2017 UK General Election - 8th June

Memnoch · 18-04-2017 03:21PM

catbear wrote: »

That is so patronizing. I'm waiting for you to say they need to be liberated form their vote so only good decisions will be made by glorious leader Corbyn.

I'd laugh only I know it's serious sycophants like yourself that's kept Corbyn in while he's alienates many more. True believers.

Not at all. One man one vote is democracy. But it does require informed choice. I don't really see a way to save democracy sadly. The oligarchs rule and they will continue to erode democratic policies and institutions.

catbear · 18-04-2017 03:30PM

Memnoch wrote: »

Not at all. One man one vote is democracy. But it does require informed choice. I don't really see a way to save democracy sadly. The oligarchs rule and they will continue to erode democratic policies and institutions.

More condescension!

If each person has a democratic vote then democracy doesn't need saving.

Your problem isn't democracy. It's that you can't accept that people have opinions different to yours and the only way to change that is to sit on top of a dictatorship.

Memnoch · 18-04-2017 03:36PM

catbear wrote: »

More condescension!

If each person has a democratic vote then democracy doesn't need saving.

Your problem isn't democracy. It's that you can't accept that people have opinions different to yours and the only way to change that is to sit on top of a dictatorship.

The idea of democracy is that the interests of ordinary people should get fair representation so that laws help to create a fair society rather than one skewed in favour of those with the most wealth and power.

Control of news media and corrupting of politicians through donations (bribes) has completely corrupted the process.

What we have is increasingly only the illusion of a democractic society.

Sam Russell · 18-04-2017 03:40PM

Memnoch wrote: »

The idea of democracy is that the interests of ordinary people should get fair representation so that laws help to create a fair society rather than one skewed in favour of those with the most wealth and power.

Control of news media and corrupting of politicians through donations (bribes) has completely corrupted the process.

What we have is increasingly only the illusion of a democractic society.

But corruption has always been there. Look at the passage of the Act of Union in 1801 - bribery was rife.

Democracy is not available if, say like NI in the 1921 to 1969, when majority rule was used to suppress the minority. Majority rule like that is not democracy.

Memnoch · 18-04-2017 03:42PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

But corruption has always been there. Look at the passage of the Act of Union in 1801 - bribery was rife.

Democracy is not available if, say like NI in the 1921 to 1969, when majority rule was used to suppress the minority. Majority rule like that is not democracy.

But we do not have majority rule.

Rule is at the behest of and for the betterment of an oligarchic class.

We have voting. But not actual democracy. Voting is only one aspect of achieving a democratic society.

catbear · 18-04-2017 03:47PM

Memnoch wrote: »

The idea of democracy is that the interests of ordinary people should get fair representation so that laws help to create a fair society rather than one skewed in favour of those with the most wealth and power.

Control of news media and corrupting of politicians through donations (bribes) has completely corrupted the process.

What we have is increasingly only the illusion of a democractic society.

Nonsense. Ordinary people have made decisions that you don't like.

It's far easier for you to dismiss them than understand why they voted in ways you don't like.

catbear · 18-04-2017 03:48PM

Memnoch wrote: »

But we do not have majority rule.

Rule is at the behest of and for the betterment of an oligarchic class.

We have voting. But not actual democracy. Voting is only one aspect of achieving a democratic society.

It's will only ever be acceptable to you when they vote in your interests.

Memnoch · 18-04-2017 03:54PM

catbear wrote: »

Nonsense. Ordinary people have made decisions that you don't like.

It's far easier for you to dismiss them than understand why they voted in ways you don't like.

I understand perfectly well why ordinary people vote effectively for their own exploitation and the mass transfer of wealth to an oligarch class.

And sadly this is why liberal western democracies will cease to exist in all but name, and perhaps in time, even that before too long.

Jayop · 18-04-2017 03:54PM

TBF he is right that elections are only one element in a functioning democracy. The other main ones are a free and open media and an independent judiciary. The UK media is shocking.

ancapailldorcha · 18-04-2017 03:59PM

Mod: Post deleted. Please bear the charter in mind when posting.

Memnoch · 18-04-2017 04:03PM

Jayop wrote: »

TBF he is right that elections are only one element in a functioning democracy. The other main ones are a free and open media and an independent judiciary. The UK media is shocking.

Also, while the general elections themselves are apparently free and transparent, up to a point, the party machine politics which result in candidate selection are thoroughly rotten and corrupted.

The choice thus presented is to elect representatives bought by one oligarch or the other. Not to elect people to represent the actual electorate.

catbear · 18-04-2017 04:07PM

Memnoch wrote: »

I understand perfectly well why ordinary people vote effectively for their own exploitation and the mass transfer of wealth to an oligarch class.

And sadly this is why liberal western democracies will cease to exist in all but name, and perhaps in time, even that before too long.

Well this is an election thread so if you think democracy is futile then that's a different thread.

ancapailldorcha · 18-04-2017 04:08PM

Mod: The thread seems to have veered somewhat off course. Please take discussion of the corruption of democracy to a new thread. Thanks.

awec · 18-04-2017 04:49PM

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swampgas · 18-04-2017 04:51PM

catbear wrote: »

Nonsense. Ordinary people have made decisions that you don't like.

It's far easier for you to dismiss them than understand why they voted in ways you don't like.

Ordinary people are making decisions that really don't seem to make sense though.

To be fair to Memnoch, I think there is an argument to be made that democracy is failing when many people are unwittingly voting against their own interests. Although it's also fair to say that the information is there if people know where and how to look for it - except they don't appear to be able to do that.

There's an analogy with tobacco. Tobacco advertising worked. Tobacco was bad for people. Unwittingly many people did not realise just how bad smoking was, nor did they realise just how much effort was going into making smoking seem like a cool activity. What should have been obvious to any sensible person, clearly wasn't.

There is serious money funding political media campaigns that are massive reality distortion fields. Much of the Brexit misinformation was very slickly delivered, and much of it was effective. What should have been obvious to any sensible person, clearly wasn't.

Maybe the world is too complicated for the ordinary voter to understand. (Maybe it's too complicated for any of us to really understand - seriously!)

I don't see any easy solutions. Maybe moving towards PR, regulating the press better, and teaching critical thinking in schools would help. Maybe Facebook, Twitter and Google need to police what their platforms are serving up, as it seems they are far too easily gamed by anyone with enough resources.

Whatever else, I think Memnoch's point has some validity.

ancapailldorcha · 18-04-2017 04:52PM

awec wrote: »

I think some people are having a tough time accepting the fact that all the predictions about Corbyn's leadership of Labour are coming to pass. A sinking ship, Labour screwed themselves by letting the idealistic lunatics run the show.

The problem is that the members who voted for him are still there and will vote for him in any contest as long as his name is on the ballot. Therefore, it doesn't matter what the MP's think, nor the PLP in this context.

ArmaniJeanss · 18-04-2017 04:53PM

UK Local elections on May 4th.
I'd have thought its relatively unusual to get such a full plebiscite opinion poll 5 weeks before a GE.
If Labour do particularly badly there I wonder could there be a heave against Corbyn. (Obviously there wouldn't be time for their 90 day leadership election process, so I don't know what the actual procedure would be).

awec · 18-04-2017 04:55PM

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Memnoch · 18-04-2017 04:58PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Mod: The thread seems to have veered somewhat off course. Please take discussion of the corruption of democracy to a new thread. Thanks.

With respect. Corruption of democracy is fundamental to the reason why someone like Corbyn is needed and also fundamental to the current UK electoral landscape and the outcome of the impending general election there.

Memnoch · 18-04-2017 05:01PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The problem is that the members who voted for him are still there and will vote for him in any contest as long as his name is on the ballot. Therefore, it doesn't matter what the MP's think, nor the PLP in this context.

I hope they stick with Corbyn no matter what. Real politik is likely to prevail. Those who wanted to prove that a democratic uprising is futile have done their utmost and will have succeeded.

The future for the U.K. after this election looks very bleak indeed. A regression in countless hard won freedoms.

ancapailldorcha · 18-04-2017 05:06PM

Memnoch wrote: »

With respect. Corruption of democracy is fundamental to the reason why someone like Corbyn is needed and also fundamental to the current UK electoral landscape and the outcome of the impending general election there.

Don't debate mod warnings on thread please. The PM function can be used for this.

awec · 18-04-2017 05:06PM

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ancapailldorcha · 18-04-2017 05:07PM

awec wrote: »

I agree, an election tanking might be what it takes for them to sort themselves out.

Either that or they'll act the ostrich and try and double down behind Corbyn and blame the media \ rich people \ business \ interest groups \ the weather for Labour's failures.

Depends on whether the usual Labour voters, especially those of a centrist bent decide to abandon the party in favour of the Lib Dems. The problem is that there are areas which are safe seats for either party so they mightn't take too much of a hit.

Memnoch · 18-04-2017 05:13PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Depends on whether the usual Labour voters, especially those of a centrist bent decide to abandon the party in favour of the Lib Dems. The problem is that there are areas which are safe seats for either party so they mightn't take too much of a hit.

How could anyone trust the lib dems? How can you trust they won't simply prop up another Tory rampage in the event of another hung pariamientish situation?

Memnoch · 18-04-2017 05:14PM

awec wrote: »

This is just a bizarre approach for any political party to take.

Perhaps so, but not for a movement to save democracy in the UK.

awec · 18-04-2017 05:16PM

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Jayop · 18-04-2017 05:23PM

Memnoch wrote: »

How could anyone trust the lib dems? How can you trust they won't simply prop up another Tory rampage in the event of another hung pariamientish situation?

The only possible way they'll be in government would be if by some miracle there could be a lab, lib Dem, snp coalition.

Jayop · 18-04-2017 05:29PM

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/18/theresa-may-rules-out-participating-in-tv-debates-before-election

I see May has already ruled out appearing on a TV debate before the election. This to me is an affront to democracy. Hopefully the BBC and the rest have the balls to empty chair her.

jimmycrackcorm · 18-04-2017 05:29PM

Memnoch wrote:

The choice thus presented is to elect representatives bought by one oligarch or the other. Not to elect people to represent the actual electorate.

I think Corbyn is an example of someone bought by votes. Labour membership surged to vote for him as leader when he doesn't actually represent the people who by and large vote labour.

He is the reason why labour are suffering, the noose around their neck. Purple want the center left not the Looney left. They've seen enough from watching benefits street and Jeremy Kyle to say they don't want a leader bringing everyone down to that level of equality.

Calina · 18-04-2017 05:39PM

Memnoch wrote: »

Perhaps so, but not for a movement to save democracy in the UK.

Jeremy Corbyn cannot save democracy in the UK. The gaps are not his to fill. He cannot do anything about the general level of media literacy or, indeed, the delivery of media to the UK. He does not have a message which resonates with the population as a whole.

The whole point of this is that he needs to get elected. For anyone to make any serious cultural changes in the UK, they have to attain power.

He has demonstrated no understanding of this need. He has demonstrated no interest in winning the hearts and minds of the electorate at large. He appears to me to be content to continue to lead a small minority of the UK electorate but not the country as a whole.

There is no point in making noise about aspiring to save democracy if you cannot move your sorry ass to win elections. Support for the Labour Party amongst the electorate at large has been falling, and in light of Corbyn's lukewarm support for remaining in the EU, it is clear he is at odds with a lot of his core electorate. 67% of Labour voters voted to remain in the EU. He has whipped the PLP into supporting the Article 50 bill without getting any serious concessions on exit negotiations.

My expectation for this election is that the Labour Party will lose a load of seats to the Tories, the Tories will lose a bunch of seats to the Lib Dems and really the only question is which members of her party is May hoping to lose with this election. As far as I can see, this election is for the reconfiguration of Tory representation in Westminster, and potentially even in the Cabinet. I mean she's not going to have to fire Boris Johnson if he somehow loses his seat.

2017 UK General Election - 8th June

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