: 1(Ruddock)
    Roscrea: 1(Heffernan)

    Loughman & Carberry only finished in Blackrock - a lot of their formative years spent elsewhere. Most of the Michaels & Rock player in that squad were brought in by other coaches other than the current academy coach who you are pointing the finger at.


  • #1330
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    Stainalert wrote: »
    Loughman & Carberry only finished in Blackrock - a lot of their formative years spent elsewhere. Most of the Michaels & Rock player in that squad were brought in by other coaches other than the current academy coach who you are pointing the finger at.

    Explain the lack of players from the 1997 age group, only 4 players offered academy places.

    the 1996 age group had 9 players offered academy places.
    the 1995 age group had 10 players offered academy places.

    The 1997 age group have had 4 players offered academy places, it's very odd that next most likely players to be offered academy places from this age group are club players and they have not been offered places.

    I can't see a good argument for not offering McElroy or Frawley academy places especially given academy contracts are now only a year long.

    Either way it looks terrible to those from the non-schools background.


  • #1331
    Granny15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭Granny15


    letf wrote: »
    Explain the lack of players from the 1997 age group, only 4 players offered academy places.

    the 1996 age group had 9 players offered academy places.
    the 1995 age group had 10 players offered academy places.

    The 1997 age group have had 4 players offered academy places, it's very odd that next most likely players to be offered academy places from this age group are club players and they have not been offered places.

    I can't see a good argument for not offering McElroy or Frawley academy places especially given academy contracts are now only a year long.

    Either way it looks terrible to those from the non-schools background.

    Look, play the Clubs from that age grade against the schools and you will see who the better players are. Guaranteed they are all from the schools. Those from a non-schools background need to get to grips with their failure to develop better players. It's that way not the other way around as you are stating it.

    I'd like to add the Michaels SCT played Belvo U20's this season and beat them by 60 points. Go figure.


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  • #1332
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    Granny15 wrote: »
    Look, play the Clubs from that age grade against the schools and you will see who the better players are. Guaranteed they are all from the schools. Those from a non-schools background need to get to grips with their failure to develop better players. It's that way not the other way around as you are stating it.

    I'd like to add the Michaels SCT played Belvo U20's this season and beat them by 60 points. Go figure.

    Just because you played schools rugby does not make you more talented..

    Why is Ronan Kelleher behind Tadgh McElroy then for Ireland u20?
    Why is Ciaran Frawley 1st choice 12?
    Why is Paul Boyle is choice 7 over Barry Fitzpatrick or Tom De Jongh?

    It's utter bollix.

    what Michaels SCT did to Belvo's under-20's is irrelevant to this discussion.


  • #1333
    Granny15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭Granny15


    letf wrote: »
    Just because you played schools rugby does not make you more talented..

    Why is Ronan Kelleher behind Tadgh McElroy then for Ireland u20?
    Why is Ciaran Frawley 1st choice 12?
    Why is Paul Boyle is choice 7 over Barry Fitzpatrick or Tom De Jongh?

    It's utter bollix.

    what Michaels SCT did to Belvo's under-20's is irrelevant to this discussion.

    I've got 2 words for you - affirmative action.

    Look at how the South African team is doing.


  • #1334
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    Granny15 wrote: »
    I've got 2 words for you - affirmative action.

    Look at how the South African team is doing.

    that's a poor joke.


  • #1335
    Stainalert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭Stainalert


    letf wrote: »
    Just because you played schools rugby does not make you more talented..

    Why is Ronan Kelleher behind Tadgh McElroy then for Ireland u20?
    Why is Ciaran Frawley 1st choice 12?
    Why is Paul Boyle is choice 7 over Barry Fitzpatrick or Tom De Jongh?

    It's utter bollix.

    what Michaels SCT did to Belvo's under-20's is irrelevant to this discussion.

    Because the Ireland U20's coach is a different person to the Leinster academy coach and has different views on players which is all subjective. Personally I would have both Boyle and McElroy in the Leinster academy.


  • #1336
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    Stainalert wrote: »
    Because the Ireland U20's coach is a different person to the Leinster academy coach and has different views on players which is all subjective. Personally I would have both Boyle and McElroy in the Leinster academy.

    It's a joke that the club players lose out in the 1997 age group..

    McGrath/Boyle/McElroy/Regan/Frawley are the next players up along with Connolly and for some reason Smyth has decided to offer a historically low amount of players from this age group academy positions.

    Even more baffling when academy contract are now only 1 year commitments.


  • #1337
    Tarf1234
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭Tarf1234


    I think the preferring schools players as a narrative also does a disservice to the work put in by clubs to many of these players. Lots of these guys will also have played club rugby and as already pointed out in Carberry and Loughmans case primarily played club rugby. Augnier going in next year as a clubs player as well realistically.


  • #1338
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    Tarf1234 wrote: »
    I think the preferring schools players as a narrative also does a disservice to the work put in by clubs to many of these players. Lots of these guys will also have played club rugby and as already pointed out in Carberry and Loughmans case primarily played club rugby. Augnier going in next year as a clubs player as well realistically.

    When I say clubs player I mean a player who has come through the club underage development structures and has played leinster u18 clubs, shane horgan cup etc. Aungier fits that obviously.

    I still haven't seen a good reason for why so few players were offered academy places in the 1997 age group. The club players ignored by the academy are more than good enough for an academy place.


  • #1339
    D14Rugby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭D14Rugby


    letf wrote: »
    When I say clubs player I mean a player who has come through the club underage development structures and has played leinster u18 clubs, shane horgan cup etc. Aungier fits that obviously.

    I still haven't seen a good reason for why so few players were offered academy places in the 1997 age group. The club players ignored by the academy are more than good enough for an academy place.

    well other than kelleher for mcelroy that you've said already who would you drop for who? That is a very strong intake.
    Good players who start for Ireland u20's and all that aren't given academy contracts all the time schools and clubs players, as good as players are if there's someone better in the system they wont get in. I'm not saying there isnt an element of bias or certain players dont deserve to be in there just giving the selectors the benefit of the doubt.
    Also lads. This is all rumours, nothing is for certain yet


  • #1340
    shuffol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭shuffol


    Surely this is a discussion for when the Leinster academy isn't producing top level players, as it stands it's probably the most productive academy in Europe.

    And it's no surprise why a coach picking with short-term results in mind would differ from a coach who's looking 3 years down the line. Part of why the NFL drafts is so interesting.


  • #1341
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    letf wrote: »
    Leinster Squad next season breakdown:

    St. Michaels: 14(Molony, Leavy, McGrath, Marsh, Reid, Ryan, Deegan, Murphy, McCarthy, Byrne, O'Loughlin, Dowling, Kelleher, Kelly)
    Blackrock: 11(Murphy, Ringrose, Loughman, O'Connor, Rock, Carbery, Power, Keenan, Doris, Mullin, O'Brien)
    Clongowes: 7(Byrne, Byrne, Kearney, Kearney, McFadden, Connors, Timmins)
    Club Rugby: 7(Dooley, Furlong, Kearney, O'Brien, Daly, O'Brien, Aungier)
    Newbridge: 3(Heaslip, Tracy, O'Brien)
    St. Marys: 3(McGrath, Sexton, Kennedy)
    Belvedere: 2(Healy, O'Sullivan)
    Andrews: 2(Porter, Larmour)
    Gonzaga: 1(Daly)
    Castleknock: 1(Toner)
    Wesley: 1(JVDF)
    Gerards: 1(Conan)
    Rockwell: 1(McNulty)
    Exile: 1(Ruddock)
    Roscrea: 1(Heffernan)
    You could add that several of those who attended some of the schools spent a lot/most of their age grade rugby playing youths rugby.
    Also clubs that developed the club players were: Birr, Wexford, Clontarf, Co Carlow, Mullingar, Suttonians.
    letf wrote: »
    Explain the lack of players from the 1997 age group, only 4 players offered academy places.

    the 1996 age group had 9 players offered academy places.
    the 1995 age group had 10 players offered academy places.

    The 1997 age group have had 4 players offered academy places, it's very odd that next most likely players to be offered academy places from this age group are club players and they have not been offered places.

    I can't see a good argument for not offering McElroy or Frawley academy places especially given academy contracts are now only a year long.

    Either way it looks terrible to those from the non-schools background.
    It doesnt look terrible and that some havent got offered a spot now(and we dont know some more could have been offered a place) doesnt mean they wont in August/September.
    Granny15 wrote: »
    Look, play the Clubs from that age grade against the schools and you will see who the better players are. Guaranteed they are all from the schools. Those from a non-schools background need to get to grips with their failure to develop better players. It's that way not the other way around as you are stating it.

    I'd like to add the Michaels SCT played Belvo U20's this season and beat them by 60 points. Go figure.
    That isnt really true. Schools players train more but that doesnt mean theyre necessarily better players.
    And an SCT team trains much more than a 20s side by and large so you would expect many schools sides to beat a 20s side and Belvederes 20s were very average this season finishing mid table in division 2...
    Tarf1234 wrote: »
    I think the preferring schools players as a narrative also does a disservice to the work put in by clubs to many of these players. Lots of these guys will also have played club rugby and as already pointed out in Carberry and Loughmans case primarily played club rugby. Augnier going in next year as a clubs player as well realistically.
    Completely.... Spot on


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  • #1342
    Wegians89
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,511 ✭✭✭Wegians89


    Hopefully the likes of McElroy, Frawley and Boyle can get contracts in Ireland, three very talented lads going on six nations


  • #1343
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    Wegians89 wrote: »
    Hopefully the likes of McElroy, Frawley and Boyle can get contracts in Ireland, three very talented lads going on six nations

    Pretty sure all three have academy contract offers from Connacht. Certainly the first two.


  • #1344
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    shuffol wrote: »
    Surely this is a discussion for when the Leinster academy isn't producing top level players, as it stands it's probably the most productive academy in Europe.

    And it's no surprise why a coach picking with short-term results in mind would differ from a coach who's looking 3 years down the line. Part of why the NFL drafts is so interesting.

    Most productive academy in europe is either leinster or saracens.

    this discussion is valid due to articles such as this: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/leinster-rugby/leinster-benefiting-from-looking-outside-the-box-35658425.html

    combined with a new head of the academy and a new academy class...


  • #1345
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »

    That isnt really true. Schools players train more but that doesnt mean theyre necessarily better players.
    And an SCT team trains much more than a 20s side by and large so you would expect many schools sides to beat a 20s side and Belvederes 20s were very average this season finishing mid table in division 2...

    http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/leinster-rugby/leinster-benefiting-from-looking-outside-the-box-35658425.html

    As Seanie says
    "Their attitude down home - I see the young lads - is phenomenal," O'Brien says.
    "It is just probably lacking a bit of coaching and training twice-a-week when kids up here (Dublin) are training every day of the week.


  • #1346
    Quintis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 671 ✭✭✭Quintis


    letf wrote: »
    Most productive academy in europe is saracens. Leinster are 2nd.

    How is this measured?


  • #1347
    Wegians89
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,511 ✭✭✭Wegians89


    letf wrote: »
    Pretty sure all three have academy contract offers from Connacht. Certainly the first two.

    Oh that's great news, those three added to Luke carty, sean masterson, Ryan feelihy and colm de buitlear isn't a bad bunch


  • #1348
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    Wegians89 wrote: »
    Oh that's great news, those three added to Luke carty, sean masterson, Ryan feelihy and colm de buitlear isn't a bad bunch

    Assuming they take them up, could have offers from elsewhere.


  • #1349
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,839 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    letf wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/leinster-rugby/leinster-benefiting-from-looking-outside-the-box-35658425.html

    As Seanie says
    As Seanie also said, he's coaching down in Tullow as often as possible. And as the article also points out, Trevor Hogan is employed by Leinster to go around the clubs and talent scout.

    Training and coaching is always going to be an issue because it's outside school hours and there's only so much time lads can give in that time frame.


  • #1350
    Wegians89
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,511 ✭✭✭Wegians89


    letf wrote: »
    Assuming they take them up, could have offers from elsewhere.

    Very true but this is where Nigel conmed in. All three were key players in the six nations and with Nigel in the senior coaching staff the three lads could see him as a quick route to first team. Connacht have usuallyef picked up the best few under 20s not to get offered a contract at Leinster, Peter Robb and Marty Byrne from last years crowd being examples


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  • #1351
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    As Seanie also said, he's coaching down in Tullow as often as possible. And as the article also points out, Trevor Hogan is employed by Leinster to go around the clubs and talent scout.

    Training and coaching is always going to be an issue because it's outside school hours and there's only so much time lads can give in that time frame.

    So Leinster aren't picking the most talented athletes, just the best coached players.

    Club players who are a bit rawer are being overlooked for polished schools players.

    Doesn't seem like a great idea to me, if they are trying to get the most talented players.

    As I said on an individual basis I don't really have a problem with any of the players offered an academy place, I do have a problem with not offering McElroy and Frawley academy places when they are just as good as there schools counterparts - Kelleher/Mullin.


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