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The Academies

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  • #1292
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    Rumoured incoming Leinster Academy class

    Jack Aungier(TH Prop/St Fintans)
    Ronan Kelleher(Hooker/St. Michaels College)
    Oisin Dowling(Lock/St. Michaels College)
    Caelan Doris(Backrow/Blackrock College)
    Hugh O'Sullivan(Scrumhalf/Belvedere College)
    Gavin Mullin(Centre/Blackrock College)
    Tommy O'Brien(Outside Back/Blackrock College)
    Jordan Larmour(Wing/St. Andrews College)
    Jack Kelly(Outside Back/St. Michaels College)


  • #1293
    Granny15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭Granny15


    letf wrote: »
    Rumoured incoming Leinster Academy class

    Jack Aungier(TH Prop/St Fintans)
    Ronan Kelleher(Hooker/St. Michaels College)
    Oisin Dowling(Lock/St. Michaels College)
    Caelan Doris(Backrow/Blackrock College)
    Hugh O'Sullivan(Scrumhalf/Belvedere College)
    Gavin Mullin(Centre/Blackrock College)
    Tommy O'Brien(Outside Back/Blackrock College)
    Jordan Larmour(Wing/St. Andrews College)
    Jack Kelly(Outside Back/St. Michaels College)

    That's a tough class to graduate out of.

    My picks would be Dorris and O'Sullivan but Larmour will probably get full senior contract also.


  • #1294
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    Granny15 wrote: »
    That's a tough class to graduate out of.

    My picks would be Dorris and O'Sullivan but Larmour will probably get full senior contract also.

    There aren't limited contracts, most academy players graduate to leinster contracts.


  • #1295
    Granny15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭Granny15


    letf wrote: »
    There aren't limited contracts, most academy players graduate to leinster contracts.

    There are limited contracts if players aren't retiring or leaving the club as fast as there are players coming through the ranks. That leaves positions where there are senior players in abundance awfully difficult to graduate from.

    I would say the priorities are scrumhalfs and back 3 players as well as hooker but there's no point promoting a player to a senior contract if they aren't good enough.


  • #1296
    Clegg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,725 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Lots of talented Number 8's coming through now. If Deegan and Doris become as good at pro level as they are and were at underage level we'll simply have too many good players and not enough positions available in the backrow. Conan, Leavy and VdF are all 24 or younger. Murphy and Ruddock are 26. A bang up job has been done by the academy and schools.


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  • #1297
    Tarf1234
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭Tarf1234


    Jack Regan has signed with Ulster Academy apparently. Good move for both if true.


  • #1298
    Stainalert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭Stainalert


    Clegg wrote: »
    Lots of talented Number 8's coming through now. If Deegan and Doris become as good at pro level as they are and were at underage level we'll simply have too many good players and not enough positions available in the backrow. Conan, Leavy and VdF are all 24 or younger. Murphy and Ruddock are 26. A bang up job has been done by the academy and schools.

    And clubs


  • #1299
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Clegg wrote: »
    Lots of talented Number 8's coming through now. If Deegan and Doris become as good at pro level as they are and were at underage level we'll simply have too many good players and not enough positions available in the backrow. Conan, Leavy and VdF are all 24 or younger. Murphy and Ruddock are 26. A bang up job has been done by the academy and schools.
    And the clubs. Furlong, Carberry etc etc all came primarily or entirely through youths system. And all players in academy will have been aided hugely in their development playing AIL/20s etc in the clubs
    Tarf1234 wrote: »
    Jack Regan has signed with Ulster Academy apparently. Good move for both if true.
    His father's said it on twitter so its happening


  • #1300
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    Clegg wrote: »
    Lots of talented Number 8's coming through now. If Deegan and Doris become as good at pro level as they are and were at underage level we'll simply have too many good players and not enough positions available in the backrow. Conan, Leavy and VdF are all 24 or younger. Murphy and Ruddock are 26. A bang up job has been done by the academy and schools.

    Doris could be a 6 long term.. actually think it's where he is best suited.


  • #1301
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    Granny15 wrote: »
    There are limited contracts if players aren't retiring or leaving the club as fast as there are players coming through the ranks. That leaves positions where there are senior players in abundance awfully difficult to graduate from.

    I would say the priorities are scrumhalfs and back 3 players as well as hooker but there's no point promoting a player to a senior contract if they aren't good enough.

    Players are always retiring/leaving the club...

    It's a very talented group of players who all have the ability to be leinster senior players.

    It's almost certain that more than Doris/Larmour and O'Sullivan will make it onto leinster senior deals.


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  • #1302
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    And the clubs. Furlong, Carberry etc etc all came primarily or entirely through youths system. And all players in academy will have been aided hugely in their development playing AIL/20s etc in the clubs

    it's shame that leinster's best age group(1997) of underage club players has produced no academy leinster players and that the leinster academy continues to be dominated by two D4 schools.


  • #1303
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Yet. They may well be added in next season.


  • #1304
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    Yet. They may well be added.

    Pretty unlikely though.

    Doesn't look great how dominated the leinster academy is by two south dublin schools, but not much they can do about it.


  • #1305
    Stainalert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭Stainalert


    letf wrote: »
    it's shame that leinster's best age group(1997) of underage club players has produced no academy leinster players and that the leinster academy continues to be dominated by two D4 schools.

    Blackrock is County Dublin.

    The best prospects are the best prospects. Where they originate from is not relevant.


  • #1306
    Granny15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭Granny15


    letf wrote: »
    it's shame that leinster's best age group(1997) of underage club players has produced no academy leinster players and that the leinster academy continues to be dominated by two D4 schools.

    If the best players are from D4 schools then so be it. Live with it. Having a chip on your shoulder about D4 isn't the way to deal with it.


  • #1307
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Stainalert wrote:
    Blackrock is County Dublin.
    The best prospects are the best prospects. Where they originate from is not relevant.
    semantics but he's correct it is real disappointing if so many prospects come from such a limited pool


  • #1308
    Stainalert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭Stainalert


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    semantics but he's correct it is real disappointing if so many prospects come from such a limited pool

    Why?


  • #1309
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    Stainalert wrote: »
    Blackrock is County Dublin.

    The best prospects are the best prospects. Where they originate from is not relevant.

    It's certainly relevant to people outside dublin, who see the best underage club prospects not offered academy places and the academy dominated by two schools.

    the academy being run by an ex Blackrock coach isn't going to help the perception either.


  • #1310
    Granny15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭Granny15


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    semantics but he's correct it is real disappointing if so many prospects come from such a limited pool

    Don't you see the irony in country people arguing for diversity?


  • #1311
    Granny15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭Granny15


    letf wrote: »
    It's certainly relevant to people outside dublin, who see the best underage club prospects not offered academy places and the academy dominated by two schools.

    the academy being run by an ex Blackrock coach isn't going to help the perception either.

    If you want to be part of an organisation run out of D4 become part of it don't insult it. The Academy is based on meritocracy - if you're not good enough get lost.


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  • #1312
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    Stainalert wrote: »
    Why?

    Because the academy being dominated by two schools doesn't look good, nor should it actually be the case.

    Blackrock/Michaels don't have a monopoly on the best athletes, what about the academy prospects in the other counties of Leinster?


  • #1313
    Granny15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭Granny15


    letf wrote: »
    Because the academy being dominated by two schools doesn't look good, nor should it actually be the case.

    Blackrock/Michaels don't have a monopoly on the best athletes, what about the academy prospects in the other counties of Leinster?

    At this point in time they do evidenced by their performances in the Cups over the past decade.


  • #1314
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    Granny15 wrote: »
    At this point in time they do evidenced by their performances in the Cups over the past decade.

    What about all the club players in the province?

    you know players from outside dublin?

    Blackrock/Michaels develop the best rugby players.. although last I checked Belvo were in the last 3 Senior cup finals.

    Blackrock/Michaels do not have a monopoly on the best athletes in the province. It's just those athletes outside of the elite school system do not get enough coaching as those within it in order to develop into the best rugby prospects.


  • #1315
    Granny15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭Granny15


    letf wrote: »
    What about all the club players in the province?

    you know players from outside dublin?

    Blackrock/Michaels develop the best rugby players.. although last I checked Belvo were in the last 3 Senior cup finals.

    Blackrock/Michaels do not have a monopoly on the best athletes in the province. It's just those athletes outside of the elite school system do not get enough coaching as those within it.

    That's true about Belvo and you could argue Roscrea as well. Funnily enough players in both those schools don't tend to go on and play rugby after school at least not within the province as they come from all over the country and in Belvos case they go on to play GAA.


  • #1316
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    Granny15 wrote: »
    That's true about Belvo and you could argue Roscrea as well. Funnily enough players in both those schools don't tend to go on and play rugby after school at least not within the province as they come from all over the country and in Belvos case they go on to play GAA.

    Which of Belvo's SCT winning side last year quit rugby for GAA? None.

    At most two players from that side look likely to make the academy setup.

    Interesting you don't address the rest of my points about club players not getting the same opportunity to develop via coaching/support. Or the fact that players from outside the elite school system are being ignored.


  • #1317
    Stainalert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭Stainalert


    letf wrote: »
    What about all the club players in the province?

    you know players from outside dublin?

    Blackrock/Michaels develop the best rugby players.. although last I checked Belvo were in the last 3 Senior cup finals.

    Blackrock/Michaels do not have a monopoly on the best athletes in the province. It's just those athletes outside of the elite school system do not get enough coaching as those within it in order to develop into the best rugby prospects.

    So you are suggesting positive discrimination to non Dublin players whereby the academy does not actually pick (in their opinion) the best players. That policy hasn't panned out too well for South Africa of late. The academy is producing quality players for the senior team - that is it's purpose. It is not a welfare program for disadvantaged players.


  • #1318
    letf
    Site Banned Posts: 262 ✭✭letf


    Stainalert wrote: »
    So you are suggesting positive discrimination to non Dublin players whereby the academy does not actually pick (in their opinion) the best players. That policy hasn't panned out too well for South Africa of late. The academy is producing quality players for the senior team - that is it's purpose. It is not a welfare program for disadvantaged players.

    The academy should be about more than developing players from south dublin and it should not be dominated by two schools.

    Tadgh McElroy is ahead of Ronan Kelleher for Ireland u20, yet Kelleher is getting the academy offer.
    Ciaran Frawley is 1st choice 12, yet he isn't getting an academy offer.
    Paul Boyle is 1st choice 7, yet he isn't getting an academy offer.

    It looks awful to people not from the elite schools bubble... top quality club players who have worked incredibly hard to get where they are without the support their schools counterparts receive rejected.. I wonder would those players be in a similar situation if they had attended Blackrock..


  • #1319
    Granny15
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭Granny15


    letf wrote: »
    The academy should be about more than developing players from south dublin and it should not be dominated by two schools.

    Tadgh McElroy is ahead of Ronan Kelleher for Ireland u20, yet Kelleher is getting the academy offer.
    Ciaran Frawley is 1st choice 12, yet he isn't getting an academy offer.
    Paul Boyle is 1st choice 7, yet he isn't getting an academy offer.

    It looks awful to people not from the elite schools bubble... top quality club players who have worked incredibly hard to get where they are without the support their schools counterparts receive rejected.. I wonder would those players be in a similar situation if they had attended Blackrock..

    The truth of the matter is that the schools environment is a pressure cooker and develops players a lot better than clubs do. Why is this? Players are exacted to excruciating levels of fitness and conditioning and train 2 times a day at least so are well prepared for the professional game. Schools is as close as it gets to professionalism outside professionalism. Deal with it.


  • #1320
    Stainalert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭Stainalert


    letf wrote: »
    The academy should be about more than developing players from south dublin and it should not be dominated by two schools.

    It is a lot more than that. Look at the current squad of players and where they come from. Your accusation that the academy and it's coaches are biased has no factual evidence. Rugby selection is always subjective and this will apply to academy selections whether you like it or not.


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  • #1321
    Stainalert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭Stainalert


    letf wrote: »
    The academy should be about more than developing players from south dublin and it should not be dominated by two schools.

    Tadgh McElroy is ahead of Ronan Kelleher for Ireland u20, yet Kelleher is getting the academy offer.
    Ciaran Frawley is 1st choice 12, yet he isn't getting an academy offer.
    Paul Boyle is 1st choice 7, yet he isn't getting an academy offer.

    It looks awful to people not from the elite schools bubble... top quality club players who have worked incredibly hard to get where they are without the support their schools counterparts receive rejected.. I wonder would those players be in a similar situation if they had attended Blackrock..

    I'm Lansdowne so have a bias to McElroy and Boyle but have you factored in the fact that Tadgh MElroy is older than Kelleher so perhaps that has something to do with it and that Boyle is an 8 playing at 7 and the academy and leinster squad have an abundance of talent in the back row?


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