The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

Samaris wrote: »

Well, it's a pretty common reason to be swayed by something. She was suddenly affected, she suddenly had the cold pit of fear that something had gone wrong, she reacted feeling the panic and alarm that other women feel. Maybe she just felt afterwards "Well, if I felt like that, maybe women getting abortions aren't just doing it like they're buying a carton of milk..maybe I should look into this more."

Sure it is ... but so is any moral stance. For example, if I hold a moral position that you should never hit a woman (as I do). Then I'm in a relationship and my girlfriend annoys the hell out of me - or is horrendously abusive, and I "change my view" and thump her one to get her to shut up and leave me alone? Does that make it OK that now I "understand" why someone would be motivated to hit a woman?

Samaris wrote: »

It's not an unreasonable progression, although yes, it was sparked off by suddenly being placed into that position. And yes, obviously I'm placing emotional reactions on her, but not unreasonable ones from the original post.

Yes I can understand it - it's called rationalising, and we all do it. Some more than others. We have to try and see it for what it is.

Samaris wrote: »

My issue with all the panicked sounds about (AOD?) up-to-delivery-date abortions is that it's all a bit hypothetical. If someone needs an urgent abortion at say, eight months (around then and after that tends to be the delivery of an emergency LIVE birth by C-section or something along those lines*.), it is almost certainly urgent enough not to be for the hell of it. If someone is in the position of needing an urgent abortion to save their live/prevent damage, then what on earth are we all doing putting blocks in their way?

Saving their life is already in the constitution. Preventing damage or disability should be in there too in my opinion - as should fatal fetal abnormalities. However we can't say that we won't have any late term abortions just because someone couldn't be arsed or too out of it going to the hospital earlier if it's legal - of course we will - alcoholic or drug addicted mothers for a start. Not saying it's commonplace, but it for sure does happen. Look at this: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/adults-with-foetal-alcohol-syndrome-fill-our-jails-doctor-calls-for-more-education-on-drinking-while-pregnant-35642031.html

Data due to be discussed by experts today heard that around 600 babies are born with Foetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS) each year.


Not a big stretch to see that a large percentage of the mothers of these babies might not be too bothered going for a late stage termination. That's what the law is for, to prevent this where possible.

Say what you like, we all know what the most likely procedure needed was in Mrs. Hallapanavar's case, as much as people can shout about improper monitoring (which also contributed, but she seems to have been in that position because the proper procedure was being denied).

I agree with you on this.

Late abortions are very, very rarely carried out for sh*ts and giggles. Late abortions are carried out because something has gone badly wrong.
Women are also rational actors - why would we choose to undergo a difficult, painful, debilitating procedure at eight months rather than a far easier one prior to 12 weeks, unless something serious had happened in the meantime? I won't say it would -never- happen, because human beings can do some remarkably strange things, but it is quite unlikely compared to the far more common scenarios.

Late-term abortions are, for the most part, a red herring that detracts from the essential debate.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/570040/Updated_Abortion_Statistics_2015.pdf

1.5% of abortions in England and Wales - culturally very similar to ourselves - were 20 weeks and over. There were 191014 in total so that makes 2865 late term abortions. If we take 5000 as the number of Irish abortions often touted, this would equate to 75 late term abortions. So a small but not insignificant number.

*And will someone please explain to me what a day-before-delivery abortion looks like? I strongly suspect it looks like a live birth.

I don't have the stomach to look at the links but they are there if you want to see. I'm sure the pro lifers will have a poster on every lamppost in the country soon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_termination_of_pregnancy#Methods

There are at least three medical procedures associated with late-term abortions:

Dilation and evacuation (D&E)
Early labor induction (sometimes called "induction abortion")
Intact dilation and extraction (IDX or D&X), sometimes referred to as "partial-birth abortion"

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, there most certainly is an element of hubris in the Repeal the 8th movement, just like there was in the same-sex marriage campaign. It does go over-the-top with the "celebrate" and "overjoyed". That disappoints, sickens and saddens me too. However, that doesn't mean their message is wrong.

Like you, I am a father of 3. I will be voting to replace the 8th Amendment. It is a very stupid amendment which has caused huge problems both legally and socially. The sooner it is gone, the better.

What should replace it? That is a matter for the Oireachtas to decide.

I agree except I think it should be replaced by clearly defined laws similar to the German ones which we can all vote Yes or No to in a referendum. Not let the Oireachtas decide. Why? The same reason the Oireachtas didn't get to decide when a gay marriage was valid or not - because they would have made some crappy compromise that no-one would be happy with.