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BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

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Comments

  • #2072
    kiaronh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 276 ✭✭kiaronh


    magentis wrote: »
    Ah,come on now lads can ye not see the wood for the trees?

    The reason for the loss figures emailed to the media is to drive down the pay and conditions of the workforce.

    The dogs on the street know that.

    That is indeed what the company said.

    BE are losing money and need to reduce their costs. They have published the figure so that people can see how much money they are losing.

    Do you have a better solution for BE to avoid insolvency?


  • #2073
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,046 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    magentis wrote: »
    The holding company has a lot to answer for,this is a key issue in current talks.
    Everyone and everything is to blame except the staff eh?


  • #2074
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,905 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    Really though, why would a young person join a union? When you look at what happened during the financial crisis, the only way to get the Unions on board with the necessary cuts to public pay, was to absolutely hammer the earning potential of new and future hires. The only reason for this was to protect the inflated earnings of older members and senior people.

    Solidarity me bollocks. I would never join a public sector union.

    A lot of CIE workers not just BE but DB and IE aswell would be the sons of employees who are the sons of employees too who were members of the NBRU/NBU or SIPTU/ITGWU I would imagine. I always the CIE group of companies are all closed shops anyway?


  • #2075
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,399 ✭✭✭eeguy


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    Really though, why would a young person join a union? When you look at what happened during the financial crisis, the only way to get the Unions on board with the necessary cuts to public pay, was to absolutely hammer the earning potential of new and future hires. .

    Plenty of reasons to join a union, especially if you have a low or no skill job, are easily replaceable (BE drivers, factory workers) have skills are non-transferrable (LUAS drivers, teachers), or are regularly mistreated by your employer (medical staff).

    There is a definite place for unions in this country to stand up for workers rights, but unfortunately the only actions SIPTU et.al are taking recently is on behalf of well paid workers against supposedly soft government targets.


  • #2076
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    eeguy wrote: »
    Plenty of reasons to join a union, especially if you have a low or no skill job, are easily replaceable (BE drivers, factory workers) have skills are non-transferrable (LUAS drivers, teachers), or are regularly mistreated by your employer (medical staff).

    There is a definite place for unions in this country to stand up for workers rights, but unfortunately the only actions SIPTU et.al are taking recently is on behalf of well paid workers against supposedly soft government targets.

    I'm a public service worker. I'd never join a union. Waste of money.


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  • #2077
    kiaronh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 276 ✭✭kiaronh


    magentis wrote: »
    Yes,
    It looses money in 2014,15,16,17 due to the fact that private operators are allowed to cherry pick lucrative direct routes,while bus eireann serves the towns and villages that need to be served.PSO routes under a different name.

    So why aren't BE using their economies of scale? Their private competitors need to turn a profit, BE only need to break even.

    Edit: And why are they losing money on Expressway if these routes are so lucrative?

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0111/844179-bus-eireann/
    Indeed wage costs are a major talking point,one has to ask for answers when the executive+"manager" salaries and benefits are looked at vs contribution to the company bottom line.

    Their current management team is trying to save 6 million a year to stay solvent. I know it's nice to pretend that you can just cut all that from managers pay, but that isn't going to add up. Which is why the unions have failed to come up with a proposal to even save 0.5 million.


  • #2078
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,573 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    If these talks that are ongoing break down then I'd say the examiner we'll be called in.

    At this stage though BÉ as we currently know it is gone. What I expect to see is a huge severance package for long serving staff followed by cuts to overtime. As these union's tend to be stocked full of lifers they will be bought off and the junior drivers will take the hit.

    Happens every time - so much so I wonder why junior staff bother with Unions at all.

    because unions provide a great service. the problem is people won't work with them and then complain they get nowhere.
    quadrifoglio verde wrote: »
    Because the union heads in the company convince the newbies to join. They literally gang up on you until you do

    no they don't. that doesn't happen. you will be asked if you wish to join and the benefits will be sold to you. after that, it's up to you. nobody is forced to join or ganged upon.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #2079
    n97 mini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,991 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    I'm a public service worker. I'd never join a union. Waste of money.

    Are the vast majority of your colleagues unionised? If so you're riding on their coat tails.


  • #2080
    n97 mini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,991 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    eeguy wrote: »
    There is a definite place for unions in this country to stand up for workers rights

    No, terms and conditions. The unions themselves recognise this. Workers rights are already protected in law. We've come a long way since 1913.


  • #2081
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,573 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    n97 mini wrote: »
    No, terms and conditions. The unions themselves recognise this. Workers rights are already protected in law. We've come a long way since 1913.


    no no insuring workers rights are upheld would also be part of the unions work

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • #2082
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 20,713 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    end of the road wrote: »

    because unions provide a great service. the problem is people won't work with them and then complain they get nowhere..
    Incorrect again it a protection racket. The worst of Irish in a lot of the PS management buy into it.
    end of the road wrote: »
    no they don't. that doesn't happen. you will be asked if you wish to join and the benefits will be sold to you. after that, it's up to you. nobody is forced to join or ganged upon.

    Incorrect again it a bit like Michael Corleone tells his girlfriend about Jonny Fontaine manager. He was made an offer he could not refuse. His signature on the contract .........Or his brains

    Slava Ukrainii



  • #2083
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,051 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    n97 mini wrote: »
    No, terms and conditions. The unions themselves recognise this. Workers rights are already protected in law. We've come a long way since 1913.

    The union is there to make sure that your rights are being met..


  • #2084
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,769 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    The union is there to make sure that your rights are being met..

    Not something I've have trouble doing myself.


  • #2085
    n97 mini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,991 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    end of the road wrote: »
    no no insuring workers rights are upheld would also be part of the unions work
    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    The union is there to make sure that your rights are being met..

    If you believe that, you've swallowed the union line. Your rights are enshrined in law, any decent employer knows this... the rest get a day in court.


  • #2086
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    L1011 wrote: »
    Not something I've have trouble doing myself.

    I'm sure the LRC will be only delighted to see you rocking up their door without a negotiating license


  • #2087
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,769 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Bambi wrote: »
    I'm sure the LRC will be only delighted to see you rocking up their door without a negotiating license

    I can resort to the courts, thanks

    Also, the LRC don't exist anymore. The WRC are perfectly happy to deal with single employees, as that is part of their remit. Spreading outdated disinformation is a speciality of many unions in Ireland though.


  • #2088
    kiaronh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 276 ✭✭kiaronh


    L1011 wrote: »
    I can resort to the courts, thanks

    Also, the LRC don't exist anymore. The WRC are perfectly happy to deal with single employees, as that is part of their remit. Spreading outdated disinformation is a speciality of many unions in Ireland though.

    Browsing the WRC website they give a pretty clear summary of what they do and how you make a complaint as an individual. CI also have a nice explanation of how it works.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/enforcement_and_redress/labour_relations_commission.html


  • #2089
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,046 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    end of the road wrote: »
    no they don't. that doesn't happen. you will be asked if you wish to join and the benefits will be sold to you. after that, it's up to you. nobody is forced to join or ganged upon.
    How do you know?


  • #2090
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 11,911 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    magentis wrote: »
    Yes,
    It looses money in 2014,15,16,17 due to the fact that private operators are allowed to cherry pick lucrative direct routes,while bus eireann serves the towns and villages that need to be served.PSO routes under a different name.

    The reason that the Bus Eireann Commercial arm services little places rather than being non stop is because of poor management not because of the fact they are forced to, this is yet another false narrative being pushed around by the unions.

    Commercial Intercity routes between the main cities and Towns is regulated by the NTA who have a duty in law to operate on behalf of the public under the Transport Regulation Act. Their brief requires them to do these without favour to any operator, including Bus Eireann Expressway or any other commercial operator without the fear of what will happen if they don't give a party what they want.

    For intercity routes there are two types of licenses
    * Interurban - Intercity rotues that stop at many towns en-route
    * Interurban Express - Limited Stop / Motorway Services or non stop services. (Non stop or very limited Dublin-Cork-Waterford etc)

    The regulator allows two licenses of each type on every corridor which according to guidelines should be seperated by 30 minutes from that of any other operator which has the same type of license for the same route. These licenses are issued on a first come first issued basis and the first two operators to apply get the license, after both are gone no more can apply.

    It is very important to note that Bus Eireann Expressway is considered a commercial operator and has the same rights as other commercial operators with this and they have no better or worse rights than other companies when it comes to cancelling or start routes, adding or removing stops or changing times of their buses etc. Note that Interurban and Interurban Express service are considered different services.

    So why is Bus Eireann Expressway not operating hardly any express routes? Essentially commercial management of the company has been poor, when the motorway network was build BE management felt that there would not be demand for express or non stop services and had no interest in them and is widely believed to think that they would not be viable and would be a waste of money.

    Other operators such as Citylink, GoBus, Aircoach etc felt differently and applied for the licenses and made the services a success and acording to information released by the National Transport Authority, managed to achieve a modal shift to public transport that in some cases such as Dublin to Cork, the non stop services from private enterprise resulted in up to a 60% increase of passengers taking public transport on the route.

    The problem is that BE were late to this party since they by the time BE realised they made a mistake in not applying for the routes, all of the licenses on the main corridors were taken up,. Because of this Bus Eireann cannot register motorway services on a lot of routes - essentially they missed the boat.


  • #2091
    quadrifoglio verde
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,669 ✭✭✭quadrifoglio verde


    end of the road wrote: »


    no they don't. that doesn't happen. you will be asked if you wish to join and the benefits will be sold to you. after that, it's up to you. nobody is forced to join or ganged upon.

    Well I can tell you from personal experience that the shop steward in a company I used to work for hassled me every day that I worked with him over not being in the union.
    That I was disrespecting my work colleagues.
    That I was allowing the company (who were paying me quite well) to walk all over me. That I was a scab. I was 18. It didn't stop until I joined at 20.

    I've no respect for unions in this country. I hope that just like Irish fertiliser, they go the way of the dodo.


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  • #2092
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,051 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    quadrifoglio verde wrote: »
    Well I can tell you from personal experience that the shop steward in a company I used to work for hassled me every day that I worked with him over not being in the union.
    That I was disrespecting my work colleagues.
    That I was allowing the company (who were paying me quite well) to walk all over me. That I was a scab. I was 18. It didn't stop until I joined at 20.

    I've no respect for unions in this country. I hope that just like Irish fertiliser, they go the way of the dodo.

    Ye, that's out of order. It should be your own free choice. The funny thing is though that anything they would have fought for and got, you would have got as well :-D.


  • #2093
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,051 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    A lot of CIE workers not just BE but DB and IE aswell would be the sons of employees who are the sons of employees too who were members of the NBRU/NBU or SIPTU/ITGWU I would imagine. I always the CIE group of companies are all closed shops anyway?
    You would be suprised as to how many has no relations at all working there.


  • #2094
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,051 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    L1011 wrote: »
    Not something I've have trouble doing myself.

    That's fair enough if it works for you.


  • #2095
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,051 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    n97 mini wrote: »
    If you believe that, you've swallowed the union line. Your rights are enshrined in law, any decent employer knows this... the rest get a day in court.

    Nope, remember few years ago when builders were being made redundant and then the employer hired 2 foreign nationals at a cheaper rate? Well, that wasn't allowed but they got away with it.


  • #2096
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    horseburger wrote: »
    There's the wonderful Irish "community spirit" that bk speaks of!!:)
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103151991&postcount=2023

    Funny you should mention it. In that very post I mention that there are some things about Irish culture that I really dislike and in fact what BE staff are doing is exactly what I was talking about.

    Partly in Irish culture we have this idea that it is ok not to pay taxes or to squeeze more money out of the government and rip off "the man"!

    Of course this stems from the days when the government was a foreign government in England, so ripping of the man was ripping off a foreign invader and understandably culturally acceptable.

    But that is no longer the case. Our government is our own government, democratically elected by the people of Ireland and representing the people of Ireland.

    These days when someone is ripping off "the man" they aren't taking money out of the pockets of British people, they are instead taking money out of the pockets of your fellow Irish people, out of the pockets of your neighbour and friends.

    Such carry on would never be accepted in for example Scandinavian countries, people dodging taxes, looking for unjustified pay raises, etc. would be considered complete pariah and would be outcast in their society.

    This is a part of Irish culture that we need to change. We have to learn that our government is OUR government and that screwing over the man, is screwing over your neighbours. And that we all need to work together to build a better society.

    If BE gets bailed out by the government, then that just means less money the government puts into education, healthcare, etc.


  • #2097
    MOH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,472 ✭✭✭MOH


    magentis wrote: »
    Ah,come on now lads can ye not see the wood for the trees?

    The reason for the loss figures emailed to the media is to drive down the pay and conditions of the workforce.

    The dogs on the street know that.

    The dogs on the street might believe that, but then again they're dogs. They're not known for their rational, fact-based reasoning.

    The reason for the loss figures emailed to the media is that they made a loss.

    You do know there's a Conspiracy Theories forum?


  • #2098
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,573 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    quadrifoglio verde wrote: »
    Well I can tell you from personal experience that the shop steward in a company I used to work for hassled me every day that I worked with him over not being in the union.
    That I was disrespecting my work colleagues.
    That I was allowing the company (who were paying me quite well) to walk all over me. That I was a scab. I was 18. It didn't stop until I joined at 20.

    I've no respect for unions in this country. I hope that just like Irish fertiliser, they go the way of the dodo.


    unions are going nowhere. assuming your story is true then why didn't you take it up with management.
    bk wrote: »
    Funny you should mention it. In that very post I mention that there are some things about Irish culture that I really dislike and in fact what BE staff are doing is exactly what I was talking about.

    Partly in Irish culture we have this idea that it is ok not to pay taxes or to squeeze more money out of the government and rip off "the man"!

    Of course this stems from the days when the government was a foreign government in England, so ripping of the man was ripping off a foreign invader and understandably culturally acceptable.

    But that is no longer the case. Our government is our own government, democratically elected by the people of Ireland and representing the people of Ireland.

    These days when someone is ripping off "the man" they aren't taking money out of the pockets of British people, they are instead taking money out of the pockets of your fellow Irish people, out of the pockets of your neighbour and friends.

    Such carry on would never be accepted in for example Scandinavian countries, people dodging taxes, looking for unjustified pay raises, etc. would be considered complete pariah and would be outcast in their society.

    This is a part of Irish culture that we need to change. We have to learn that our government is OUR government and that screwing over the man, is screwing over your neighbours. And that we all need to work together to build a better society.

    If BE gets bailed out by the government, then that just means less money the government puts into education, healthcare, etc.

    because Scandinavian countries have governments who work for all, rather then the government, for big business and party donators. when government are up to all sorts then you cannot be surprised that some of the people think the same is exceptible. even if bailing out be was to happen, it wouldn't mean less money for other things as chances are the money wouldn't go to those other things anyway but to something wasteful.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #2099
    n97 mini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,991 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    end of the road wrote: »
    it wouldn't mean less money for other things as chances are the money wouldn't go to those other things anyway but to something wasteful.

    Very hard to take that comment seriously.


  • #2100
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,097 ✭✭✭amcalester


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Very hard to take that comment seriously.

    We shouldn't try and stop waste because whatever we save will just be wasted.

    Makes sense.


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  • #2101
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,274 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    end of the road wrote: »
    unions are going nowhere. assuming your story is true then why didn't you take it up with management.
    So a page ago you stated as a fact that union members harassing non-members doesn't happen.
    No you're willing to entertain a poster that said they were harassed.
    You folded pretty quick there.

    Why would he report it to management?
    It would be a "your word versus his" scenario.
    There'd be a slight chance of the person being disciplined.
    And the poster would be potentially opening themselves up to bullying by the rest of his colleagues.


This discussion has been closed.
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