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Will there ever be a time where children's school homework be abolished?

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    #62
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,171 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    josip wrote: »
    Lots. For example they willingly pay for drinkable water and a lot more than we would have had to.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/irish-water-charges-cheapest-in-europe-under-revised-package-1.2007413

    Why does every discussion invariably descend to "well, <Scandinavian country>/Finland/Netherlands do it this way, so why don't we?"
    I've lived for 3 years in 3 of those countries and spent reasonable time in all 5.
    Whilst there are some attractive/admirable aspects to their society and living standards, there are many aspects I would rather not adopt.

    The answer to the "why don't we...?" question (if that was in fact the question, which it isn't) would be because they appear to be getting better results and this may be the reason why.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #63
    josip
    Registered Users Posts: 13,704 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    The answer to the "why don't we...?" question (if that was in fact the question, which it isn't) would be because they appear to be getting better results and this may be the reason why.

    But maybe the reason their children are doing better is because they start and finish their summer holidays almost a month earlier (04-06-2017 11-08-2017) ?
    Should we copy that as well?


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    #64
    josip
    Registered Users Posts: 13,704 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Or maybe, just maybe, the Finish performance is influenced more by the average class size than whether they do homework in the evenings with their poor overworked parents?
    What do the Education Experts here think of that crazy hypothesis?

    http://www.oecd.org/edu/skills-beyond-school/EDIF%202012--N9%20FINAL.pdf
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/primary-school-class-size-among-highest-in-europe-404713.html


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    #65
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,171 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    josip wrote: »
    Or maybe, just maybe, the Finish performance is influenced more by the average class size than whether they do homework in the evenings with their poor overworked parents?
    What do the Education Experts here think of that crazy hypothesis?

    http://www.oecd.org/edu/skills-beyond-school/EDIF%202012--N9%20FINAL.pdf
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/primary-school-class-size-among-highest-in-europe-404713.html
    josip wrote: »
    But maybe the reason their children are doing better is because they start and finish their summer holidays almost a month earlier (04-06-2017 11-08-2017) ?
    Should we copy that as well?

    Both very very possible. I think it's a bit unfair to imply that I'm of the opinion that we should "copy" every aspect of another country's education system simply because it's more successful statistically. Especially when I stated that there was no direct coorealtion, just that it might be worth checking out.
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    The answer to the "why don't we...?" question (if that was in fact the question, which it isn't) would be because they appear to be getting better results and this may be the reason why.


    So again: would these ideas be worth trying here? If the answer is "no" because of alleged cultrual differences (which is a point you didnt make, I know) then you're going to have come up with a much bigger cultural difference then drinking bottled water if you want to make an argument for it.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #66
    LirW
    Registered Users Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭LirW


    Luggnuts wrote: »
    Where do you draw the line? "They're teenagers they need to express themselves. They're 10 year olds they need to be out running around. They're 6 year olds they should be enjoying their childhood rather than developing their young and fertile brains." Tell me one detrimental ramification of homework.

    I can just talk about my own experience in my last years of school (again, it wasn't Ireland): In my class there was a huge problem with students that didn't sleep enough. Going to sleep around midnight and 1, getting up around 6 to catch the train to catch the train to town. I do not really see where this is beneficial to the performance of students in the long run.

    Why does it have to be such a vast amount of work given over a very short time span that you spend hours each day after school on your desk? I'm not talking about primary here, mainly secondary close to leaving cert.
    Routine and repeating is extremely important, I'd never disagree with that. What bothers me is the amount of work in many cases which is too much in my opinion. No, I honestly do not see the point in having teens just doing homework hours and hours a day until they go to bed, especially since homework does not equal studying in preparation for exams.
    I'd say more quality than quantity here.


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    #67
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #68
    josip
    Registered Users Posts: 13,704 ✭✭✭✭josip


    LirW wrote: »
    I can just talk about my own experience in my last years of school (again, it wasn't Ireland): In my class there was a huge problem with students that didn't sleep enough. Going to sleep around midnight and 1, getting up around 6 to catch the train to catch the train to town. I do not really see where this is beneficial to the performance of students in the long run.
    ...

    Was the bigger problem in your school the distances you and some of the others had to travel to get there or the amount of homework.
    How many hours did you spend traveling in each direction versus doing homework?


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    #69
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    josip wrote: »
    Or maybe, just maybe, the Finish performance is influenced more by the average class size than whether they do homework in the evenings with their poor overworked parents?
    What do the Education Experts here think of that crazy hypothesis?

    http://www.oecd.org/edu/skills-beyond-school/EDIF%202012--N9%20FINAL.pdf
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/primary-school-class-size-among-highest-in-europe-404713.html

    John Hattie carried out a meta analysis of education research and attributed an 'effect size' to various factors.

    Homework 0.29
    Class size 0.21

    Homework has a greater effect on attainment than class size.


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    #70
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,637 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Finland does not have any homework, and the kids turn out to be VERY successful.

    I think parents have enough going on with working fulltime, getting home in the traffic, getting the dinner on and then having to sit down and do homework WTF? Not to mention the kids doing a near full time working day aswell with homework. Too much already.

    Anyway...

    http://www.bbc.com/news/education-37716005

    You're quite mistaken if you believe children in Finland don't have some additional schoolwork most days. They do.

    Teachers don't give out 'Homework', the way we'd all think of it, but individual assignments/projects/exercises to address the individual educational needs of the child in question. On occasion there will be class assignments but that's not the norm, the opposite to the way it's done in Ireland.

    It's expected of parents (most of whom are well educated themselves in Finland) to work with their child independently to address any specific problem areas. If help is needed, it's given to them. This is all agreed and reviewed during the 6 annual parent/teacher meetings which are typical in Finnish schools.

    So, it's not typical 'homework', but there's still plenty of work to be done at home for Finnish school children.


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    #71
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    josip wrote: »
    Or maybe, just maybe, the Finish performance is influenced more by the average class size than whether they do homework in the evenings with their poor overworked parents?
    What do the Education Experts here think of that crazy hypothesis?

    http://www.oecd.org/edu/skills-beyond-school/EDIF%202012--N9%20FINAL.pdf
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/primary-school-class-size-among-highest-in-europe-404713.html

    Irish secondary schools have a pupil teacher ratio of 20:1. Finnish secondary schools have a ratio of 13:1.

    So for a school of 400 students in Ireland that's 20 teachers, in Finland it's 31. So I can only assume they have smaller classes overall which gives more one to one time to each student. Finnish teachers are required to have a masters to teach. It's a highly sought after job in Finland. It's also a well respected job. The Hdip here is now a masters qualification, and while teaching is still a popular choice in Ireland, teachers as part of the public sector gets an awful bashing. There are plenty of threads on here that do just that.

    But what I would ask is, from this Finnish education system that is often lauded as being the best in the world, where is all of the industry, creativity etc coming out of Finland. A good education doesn't necessarily mean you have to go and make millions, but I would imagine that it would translate at some level in the world of business, engineering, science, music, sport, art etc. Beyond Nokia I personally can't name a single company that has international recognition that is of Finnish origin. Maybe we're not doing so bad after all.


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    #72
    josip
    Registered Users Posts: 13,704 ✭✭✭✭josip


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Beyond Nokia I personally can't name a single company that has international recognition that is of Finnish origin. Maybe we're not doing so bad after all.

    Ever play Angry Birds? :)


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    #73
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,171 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Irish secondary schools have a pupil teacher ratio of 20:1. Finnish secondary schools have a ratio of 13:1.

    So for a school of 400 students in Ireland that's 20 teachers, in Finland it's 31. So I can only assume they have smaller classes overall which gives more one to one time to each student. Finnish teachers are required to have a masters to teach. It's a highly sought after job in Finland. It's also a well respected job. The Hdip here is now a masters qualification, and while teaching is still a popular choice in Ireland, teachers as part of the public sector gets an awful bashing. There are plenty of threads on here that do just that.
    I think you may have hit on something there. We all knowwhat the average joe.ie thinks of teachers here...
    But what I would ask is, from this Finnish education system that is often lauded as being the best in the world, where is all of the industry, creativity etc coming out of Finland. A good education doesn't necessarily mean you have to go and make millions, but I would imagine that it would translate at some level in the world of business, engineering, science, music, sport, art etc. Beyond Nokia I personally can't name a single company that has international recognition that is of Finnish origin. Maybe we're not doing so bad after all.

    How do you know it doesn't? Just because they aren;t world-renowed doesn;t mean they're not successful.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #74
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,637 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Irish secondary schools have a pupil teacher ratio of 20:1. Finnish secondary schools have a ratio of 13:1.

    So for a school of 400 students in Ireland that's 20 teachers, in Finland it's 31. So I can only assume they have smaller classes overall which gives more one to one time to each student. Finnish teachers are required to have a masters to teach. It's a highly sought after job in Finland. It's also a well respected job. The Hdip here is now a masters qualification, and while teaching is still a popular choice in Ireland, teachers as part of the public sector gets an awful bashing. There are plenty of threads on here that do just that.

    But what I would ask is, from this Finnish education system that is often lauded as being the best in the world, where is all of the industry, creativity etc coming out of Finland. A good education doesn't necessarily mean you have to go and make millions, but I would imagine that it would translate at some level in the world of business, engineering, science, music, sport, art etc. Beyond Nokia I personally can't name a single company that has international recognition that is of Finnish origin. Maybe we're not doing so bad after all.

    Fiskars knives/blades/axes etc
    F-Secure anti-virus
    Kone elevators and cranes
    Nokian tyres
    UPM biofuels
    Neste biofuels/oil
    Honka timber building and houses
    Tikkurilla paints
    Valmet/Valtra tractors and machinery
    Wartsila marine engines
    Suunto HRM/sports watches
    Polar HRM/sports watches
    Rovio Angry Birds etc
    Kemppi welding machinery
    Cargotec cranes, robots etc

    Depends on what industries you know I suppose. There are lots more. Genelec loudspeakers, Iitala glassware, Marimekko textilesm, Marttiini knives etc.

    There's Tikka rifles. And lots more, like SAK suppressors etc etc. World renowned, but you won't know of them if it's not of interest to you.

    How about Linux O/S?

    The list can go on and on and on.


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    #75
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    josip wrote: »
    Ever play Angry Birds? :)

    Didn't know it was Finnish
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    I think you may have hit on something there. We all knowwhat the average joe.ie thinks of teachers here...



    How do you know it doesn't? Just because they aren;t world-renowed doesn;t mean they're not successful.


    Not suggesting they're not successful. That would be to suggest that Finland has no home grown industry. Just suggesting that on a law of averages that if you have a certain number of homegrown industries that some of them will grow to a point where they are internationally recognised by the average joe on the street.
    JayZeus wrote: »
    Fiskars knives/blades/axes etc
    F-Secure anti-virus
    Kone elevators and cranes
    Nokian tyres
    UPM biofuels
    Neste biofuels/oil
    Honka timber building and houses
    Tikkurilla paints
    Valmet/Valtra tractors and machinery
    Wartsila marine engines
    Suunto HRM/sports watches
    Polar HRM/sports watches
    Rovio Angry Birds etc
    Kemppi welding machinery
    Cargotec cranes, robots etc

    Depends on what industries you know I suppose. There are lots more. Genelec loudspeakers, Iitala glassware, Marimekko textilesm, Marttiini knives etc.



    Again not suggesting that successful Finnish companies don't exist, but how many of them would be known by a random sample of people? I only recognise Angry Birds off that list.


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    #76
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    JayZeus wrote: »
    Fiskars knives/blades/axes etc
    F-Secure anti-virus
    Kone elevators and cranes
    Nokian tyres
    UPM biofuels
    Neste biofuels/oil
    Honka timber building and houses
    Tikkurilla paints
    Valmet/Valtra tractors and machinery
    Wartsila marine engines
    Suunto HRM/sports watches
    Polar HRM/sports watches
    Rovio Angry Birds etc
    Kemppi welding machinery
    Cargotec cranes, robots etc

    Depends on what industries you know I suppose. There are lots more. Genelec loudspeakers, Iitala glassware, Marimekko textilesm, Marttiini knives etc.

    There's Tikka rifles. And lots more, like SAK suppressors etc etc. World renowned, but you won't know of them if it's not of interest to you.

    How about Linux O/S?

    The list can go on and on and on.

    Those Honka Homes look really nice.I wonder how much they cost to build.


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    #77
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    Usually homework isn't done by children where the parents are too lazy or busy to actually sit down with the kids and be a part of their education
    The children are usually less happy in themselves and this manifests itself in poor behaviour
    You can guess how those children generally do in later life


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    #78
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #79
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,637 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Yeah, maybe it is. Torvalds is Finnish-American. I understand he was studying at the technology university in Helsinki at the time he wrote the first O/S kernel for Linux. There's a strong enough connection there to warrant at least a mention.


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    #80
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,765 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    Usually homework isn't done by children where the parents are too lazy or busy to actually sit down with the kids and be a part of their education
    The children are usually less happy in themselves and this manifests itself in poor behaviour
    You can guess how those children generally do in later life

    its strange that - my daughter who is now 20 , couldnt stand homework, there were tears and tantrums, hard job to get her to do it, and hated maths .... however she is now studying on a course in AIT and doing spreadsheets and business studies and talking about running her own business - i guess she dont fall into that particular generalisation you speak of ...


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    #81
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #82
    MRnotlob606
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,642 ✭✭✭MRnotlob606


    GLaDOS wrote: »
    Teaching kids to work by themselves and manage time is hardly a bad thing.

    Nothing wrong with homework.

    Why manage time? isn't playing around just being a child? not a good thing?
    Finns have abolished homework and they have probably the best education system in the world.

    I think the usual mantra about homework is bull.


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    #83
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    I think we should abolish homework and try to make school more like working life. All the education system in Ireland suceeds in doing is setting children up for the next stage in education and not working life. I think the school day in primary is much too short what job other than primay school work 9-2.30 I would make 9-3.15 or so and put a more structured learning in place. Ban single sex schools as men and women operate in the work and uniforms as their outdated, expensive and not used outside of the school setting most other countries dont have them and get on fine. Summer, easter and christmas holidays are far too long and need to be shortened.


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    #84
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I think we should abolish homework and try to make school more like working life. All the education system in Ireland suceeds in doing is setting children up for the next stage in education and not working life. I think the school day in primary is much too short what job other than primay school work 9-2.30 I would make 9-3.15 or so and put a more structured learning in place. Ban single sex schools as men and women operate in the work and uniforms as their outdated, expensive and not used outside of the school setting most other countries dont have them and get on fine. Summer, easter and christmas holidays are far too long and need to be shortened.

    Are you the minister for Education or something?


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    #85
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,637 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I know all of that. We're both entitled to our own views, but at the end of the day, Linux originated in Finland, in a Finnish university, created by a Finnish citizen. It's worth mentioning IMHO and I politely suggest you view it in the context of this thread and more specifically in the context of answering a question raised by another poster.


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    #86
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I think we should abolish homework and try to make school more like working life. All the education system in Ireland suceeds in doing is setting children up for the next stage in education and not working life. I think the school day in primary is much too short what job other than primay school work 9-2.30 I would make 9-3.15 or so and put a more structured learning in place. Ban single sex schools as men and women operate in the work and uniforms as their outdated, expensive and not used outside of the school setting most other countries dont have them and get on fine. Summer, easter and christmas holidays are far too long and need to be shortened.

    Yeah.Turn every child into a mindless robot chained to a job before they even become adults.Thats the way to improve things.


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    #87
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Finland has the least homework hours in the OECD and some of the best results (only behind South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore and Hong Kong globally I believe), and also approach education in a far less rigidly structured fashion. The answer probably is not getting rid of homework altogether as maybe more importantly than helping a teacher gauge where a student really is at (there probably are other ways around this that we have just not figured out yet), it teaches kids some personal responsibility at a young age.

    **EDIT: re a post a few above mine - I'm pretty sure they have not abolished homework, just that it is significantly less than other countries.

    The Finnish model of less homework might be productive in this sense as it makes those young people less likely to feel overwhelmed by, or resentful of, that responsibility moving forward. I remember having a teacher in 2nd class who gave us 3, 4, 5 hours homework almost every single day. Needless to say, most of us grew to f***ing hate homework from that point on :pac: ! In third class we had a much younger teacher who gave less homework and put more emphasis on creative work, and if I recall (it was a long time ago) peoples attitudes to homework as well as their likelihood of having completed it went up quite a bit. It was a smaller school, so we were all in the one classroom, e.g. it wasn't different kids from 2nd to 3rd class.

    Either way, with how fast the world is changing these days (one example it probably being more important already to be able to think critically and filter the good information from the bad, whereas obtaining information is as easy as can be), education needs to be able to adapt and adjust as well and personally I really like the approach Finland are taking.


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    #88
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,171 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    Yeah.Turn every child into a mindless robot chained to a job before they even become adults.Thats the way to improve things.

    Didnt you once tell me you thought children should be denied any chance to express themselves while being educated? Isn't that the same thing?

    (Or was that last post genuine? Sometimes I misread sarcasm...)

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #89
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,716 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Back in the 60s I never got any homework at primary school

    Even at secondary school I never did any homework at school - used to finish the maths lesson in about 15 mins and spend the next 45 doing my other homework. Even when it came to exams I basically crammed in the night before

    None of this ever did me any harm (although I did find things relatively easy at school), and I personally think homework creates a far too competitive environment at school with different schools competing to deliver more and more on the academic front with less attention given to more practical life skills. There's definitely a place for academics, but we need a workforce with a wide range of skills and academic achievement is not the be all and end all


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    #90
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,765 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    I personally think schools are not teaching the right subjects most of the time - and yes I know a lot wont agree with me , but it is my personal opinion.

    Schools (secondary) should be focusing more on teaching students how to be self sufficient for when they leave school , get the student clued up on how to cook properly, manage household budgets , basic repair of cars and the basics of repairing items in the home, basic first aid like cpr and all that - even basic driving lessons! and loads of other real life experiences

    instead of focusing on what happened in 1066 and pythogaruses and other useless ****e to loads of students that most probably wont use the useless subjects that are taught already in schools ... and then the homework might be that little lighter homework to be done!


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    #91
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    I personally think schools are not teaching the right subjects most of the time - and yes I know a lot wont agree with me , but it is my personal opinion.

    Schools (secondary) should be focusing more on teaching students how to be self sufficient for when they leave school , get the student clued up on how to cook properly, manage household budgets , basic repair of cars and the basics of repairing items in the home, basic first aid like cpr and all that - even basic driving lessons! and loads of other real life experiences

    instead of focusing on what happened in 1066 and pythogaruses and other useless ****e to loads of students that most probably wont use the useless subjects that are taught already in schools ... and then the homework might be that little lighter homework to be done!

    Have you ever considered passing on some of these life skills to your kids yourself instead of expecting schools to do absolutely everything?


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