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BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

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Comments

  • #2012
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,829 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    FitzShane wrote: »
    I've actually heard of a woman having to give up her job, as she has no alternative way of getting to work every day. 62 year old woman cant be expected to walk or hitch hike every day.

    hmmm


  • #2013
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,051 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    Train Travel is too expensive in Ireland. On 1-3 hour journeys where buses on motorways are available they are the preferred option. It is ok if you can book in advance but if you turn up on the day and want to take a train it is expensive. You can just turn up at a bus stop and get on a bus and pay the driver. Also having to book a return for a fairly specific time is an off put as well
    Cheaper yes but you will only get on that bus if there is room.


  • #2014
    The Parish Priest.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭The Parish Priest.


    FitzShane wrote: »
    I've actually heard of a woman having to give up her job, as she has no alternative way of getting to work every day. 62 year old woman cant be expected to walk or hitch hike every day.

    That's one example of how passenger numbers will be way down even if normal services resume at BE, a lot of their rural pso routes only ever had a handful of passengers anyway, I'm sure lots of people will stick to their alternative arrangements such as car pooling now


  • #2015
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 20,713 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    devnull wrote: »
    But isn't that the plan, force up the competitions costs to make Expressway more competitive and perform financially better and push up prices?

    I should have expanded a bit about costs. If a sectioral employment order was put in place it would only effect staff labour unit cost by 5-10% at most. However legacy issue in BE such as over staffing, sick leave conditions and ethos of staff to S/L would still not change the balance in BE favour. Over staffing in clerical and bus drivers and drive to bus ratio still would be an issue. In the scheme the changes might add less than 1% to overall cost of the other operators. BE gap is much higher.
    bk wrote: »
    Also seemingly they are stopping at BE bus stops along the way to pick up as many people as they can, not just staff and in some cases they are operating back and forth all day!

    Also it seems lots of people are hitch hiking. A lady was on the radio, she lives in Youghal but works in the city, she has been hitch hiking every day and she says people have been fantastic. Every single day different people have stopped and given her a lift into the city.

    Seemingly people are just going to bus stops and cars are pulling up at them to offer lifts!

    I think this is happening accross the country. The biggest whinging is from sections with in the media and some politicians trying to make a political issue of it. Talking toa friend in Limerick he mentioned about Dublin Coach have a bendy bus on the Annacotty to city center. He says it full all the time. Its purpose before was to transfer passengers from the inter city routes into the city and allow the coaches back onto the motorway to Kerry or to turn around back to Dublin. I think it had a drop offf at UL as well. Now it a virtua urban routes with a full bendy bus of passengers.

    Yes I see that at loacl village lads have arranged lifts with people in cars instead of the bus. Some of these customers will never return to BE. Gap in finances had opend further and even when strike ends more routes will be unviable

    Slava Ukrainii



  • #2016
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,573 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    bk wrote: »
    Speaking to my parents in Cork yesterday, some interesting tidbits.

    Seemingly Apple isn't the only company who has hired in private bus companies to ferry staff. Seemingly lots of other big employers and business parks have done the same.

    Also seemingly they are stopping at BE bus stops along the way to pick up as many people as they can, not just staff and in some cases they are operating back and forth all day!

    Also it seems lots of people are hitch hiking. A lady was on the radio, she lives in Youghal but works in the city, she has been hitch hiking every day and she says people have been fantastic. Every single day different people have stopped and given her a lift into the city.

    Seemingly people are just going to bus stops and cars are pulling up at them to offer lifts!

    It is actually quiet amazing to see the people and companies in Cork pull together as a community to help one another out. It shows what true community spirit is like.

    I can't speak for the rest of the country, but certainly in Cork, any little support BE staff originally had has now completely evaporated. Worse, given the herculean effort that the private bus companies, trying their best to fill the gaps (of course paid to do so by private companies in Cork), many people are now asking why do we need BE at all? Look at the great job the privates are doing, let them operate the services in Cork.

    I think many Corkonians have long seen BE as a distant Dublin based and focused quango, with little interest in the needs of Cork. I suspect many Corkonians would be much happier if the Cork City and Commuter services were operated by private companies under the direct control of the Cork City and County Councils with input from employers in Cork and the NTA obviously. A more local run and focused service then BE offers.

    If that is how the people in the second biggest city in Ireland feel, I can only imagine what it most be like for those living in more rural parts of Ireland!

    I fear that even if the unions and management come to an agreement, that it may already be too late for BE, that the reputation is already too much damaged and that many people will be sticking to the private operators where available and will be supporting the introduction of even more private services.

    giving county councils control of anything? you are having a laugh. hno thanks.
    the people who will be supporting the introduction of more private services will be the same ones calling for re-nationalisation should it eventually come to pass that private operation is the only operation and there is no state operator. they always are the most vocal. oh and i would suggest that the amount of people you claim are giving people lifts are either half the amount, or giving people they know or know of lifts. very few people will give lifts to strangers these days. i als o presume that the busses supposibly stopping at be stops either have permission from the company, or are only stopping at shared stops.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • #2017
    n97 mini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,991 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    end of the road wrote: »
    i als o presume that the busses supposibly stopping at be stops either have permission from the company, or are only stopping at shared stops.

    Private Hire. Can stop anywhere they want. The same as I can give you a lift, at no cost to you, from any bus stop to any other bus stop.


  • #2018
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    end of the road wrote: »
    giving county councils control of anything? you are having a laugh. hno thanks.

    I can't speak for every council in the country, but I do know a lot about Cork City and County council and I have to say they are very much on top of the game and progressive.

    All you have to do is look at things like the Cork City Development plans to see how forward thinking they are. Doing forward planning for future planned transport corridors and actually backing it up with planning policies to encourage high density development along those corridors.

    Or look at the Cork City Park And Ride service which is subsidised by Cork City Council.

    In many ways I'd say the Cork Councils are actually a lot more progressive then the Dublin ones, though obviously they lack the same level of finances and resources.

    Though it wouldn't have to be just Cork City Council running it, they could set up a Cork Transport Authority (CTA), with Cork City and County Council along with the NTA and Cork Business Association all involved in managing public transport in Cork.

    It doesn't have to be private companies operating the buses, it could be Dublin Bus or a "Cork Bus company" separated out of BE, but the important point is to have more local control and managed, rather then it being managed from Busaras.
    end of the road wrote: »
    the people who will be supporting the introduction of more private services will be the same ones calling for re-nationalisation should it eventually come to pass that private operation is the only operation and there is no state operator.
    they always are the most vocal.

    Says you. As I've said previously, no one cares who is driving the bus. What is important is that they don't have a monopoly. Monopolies are bad, wheither they are private or semi-state, it doesn't matter.

    You kepp going on about how important semi-state bus services are, but I just don't see any proof of it. In fact now we are seeing the exact opposite, we almost two weeks of strikes now, we are seeing how little semi-state employees care about the public and care about offering a good service.

    In the past I've kept an open mind about what you say EOTR, but you are currently being proven so badly wrong at the moment, it isn't even funny.

    We are talking about BE here, a company who couldn't bother it's ass operating a coach between the two busiest cities in Ireland after 6pm! :mad:
    end of the road wrote: »
    oh and i would suggest that the amount of people you claim are giving people lifts are either half the amount, or giving people they know or know of lifts. very few people will give lifts to strangers these days. i als o presume that the busses supposibly stopping at be stops either have permission from the company, or are only stopping at shared stops.

    I'm shocked you would say that, have you not spent any time in rural Ireland!

    I might live in Dublin City, but I go hiking in rural Ireland most weekends and even well before this strike, it wouldn't be at all unusual for us to pick up hitch hikers if we had space in the car. maybe every second weekend or so. Teenagers getting to the next town to see their friends, backpackers, old fellas getting home from the pub. It really isn't that unusual in rural Ireland, nor is it dangerous :rolleyes:

    As for the buses, nope they are stopping by BE stops, but so what, it is a public road, not BE property, more BE nonsense thinking they own everything and get to call the shots.


  • #2019
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Cheaper yes but you will only get on that bus if there is room.

    First of all, you can book online and guarantee your seat up to one hour in advance with most companies (GoBus, CityLink, etc.) *

    Private companies will normally run extra relief coaches if demand is so high. They can roughly predict demand based on the onlnie bookings. For instance Aircoach is putting loads of extra coaches on at the moment, given the strike.

    Worst case scenario, for most routes, you only have to wait one hour for the next coach and normally you get priority boarding after the pre-booked passengers and before the other walk ons.

    Still better to book online, but given that you can book just an hour in advance on most companies and still get a great cheap fare, makes it much better then the train.

    With the train it is either book weeks in advance to get a reasonable fare or pay absolutely top dollar on the day either online or walk up. With bus you can guarantee a seat up to 1 hour in advance and still get a cheap fare.

    * Aircoach is the one exception, you have to book before 5pm the previous day, it is my one complaint about their service.


  • #2020
    n97 mini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,991 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    bk wrote: »
    I can't speak for every council in the country, but I do know a lot about Cork City and County council and I have to say they are very much on top of the game and progressive.

    Every city or state in the US has its own transit authority. Joined up thinking based on local knowledge and needs. Makes perfect sense.


  • #2021
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭horseburger


    bk wrote: »
    I can't speak for every council in the country, but I do know a lot about Cork City and County council and I have to say they are very much on top of the game and progressive.

    All you have to do is look at things like the Cork City Development plans to see how forward thinking they are. Doing forward planning for future planned transport corridors and actually backing it up with planning policies to encourage high density development along those corridors.

    Or look at the Cork City Park And Ride service which is subsidised by Cork City Council.

    In many ways I'd say the Cork Councils are actually a lot more progressive then the Dublin ones, though obviously they lack the same level of finances and resources.

    Though it wouldn't have to be just Cork City Council running it, they could set up a Cork Transport Authority (CTA), with Cork City and County Council along with the NTA and Cork Business Association all involved in managing public transport in Cork.

    It doesn't have to be private companies operating the buses, it could be Dublin Bus or a "Cork Bus company" separated out of BE, but the important point is to have more local control and managed, rather then it being managed from Busaras.



    Says you. As I've said previously, no one cares who is driving the bus. What is important is that they don't have a monopoly. Monopolies are bad, wheither they are private or semi-state, it doesn't matter.

    You kepp going on about how important semi-state bus services are, but I just don't see any proof of it. In fact now we are seeing the exact opposite, we almost two weeks of strikes now, we are seeing how little semi-state employees care about the public and care about offering a good service.

    In the past I've kept an open mind about what you say EOTR, but you are currently being proven so badly wrong at the moment, it isn't even funny.

    We are talking about BE here, a company who couldn't bother it's ass operating a coach between the two busiest cities in Ireland after 6pm! :mad:



    I'm shocked you would say that, have you not spent any time in rural Ireland!

    I might live in Dublin City, but I go hiking in rural Ireland most weekends and even well before this strike, it wouldn't be at all unusual for us to pick up hitch hikers if we had space in the car. maybe every second weekend or so. Teenagers getting to the next town to see their friends, backpackers, old fellas getting home from the pub. It really isn't that unusual in rural Ireland, nor is it dangerous :rolleyes:

    As for the buses, nope they are stopping by BE stops, but so what, it is a public road, not BE property, more BE nonsense thinking they own everything and get to call the shots.

    On the issue of hitching in rural areas, I think, that drivers are really only likely to stop for someone hitching, if they know that person, and if they don't know that person, they are far, far, less likely, to stop.

    But it's nice to know that when I'm an "old fella", coming home from the pub, thumbing at the side of the road, in pitch black darkness, at 1.30am in the morning, with no street lighting, that you'll stop and give me a lift home!:)


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  • #2022
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,905 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Every city or state in the US has its own transit authority. Joined up thinking based on local knowledge and needs. Makes perfect sense.

    It's not just the US pretty much every city in the developed world does


  • #2023
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    horseburger wrote: »
    On the issue of hitching in rural areas, I think, that drivers are really only likely to stop for someone hitching, if they know that person, and if they don't know that person, they are far, far, less likely, to stop.

    When heading hiking we have often stopped for complete strangers. Plenty of backpackers hitch through rural Ireland.

    I remember when staying in Mayo, picking up two lovely french girls backpacking and them ending up staying at the house we were renting. I also remember on the same trip getting invited to a different house party every night by the locals, where all the locals would gather and have a music session in their living room with a few beers. Amazing community in rural Mayo.

    I think perhaps some folks here living in the cities, have become some what detached from what life is actually like in the truly rural parts of Ireland!
    horseburger wrote: »
    But it's nice to know that when I'm an "old fella", coming home from the pub, thumbing at the side of the road, in pitch black darkness, at 1.30am in the morning, with no street lighting, that you'll stop and give me a lift home!:)

    I sure would, if staying in a rural part of Ireland, why wouldn't I, wouldn't you?!

    There are lots of aspects to Irish cultural that I don't like and I think hold us back and you will often hear me complain about.

    But one really good thing that I do like about Irish people is our community spirit. When times are tough, people here in Ireland will get together and help each other out.


  • #2024
    roosterman71
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,083 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Shane Ross was down in Athlone today opening the cycle greenway in the town. The BE strikers turned up for a bit of striking

    http://www.westmeathindependent.ie/news/roundup/articles/2017/04/07/4138082-ross-heckled-by-athlone-bus-workers-at-cycleway-opening/

    You can also check out Ciaran Mullooly on Twitter who was there reporting about it


  • #2025
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Thinking about it a bit more, I wonder if this strike goes on much longer, if the temporary measures could become permanent, even if the BE strike ends, at least in Cork.

    Stop and think about it. The park and ride service is paid for and run by Cork City Council, but driven by BE drivers. Since the strike started, CCC almost immediately brought in a private company to run the service.

    Apple has been given BE extra money to put more buses on the 202 route to the Apple HQ, turning the 202 from one of the worst routes in the city, to one of the most frequent. But the day after the strike started, Apple already had private companies running the route.

    Other companies and business parks have now also brought in private operators.

    And then you have the whole GoBE situation, how long until GoBus dissolves the company and starts up GoBus Cork instead?

    Even if the strike ends, how likely are these organisations to trust BE again and return to their services?

    The longer the bus strike goes on, the more likely these changes become permanent and the more likely that even if BE survives, a parallel bus services could end up operating in the city with a lot of business lost and the alternative growing stronger.


  • #2026
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    You could also describe a pilot as a low skilled job. I knowill people who have flight simulators who have done with relative ease. But being pilot has such huge responsibility which being a bus driver also has.

    No you couldnt , there is no comparison at all. A pilot is trained to deal with emergencies , that can cause a large object ( the plane ) to fall out of the air and kill everyone

    A bus driver is trained to pull over and call a tow truck

    totally different jobs and responsibilities

    a Bus driver dos not have a " huge responsibility ". He or she has " a responsibility " thats about it.


  • #2027
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    end of the road wrote: »
    giving county councils control of anything? you are having a laugh. hno thanks.
    the people who will be supporting the introduction of more private services will be the same ones calling for re-nationalisation should it eventually come to pass that private operation is the only operation and there is no state operator. they always are the most vocal. oh and i would suggest that the amount of people you claim are giving people lifts are either half the amount, or giving people they know or know of lifts. very few people will give lifts to strangers these days. i als o presume that the busses supposibly stopping at be stops either have permission from the company, or are only stopping at shared stops.

    no-one calling for Aerl Lingus to be renationalised, despite lefties telling us it would be doom and gloom etc


  • #2028
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    bk wrote: »
    Thinking about it a bit more, I wonder if this strike goes on much longer, if the temporary measures could become permanent, even if the BE strike ends, at least in Cork.

    Stop and think about it. The park and ride service is paid for and run by Cork City Council, but driven by BE drivers. Since the strike started, CCC almost immediately brought in a private company to run the service.

    Apple has been given BE extra money to put more buses on the 202 route to the Apple HQ, turning the 202 from one of the worst routes in the city, to one of the most frequent. But the day after the strike started, Apple already had private companies running the route.

    Other companies and business parks have now also brought in private operators.

    And then you have the whole GoBE situation, how long until GoBus dissolves the company and starts up GoBus Cork instead?

    Even if the strike ends, how likely are these organisations to trust BE again and return to their services?

    The longer the bus strike goes on, the more likely these changes become permanent and the more likely that even if BE survives, a parallel bus services could end up operating in the city with a lot of business lost and the alternative growing stronger.

    Th exact same thing occurred after the 90s rail strikes, Irish cement and Guiness, realised that the private trucks they contacted in in an emergency , were a better deal . After the strike , the business fell away from Irish rail to the point that nothing is shifted now.


  • #2029
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,573 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    BoatMad wrote: »
    Th exact same thing occurred after the 90s rail strikes, Irish cement and Guiness, realised that the private trucks they contacted in in an emergency , were a better deal . After the strike , the business fell away from Irish rail to the point that nothing is shifted now.

    only because they don't have to pay the actual cost of operating the service including damage, unlike with rail. trucks don't have to pay in full for the damage to the roads they cause, meaning they were a better deal. + it was government policy to shift freight to road. had they been all forced to pay the full cost then chances are they would have stuck with the rail.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #2030
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    end of the road wrote: »
    only because they don't have to pay the actual cost of operating the service including damage, unlike with rail. trucks don't have to pay in full for the damage to the roads they cause, meaning they were a better deal. + it was government policy to shift freight to road. had they been all forced to pay the full cost then chances are they would have stuck with the rail.

    thats not what happened. The strike caused two major IE freight customers to call in private trucking companies ( that they had no reason to do so up till then ) Both irish Cement and Gunniness were up to that time reasonably satisfied with IE

    The strike compromised their ability to deliver their product to their customers

    They took emergency action and they never went back

    This is because public sector transport unions ( and workers ) see NO connection between their action and the3 effect it has on their employer . They in effect see the service as irrelevant , as far as they are concerned they as in effect Civil servants and the Gov will keep paying , even if they never drive a bus again

    This notion must be now be broken , if you strike and you destroy the business that employs you MUST suffer the consequences , no strike can have no consequences for workers


  • #2031
    MOH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,472 ✭✭✭MOH


    end of the road wrote: »
    only because they don't have to pay the actual cost of operating the service including damage, unlike with rail. trucks don't have to pay in full for the damage to the roads they cause, meaning they were a better deal. + it was government policy to shift freight to road. had they been all forced to pay the full cost then chances are they would have stuck with the rail.

    No, because it was a more reliable and efficient service than IE were providing.


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  • #2032
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    MOH wrote: »
    No, because it was a more reliable and efficient service than IE were providing.

    The issue was reliability of service, not cost. IN fact rail distribution was cheaper for Guinness overall ( it wasn't as good a deal for IE )


  • #2033
    Brendan Bendar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,548 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    Just heard an excerpt from Athlone from the picket lines on RTE Drivetime

    Two things I can say

    1. Great that Ross and Boxer can see the difference between implementing stuff versus roaring for stuff to be implemented.

    2. What a load of rabble the BE picket seemed to be.

    To paraphrase one of them roaring at Moran, 'If you don't support us to continue gouging the taxpayer,you'll never get another vote from us '


    The mind boggles


  • #2034
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Brendan Bendar wrote: »
    Just heard an excerpt from Athlone from the picket lines on RTE Drivetime

    Two things I can say

    1. Great that Ross and Boxer can see the difference between implementing stuff versus roaring for stuff to be implemented.

    2. What a load of rabble the BE picket seemed to be.

    To paraphrase one of them roaring at Moran, 'If you don't support us to continue gouging the taxpayer,you'll never get another vote from us '


    The mind boggles


    "three weeks without a wage Shane ", youd think they were forced in handcuffs onto the picket by the Minister

    and by the way he's entitled to be addressed properly , being " a working class striker " doesnt excuse good manners

    bunch of muppets , almost everything they said was a mis-information


  • #2035
    quadrifoglio verde
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,669 ✭✭✭quadrifoglio verde


    Brendan Bendar wrote: »
    Just heard an excerpt from Athlone from the picket lines on RTE Drivetime

    Two things I can say

    1. Great that Ross and Boxer can see the difference between implementing stuff versus roaring for stuff to be implemented.

    2. What a load of rabble the BE picket seemed to be.

    To paraphrase one of them roaring at Moran, 'If you don't support us to continue gouging the taxpayer,you'll never get another vote from us '


    The mind boggles

    It's the Irish mindset
    We all want someone else to pay for it.


  • #2036
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    quadrifoglio verde wrote: »
    It's the Irish mindset
    We all want someone else to pay for it.


    Yeah we still think the British Exchequer is running the country


  • #2037
    WomanSkirtFan8
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 768 ✭✭✭WomanSkirtFan8


    quadrifoglio verde wrote: »
    It's the Irish mindset
    We all want someone else to pay for it.

    so true. And also, nobody in this country ever seems to want to take a certain degree of responsibilty for the actions they take. :rolleyes:


  • #2038
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭horseburger


    BoatMad wrote: »
    "three weeks without a wage Shane ", youd think they were forced in handcuffs onto the picket by the Minister

    and by the way he's entitled to be addressed properly , being " a working class striker " doesnt excuse good manners

    bunch of muppets , almost everything they said was a mis-information

    There's the wonderful Irish "community spirit" that bk speaks of!!:)
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103151991&postcount=2023


  • #2039
    WomanSkirtFan8
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 768 ✭✭✭WomanSkirtFan8


    BoatMad wrote: »
    "three weeks without a wage Shane ", youd think they were forced in handcuffs onto the picket by the Minister

    and by the way he's entitled to be addressed properly , being " a working class striker " doesnt excuse good manners

    bunch of muppets , almost everything they said was a mis-information

    Absolutely. Well you know what they say guys:rolleyes:, "give a person enough rope and they'll hang themselves."


  • #2040
    n97 mini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,991 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    quadrifoglio verde wrote: »
    It's the Irish mindset
    We all want someone else to pay for it.

    One poster on here claims it's our duty to pay. We're not in agreement on that.


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  • #2041
    n97 mini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,991 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    horseburger wrote: »
    There's the wonderful Irish community spirit that bk speaks of!!:)

    What fringe element doesn't deserve my money, in your opinion?


This discussion has been closed.
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