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BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

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Comments

  • #1982
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,645 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    horseburger wrote: »
    People on this forum, have described the job of driving a bus as "unskilled".

    It's not unskilled, however it is low skilled and a profession with low barriers to entry as well, meaning it's very easy for a large number of people to quickly gain the required qualifications to enter the market. This affects the pay level as you don't need to highly pay staff to pull them from an overly limited pool, unlike say surgeons or process engineers or accountants.

    Risks faced on the roads and responsibility for 50+ people's safety have the opposite effect, driving up the pay level to match the responsibilities, which is fair enough but doesn't justify the excessive pay levels we see in BE.

    Ambulance and fire service personnel are not just drivers, they are highly trained first responders, have paramedic training, and substantially more in the case of fire brigade members as they don't just drive to the fire and put their feet up while the others get on with it...


  • #1983
    kiaronh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 276 ✭✭kiaronh


    horseburger wrote: »
    It is the attitude that underlies the comments - the attitude that has an influence in what is posted - which is the issue, to which I refer.

    It's looking down on drivers because of the way that when people compare the professions of teaching or medicine, to that of driving public transport, they talk about time spent in college in advance to starting teaching and practicing medicine, and because drivers might not necessarily have studied a college course, there is a negative tone apparent in the way they argue that drivers shouldn't expect to be paid anything like the salaries of people who have attended college.

    It is an unfair comparison to make, in my opinion, because of the way the roles of each of the professions, are different.

    The issue that is behind such an attitude, is the belief that one profession, is less important, than the other, rather than taking the view that each job is very important, and demanding, and that each job requires particular skills.

    People on this forum, have described the job of driving a bus as "unskilled".
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103103371&postcount=1679

    As I l've said before, I have no issue with drivers earning this money.

    I have an issue with people claiming that the new rates are low (one driver claimed he would be better off on the dole in the Irish Times than earning only 40k a year).

    I also have a big issue with the union ignoring the fact that BE are facing insolvency and their membership will be unemployed unless something is done to save money.
    Would the same people describe driving an ambulance, or a fire engine, as "unskilled", if ever they were in the unfortunate circumstance, of being in urgent need of an ambulance or fire engine?

    I thought Michael Clifford, of the Irish Examiner, made a good point on Sean O'Rourke's show on RTE Radio 1 last Friday 31st March 2017, when he stated:

    "Bus driving is a responsible tough job. And it should be recognised as such. And simply because you don't require a University education, or anything, for it, does not take away from it".

    http://rte.ie/r.html?rii=b9_21153231_15036_31-03-2017_

    I agree. But just because it's a responsible job it doesn't make it immune to reality. Their employer is going to become insolvent if nothing is done. The government can't give cash to expressway even if they wanted to. Something has to give.


  • #1984
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,905 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    NeitherJohn wrote: »
    You're wrong there. Every emergency ambulance has two paramedics on board at least. Both can drive.

    Also all Dublin fire personal are trained as paramedics


  • #1985
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,595 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    horseburger wrote: »
    Perhaps, but while one is driving to the hospital, he/she can't at the same time as driving, care for the patient.

    So the issue is, they are co-operating while undertaking two different skills, one of which is driving, and if one wasn't driving, they would not get to the hospital.

    The issue is that all ambulance drivers are required to have this additional set of skills which is valued highly in addition to the ability to drive.


  • #1986
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    horseburger, the majority of Ambulances in Dublin are operated by Dublin Fire brigade, all Ambulance crew are not only Paramedics, but they are also fire fighters. All Dublin Fire Fighters rotate between both Ambulance and Fire fighting duties.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Fire_Brigade#Emergency_Ambulance_Service_Glossary.2FCallsigns

    In other words they are highly trained and skilled personal who do an extremely dangerous job. Never mind having to run into burning, collapsing buildings, dealing with the horrors of car accidents, etc., they often have to deal with the very worst of our society, with Ambulances and Fire brigades regularly getting attacked by scum.

    Honestly I'm not sure what point you are trying to make!


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  • #1987
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,051 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Also all Dublin fire personal are trained as paramedics

    Ye, but can they drive a bus in all weather conditions with some strange person wanting to talk to you as if you was their best buddie that they haven't seen in years. Imagine a bus full of people pulling up outside A&E because the new driver forgot he wasn't an ambulance driver any more. It's a skill In itself. You may not need a degree to drive a bus or do 4 years in college but you do need a bit of cop on and able to cope with pressure which can't be taught in college. It takes years after passing your test as a bus driver to become an expert at it and certainly not as easy as some might think it is. I've never driven a bus in my life but I'd be confident of being able to drive one around a big depot or an airfield etc but not a hope on the open roads and cities.


  • #1988
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,399 ✭✭✭eeguy


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Ye, but can they drive a bus in all weather conditions with some strange person wanting to talk to you as if you was their best buddie that they haven't seen in years. Imagine a bus full of people pulling up outside A&E because the new driver forgot he wasn't an ambulance driver any more. It's a skill In itself. You may not need a degree to drive a bus or do 4 years in college but you do need a bit of cop on and able to cope with pressure which can't be taught in college. It takes years after passing your test as a bus driver to become an expert at it and certainly not as easy as some might think it is. I've never driven a bus in my life but I'd be confident of being able to drive one around a big depot or an airfield etc but not a hope on the open roads and cities.

    Yep, nail on the head. You may be a highly trained paramedic/firefighter capable of throwing a top heavy ambulance around country roads at 140km/h with the pressure of some young lad bleeding to death in the back, but driving a predefined route at 20 below the speed limit with Pauline chatting to you about her grandsons confirmation is out of your league son:rolleyes::pac:


  • #1989
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,905 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Ye, but can they drive a bus in all weather conditions with some strange person wanting to talk to you as if you was their best buddie that they haven't seen in years. Imagine a bus full of people pulling up outside A&E because the new driver forgot he wasn't an ambulance driver any more. It's a skill In itself. You may not need a degree to drive a bus or do 4 years in college but you do need a bit of cop on and able to cope with pressure which can't be taught in college. It takes years after passing your test as a bus driver to become an expert at it and certainly not as easy as some might think it is. I've never driven a bus in my life but I'd be confident of being able to drive one around a big depot or an airfield etc but not a hope on the open roads and cities.

    I do agree with this statement i was just stating a helpful look I don't believe in this unskilled/skilled job begrudery if we didn't have bus drivers we would't have buses, if didn't have shelf stackers then groceries wouldn't be on the shelfs, if we didn't have factory workers goods wouldn't be made all these would be considered unskilled by some of the contributors to this thread but all are still nessecary. If everyone was a doctor or a scientist or whatever job that is considered skilled the world wouldn't work every job whether skilled or unskilled serves a purpose.


  • #1990
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭horseburger


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    It's not unskilled, however it is low skilled and a profession with low barriers to entry as well, meaning it's very easy for a large number of people to quickly gain the required qualifications to enter the market. This affects the pay level as you don't need to highly pay staff to pull them from an overly limited pool, unlike say surgeons or process engineers or accountants.

    Risks faced on the roads and responsibility for 50+ people's safety have the opposite effect, driving up the pay level to match the responsibilities, which is fair enough but doesn't justify the excessive pay levels we see in BE.

    Ambulance and fire service personnel are not just drivers, they are highly trained first responders, have paramedic training, and substantially more in the case of fire brigade members as they don't just drive to the fire and put their feet up while the others get on with it...

    The point is they drive vehicles as part of an emergency service bringing patients to and from locations. Bus drivers drive vehicles as part of service bringing passengers to and from locations. The bus drivers don't just put their feet up when they arrive at a final destination point, either. They do a return journey.

    Both emergency services, and public transport services, provide a service that is utilized by members of the public, when required, for a range of different reasons.

    The point I was making about the attitude that underlies the comments made, still stands. The point I made, is that, the role of driving the vehicle - in this case buses - was being described as "unskilled".

    I think is unfair, to make such assumptions about the job of operating public transport.

    Skill is required to operate any type of transport that the public use, either in public transport like buses, trains, trams, or as part of professions like taxis, ambulances, fire engines, helicopters, planes, lorries, tractors.

    I just think it is ill - informed to describe operating buses as an "unskilled" job.


  • #1991
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,905 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Anyway this thread is about the current bus eireann strike and nothing to what jobs are and aren't skilled


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  • #1992
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,645 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    horseburger wrote: »
    The point is they drive vehicles as part of an emergency service bringing patients to and from locations. Bus drivers drive vehicles as part of service bringing passengers to and from locations. The bus drivers don't just put their feet up when they arrive at a final destination point, either. They do a return journey.

    Both emergency services, and public transport services, provide a service that is utilized by members of the public, when required, for a range of different reasons.

    The point I was making about the attitude that underlies the comments made, still stands. The point I made, is that, the role of driving the vehicle - in this case buses - was being described as "unskilled".

    I think is unfair, to make such assumptions about the job of operating public transport.

    Skill is required to operate any type of transport that the public use, either in public transport like buses, trains, trams, or as part of professions like taxis, ambulances, fire engines, helicopters, planes, lorries, tractors.

    I just think it is ill - informed to describe operating buses as an "unskilled" job.

    As I just said, it's a low skilled job rather than an unskilled one.


  • #1993
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,905 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    You could also describe a pilot as a low skilled job. I knowill people who have flight simulators who have done with relative ease. But being pilot has such huge responsibility which being a bus driver also has.


  • #1994
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,645 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    You could also describe a pilot as a low skilled job. I knowill people who have flight simulators who have done with relative ease. But being pilot has such huge responsibility which being a bus driver also has.

    except it's not because the actual training and licensing requirements are far far higher.


  • #1995
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭horseburger


    bk wrote: »
    horseburger, the majority of Ambulances in Dublin are operated by Dublin Fire brigade, all Ambulance crew are not only Paramedics, but they are also fire fighters. All Dublin Fire Fighters rotate between both Ambulance and Fire fighting duties.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Fire_Brigade#Emergency_Ambulance_Service_Glossary.2FCallsigns

    In other words they are highly trained and skilled personal who do an extremely dangerous job. Never mind having to run into burning, collapsing buildings, dealing with the horrors of car accidents, etc., they often have to deal with the very worst of our society, with Ambulances and Fire brigades regularly getting attacked by scum.

    Honestly I'm not sure what point you are trying to make!

    I am in no way trying to undermine the work of those who work in emergency services.

    I am making the point that a number of people who have been posting comments about the Bus Éireann dispute, in this forum, have an ignorant, condescending attitude towards the profession of driving public transport vehicles, with phrases like "unskilled" being used to describe it.

    And I asked, in my earlier post, if the poster who used the phrase "unskilled" to describe the task of driving a bus, if he/she would consider the task of driving an ambulance or fire engine, as "unskilled"?

    This is the question I had asked, and the link to the post, which contained the comment, to which I referred, when I was responding to the comment, and my response:

    "Would the same people describe driving an ambulance, or a fire engine, as "unskilled", if ever they were in the unfortunate circumstance, of being in urgent need of an ambulance or fire engine?"

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103103371&postcount=1679

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103144832&postcount=1976

    And the answer, would be that he/she would, in no way describe it as "unskilled", because if that poster was in urgent need of a fire engine or ambulance, he/she would be so appreciative of the fact that someone drove a fire engine or ambulance, to come to their aid, in an emergency, because at that moment in time, they were in urgent need of someone, to drive that fire engine or ambulance, to come to their aid.

    Why don't the people who describe bus driving as "unskilled", take the view that bus drivers provide a service, that is utilized by members of the public, the same way that other services are utilized by members of the public, rather than making ignorant assumptions about what the job entails.


  • #1996
    Here we go
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 286 ✭✭Here we go


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    The issue is that all ambulance drivers are required to have this additional set of skills which is valued highly in addition to the ability to drive.

    When emts arrive at a scene both take care of the patient from over doses to heart attacks administer medication if needed to compare bus drivers to them is ridicules
    Edit sorry ment to tag who you had taged


  • #1997
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭horseburger


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Anyway this thread is about the current bus eireann strike and nothing to what jobs are and aren't skilled

    Indeed.


  • #1998
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    horseburger wrote: »
    The point is they drive vehicles as part of an emergency service bringing patients to and from locations.

    I'm sorry, you do understand that Ambulance drivers are highly skilled paramedics and fire fighters, who have received years of training!

    They don't just drive the ambulance, when they arrive at an incident, both the driver and the person in the back, use their paramedic skills to stabilise the patient with their medical skills and then bring them to hospital.

    Again a reminder that they are also full time fire fighters and operate on fire engines too. That means they are trained in how fires work, how to enter a burning building to save peoples lives, how to safely cut a person out of a car wreckage, how to deal with chemical and industrial accidents, etc.

    We are talking about literally years of highly skilled training. Never mind having to deal with the psychological issues of having to deal with horrifying road accidents, etc.

    The fact that you think that is in anyway comparable to a bus driver..... :eek:


  • #1999
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭horseburger


    Here we go wrote: »
    When emts arrive at a scene both take care of the patient from over doses to heart attacks administer medication if needed to compare bus drivers to them is ridicules
    Edit sorry ment to tag who you had taged

    I wasn't comparing the jobs of bus drivers to that of emergency services.

    I specifically asked if a poster who described driving buses as "unskilled", if that same poster would consider the task of driving ambulances and fire engines as "unskilled".

    I suspect he/she wouldn't.

    The point is, that I think it is unfair to describe, either one of the three tasks, as "unskilled".


  • #2000
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,356 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    horseburger wrote:
    The attitude and superiority complexes of the posters, who make comments denigrating the job of driving buses, is not irrelevant. Their insulting, ignorant and ill - informed attitude, influences the comments they make, in this discussion.

    I and everyone else getting off the Dublin bus this morning thanked the driver. As I have done also on expressway except for the one who didn't do a toilet stop.

    People appreciate the job they do but not at any price.

    Stephen15 wrote:
    You could also describe a pilot as a low skilled job. I knowill people who have flight simulators who have done with relative ease. But being pilot has such huge responsibility which being a bus driver also has.

    For the most part flying an airplane isn't that complicated. The skill though is in dealing with the unexpected.


  • #2001
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭horseburger


    bk wrote: »
    I'm sorry, you do understand that Ambulance drivers are highly skilled paramedics and fire fighters, who have received years of training!

    They don't just drive the ambulance, when they arrive at an incident, both the driver and the person in the back, use their paramedic skills to stabilise the patient with their medical skills and then bring them to hospital.

    Again a reminder that they are also full time fire fighters and operate on fire engines too. That means they are trained in how fires work, how to enter a burning building to save peoples lives, how to safely cut a person out of a car wreckage, how to deal with chemical and industrial accidents, etc.

    We are talking about literally years of highly skilled training. Never mind having to deal with the psychological issues of having to deal with horrifying road accidents, etc.

    The fact that you think that is in anyway comparable to a bus driver..... :eek:

    I have already explained, that I asked a specific question regarding the task involved in driving an ambulance or a fire engine. I asked, as to whether or not the person, to whom I was referring, when I asked the question, would consider the task of driving an emergency vehicle as "unskilled", if at the same time, that person, or any other people, consider the task of driving a bus as "unskilled".

    I never made any comparison between the job of paramedics and fire fighters, and bus drivers.

    If you had read, what I had written, you would know that.

    This is the question I had asked, and the link to the post which contained the comment, to which I referred when I was responding to the comment, and my response:

    "Would the same people describe driving an ambulance, or a fire engine, as "unskilled", if ever they were in the unfortunate circumstance, of being in urgent need of an ambulance or fire engine?"

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103103371&postcount=1679

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103144832&postcount=1976

    My question was specifically about the task of driving vehicles used in emergency services, and bus services, and whether or not the person who considers bus driving as "unskilled", also considers driving ambulances and fire engines as "unskilled".

    I asked this, in relation to the underlying attitude of the posters, who made comments denigrating the profession of bus driving.

    I did not make a comparison between working in the emergency services and working in public transport services.

    I was stating that bus drivers are skilled in their profession, in the same way that skill is needed to drive ambulances and fire engines, in emergency services.

    It really is ridiculous, that I have to, once again, explain that.


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  • #2002
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,120 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    horseburger wrote: »
    I wasn't comparing the jobs of bus drivers to that of emergency services.

    I specifically asked if a poster who described driving buses as "unskilled", if that same poster would consider the task of driving ambulances and fire engines as "unskilled".

    I suspect he/she wouldn't.

    The point is, that I think its unfair to describe, either one of the three tasks, as "unskilled".

    It's been outlined to you in detail how drivers of ambulances and fire engines are highly skilled -- drop this. It's not just a really poor choice to compare to but also off topic.

    -- moderator


  • #2003
    kiaronh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 276 ✭✭kiaronh


    No progress at the WRC, talks continue tomorrow.
    Speaking at the start of the talks on Wednesday, Dermot O’Leary, general secretary of the National Bus and Rail Union (NBRU), said he was not entering the new process with any great optimism.

    He said there was a very strong resolve among his members that they would not leave the process until there was something substantial set out that they could vote on.

    The unions have indicated they will seek to focus in the the new talks on the contribution management will make towards saving Bus Éireann, which is facing potential insolvency in the weeks ahead.

    The last section suggests to me that the unions are going to try to push for more management cuts in an attempt to defect some of the costs from drivers.

    Am I reading too much into this, or does the union sound like they are preparing to go back to members with a fairly similar program of cuts?

    Edit: Forgot link

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/bus-éireann-strike-talks-continue-in-bid-to-end-transport-unrest-1.3038956?mode=amp


  • #2004
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,399 ✭✭✭eeguy


    It sounds like both sides won't or can't move. BE can't financially afford to compromise whole the union can't politically afford to compromise.


  • #2005
    MJohnston
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,755 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    eeguy wrote: »
    It sounds like both sides won't or can't move. BE can't financially afford to compromise whole the union can't politically afford to compromise.

    The first one is almost certainly a "can't", but the latter seems more accurately a "won't" imo. Ultimately I think really the unions and workers must know that BE will find it almost impossible financially to budge, and they've been holding out for government intervention. I say this all with no real judgement of any involved party.


  • #2006
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,046 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    horseburger wrote: »
    Perhaps, but while one is driving to the hospital, he/she can't at the same time as driving, care for the patient.

    So the issue is, they are co-operating while undertaking two different skills, one of which is driving, and if one wasn't driving, they would not get to the hospital.
    Do you think pilots should earn the same as bus drivers? If so, why? If not, why not?


  • #2007
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,595 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    On a train at the moment, dublin to Westport, im getting off at athlone. There's a lot of empty seats. I would have figured extra demand with the whole bus strike.

    Or maybe they added an extra carriage to the train. I don't use the route enough to know if it's usually a 3 car train or a 4 car train.


  • #2008
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,120 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Last warning for alll...
    murphaph wrote: »
    Do you think pilots should earn the same as bus drivers? If so, why? If not, why not?

    We've had enough of this line of debate -- cut it out.

    -- moderator


  • #2009
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 20,713 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    On a train at the moment, dublin to Westport, im getting off at athlone. There's a lot of empty seats. I would have figured extra demand with the whole bus strike.

    Or maybe they added an extra carriage to the train. I don't use the route enough to know if it's usually a 3 car train or a 4 car train.

    Train Travel is too expensive in Ireland. On 1-3 hour journeys where buses on motorways are available they are the preferred option. It is ok if you can book in advance but if you turn up on the day and want to take a train it is expensive. You can just turn up at a bus stop and get on a bus and pay the driver. Also having to book a return for a fairly specific time is an off put as well

    Slava Ukrainii



  • #2010
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Speaking to my parents in Cork yesterday, some interesting tidbits.

    Seemingly Apple isn't the only company who has hired in private bus companies to ferry staff. Seemingly lots of other big employers and business parks have done the same.

    Also seemingly they are stopping at BE bus stops along the way to pick up as many people as they can, not just staff and in some cases they are operating back and forth all day!

    Also it seems lots of people are hitch hiking. A lady was on the radio, she lives in Youghal but works in the city, she has been hitch hiking every day and she says people have been fantastic. Every single day different people have stopped and given her a lift into the city.

    Seemingly people are just going to bus stops and cars are pulling up at them to offer lifts!

    It is actually quiet amazing to see the people and companies in Cork pull together as a community to help one another out. It shows what true community spirit is like.

    I can't speak for the rest of the country, but certainly in Cork, any little support BE staff originally had has now completely evaporated. Worse, given the herculean effort that the private bus companies, trying their best to fill the gaps (of course paid to do so by private companies in Cork), many people are now asking why do we need BE at all? Look at the great job the privates are doing, let them operate the services in Cork.

    I think many Corkonians have long seen BE as a distant Dublin based and focused quango, with little interest in the needs of Cork. I suspect many Corkonians would be much happier if the Cork City and Commuter services were operated by private companies under the direct control of the Cork City and County Councils with input from employers in Cork and the NTA obviously. A more local run and focused service then BE offers.

    If that is how the people in the second biggest city in Ireland feel, I can only imagine what it most be like for those living in more rural parts of Ireland!

    I fear that even if the unions and management come to an agreement, that it may already be too late for BE, that the reputation is already too much damaged and that many people will be sticking to the private operators where available and will be supporting the introduction of even more private services.


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  • #2011
    Fitz*
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,673 ✭✭✭✭Fitz*


    I've actually heard of a woman having to give up her job, as she has no alternative way of getting to work every day. 62 year old woman cant be expected to walk or hitch hike every day.


This discussion has been closed.
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