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BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

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Comments

  • #1952
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,051 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    kiaronh wrote: »
    Low relative to what?

    If you think that everyone below 40k is low paid then 60% of the people in Ireland are.

    What would you consider to be average pay? Or highly paid?

    These are all subjective terms so there's no right or wrong, but as I've said before it leads to ridiculous situations where everyone below 100k considers themselves to be low/average.
    32 grand basic is low pay, bumped up to 48 through allowances is decent enough.


  • #1953
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,595 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Unless they have found a cheaper or better alternative they will go back.

    That's the thing, many people have.


  • #1954
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    Stephen15 wrote:
    Don't be surprised if there is more wildcat pickets tommorrow seem to be targeting Fridays

    I don't think that will happen because they're in talks with the WRC.


  • #1955
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    32 grand basic is low pay, bumped up to 48 through allowances is decent enough.

    Way too much to pay to drive a bus driver. You need to look at it's competitors that's all that matters. There is " no rate for the job " in reality, only what a company' can afford to pay you and still make a profit.


  • #1956
    kiaronh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 276 ✭✭kiaronh


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    32 grand basic is low pay, bumped up to 48 through allowances is decent enough.

    Like I said, half the country is on less than 32k and 75% of people earns less than 48k. So I'd say 48k is pretty damn good, not just decent enough.

    I really hope that the WRC talks work, because if BE goes bust or down the road of compulsory redundancies then a lot of drivers are going to struggle to find new jobs with similar pay.


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  • #1957
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,595 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Sometimes you have to make a decision about whether your employer can pay you what you want. If they can't you either leave or agitate until they collapse and give your redundancy. I bet there's a core of drivers aged 60+ who want Bus Eireann to collapse so that they can walk with redundancy as a golden handshake.


  • #1958
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,768 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Unless they have found a cheaper or better alternative they will go back.

    A substantial number will have. I can see lots of employers being asked to work with private firms taxsaver schemes now. That many employers won't provides an unearned boost to CIE sales or encourages car use actually


  • #1959
    kiaronh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 276 ✭✭kiaronh


    BoatMad wrote: »
    Way too much to pay to drive a bus driver. You need to look at it's competitors that's all that matters. There is " no rate for the job " in reality, only what a company' can afford to pay you and still make a profit.

    32k seems fair enough for core hours, as does another 30% or so for shift work/antisocial hours. BE are happy to pay those rates so they must reckon they can make a profit with it.

    While there is no rate for a job there is a market rate, it's what similar workers get elsewhere. BE are paying above the going rate at the moment so the drivers are in an odd position- this is great if it lasts but will put them in one hell of a hole if BE goes under.


  • #1960
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,905 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    pilly wrote: »
    I don't think that will happen because they're in talks with the WRC.

    Nothing will me when the NBRU is involved


  • #1961
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭horseburger


    kiaronh wrote: »
    Fair enough. People who are being insulting toward drivers aren't adding anything to the discussion, no disagreement on that.

    The only comment I would make is that some people will take any criticism of the drivers position or questions about BE finances as a snobbish insult. And those people aren't adding anything to the discussion either.

    I haven't taken, as an insult, any questions about Bus Éireann's finances.

    I have written positively of bus services by Bus Éireann and the various private bus companies.

    The main issue that I have raised, in this discussion, is the question of what type of services would replace those, that are operated by Bus Éireann, if Bus Éireann does end, in the way advocated, by posters in this forum.

    I ask this with reference to the fact that the main type of services that other bus companies operate, are the type of services that serve city to city like between Cork and Dublin, Galway and Dublin, Belfast and Dublin and Limerick and Dublin, with less examples of services where they serve smaller towns that don't also serve another city.

    That does not mean that I am criticizing these private operators. It is an observation, in comparison to the services currently operated by Bus Éireann, for example its service between Drogheda, Navan and Trim.

    The other question is, what form of cutbacks in its PSO services, does Bus Éireann intend to make, to its PSO routes in more rural areas?

    It is a question that was raised in the Meeting of the Joint Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport, on Wednesday, 25 January 2017, but was not answered by Acting CEO of Bus Éireann Ray Hernan, even though he said that such cutbacks to PSO routes, are being considered.

    (If I mention that it was Imelda Munster that asked this specific question, of Ray Hernan, I might once again be accused of being a member of Sinn Féin, or indeed, of being Imelda Munster, so I better also mention that Dara Calleary TD, Fianna Fáil, asked some very relevant questions about the timing of the announcement of the proposed cutbacks in January, and that Mick Barry, of Solidarity, also asked some relevant questions, as well as Peter Fitzpatrick TD, Fine Gael, and Thomas Byrne TD, Fianna Fáil.)

    And, for asking these legitimate questions, in a discussion forum - of all places - I get accused of scaremongering.:)

    here is the video and transcript of the Joint Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport, on Wednesday, 25 January 2017.

    http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=34429&&CatID=127

    https://media.heanet.ie/player/f2222d18a9831887fead3bc674028fb8

    http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/committeetakes/TTJ2017012500002?opendocument#Q00100


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  • #1962
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭horseburger


    BoatMad wrote: »
    Driving a bus cannot be compared to say civil engineers or a engineer designing a car engine.

    At the end of the day, it's a classic semi -skilled job. such workers in these jobs are under downwards social mobility for the first time in recent history. What I mean by that is the assumption that each year or two brings increased earnings is not not sustainable and real earnings are now falling.
    BoatMad wrote: »
    What's your point. The fact is those going to college is irelevant how they get in to that course. The key is they qualify.

    And of course all BE employed have a " deep interest " in their job!!!

    If you bothered to read my post, my point was about the attitude of people denigrating the job of driving buses for Bus Éireann, by saying they should get a pay cut, and adding statements to the effect of 'all they do is drive buses'.

    The point I was making is that if someone makes a remark like that, then it is clear that they don't have any regard for any driver of any type of public transport vehicles, regardless of whether they are state owned, semi-state owned, or private.

    As a result, I don't think that anyone, who denigrates Bus Éireann drivers, by making these type of comments, has any regard, either, for drivers who operate the services by other bus companies.


  • #1963
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,051 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    That's the thing, many people have.

    Then that is a good thing that came out of the strike.


  • #1964
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,573 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    devnull wrote: »
    A pectoral employment order basically is a request to force all other operators to pay the same terms and conditions that they are paid which would grossly increase the price of public transport to people in this country which are paid a lot less than they are so in turn they can keep their pay.

    They care about the passengers so much, not only do they want to gouge the taxpayer for extra money, they also want to increase the cost of traveling to the public up as well by making Expressway more competitive by simply forcing the other operators costs up which will lead to higher prices.

    All whilst claiming to be on the side of the public....

    yet basic terms and conditions will be protected, meaning something like tendering couldn't be used to drive down terms and conditions, or terms and conditions couldn't be driven down just to win a tender.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #1965
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,120 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    There seems to be some type of strange discussion here about apprently nasty things said 5 or maybe 10 pages ago -- both sides needs to cut this out or face a very long ban.

    If you think posts are horrifying use the report a post feature or just move on.

    -- moderator


  • #1966
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭horseburger


    MOH wrote: »
    I don't think anybody's looking down on anyone because of their profession.

    The problem is that supporters of BE drivers who appear to be earning the average professional wage are complaining that wage is ridiculously low.

    It seems reasonable to point out in response that earning an average wage for an average job is actually perfectly fair.

    There's plenty of people unhappy in all professions, and they're perfectly free to go and look for a different job, or indeed go on strike for better conditions in the same job. But they're not all paid for out of the public purse. And if this situation arose in the private sector, people would have to face the reality that they'd either have to look for a job elsewhere, or take the required cuts, otherwise the company would fold.

    But BE seem to think they're above all that, and they should just be bailed out by the taxpayers. If anyone is looking down on everyone else it's them.

    There are, indeed, people looking down on the profession of operating bus transport services, when they compare salaries and qualifications of drivers, to that of other unrelated professions.

    I don't think a fair comparison can be made between driving buses, to working as a doctor, or a teacher.

    They are all totally different, but each very important, professions.


  • #1967
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,046 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Huge lol @ sectoral employment order. The desperation is really showing when they come out with that rubbish.


  • #1968
    kiaronh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 276 ✭✭kiaronh


    horseburger wrote: »
    There are, indeed, people looking down on the profession of operating bus transport services, when they compare salaries and qualifications of drivers, to that of other unrelated professions.

    I don't think a fair comparison can be made between driving buses, to working as a doctor, or a teacher.

    They are all totally different, but each very important, professions.

    How is it looking down on drivers to point out that their current pay is similar to that of a teacher? It's a fact.

    (It might be an inconvient fact for people who want to pretend on Facebook that all drivers earn 30k a year and BE are threatening them with a 30% pay cut, but that doesn't make it any less true.)


  • #1969
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,051 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    BoatMad wrote: »
    Way too much to pay to drive a bus driver. You need to look at it's competitors that's all that matters. There is " no rate for the job " in reality, only what a company' can afford to pay you and still make a profit.

    So if the competitors cut the wages then so should you? If they was on minimum wage people would still give out that they get too much. People should strive to get a higher wage instead of wishing the wage to come down to a lower level to match theirs.


  • #1970
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,051 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    kiaronh wrote: »
    Like I said, half the country is on less than 32k and 75% of people earns less than 48k. So I'd say 48k is pretty damn good, not just decent enough.

    I really hope that the WRC talks work, because if BE goes bust or down the road of compulsory redundancies then a lot of drivers are going to struggle to find new jobs with similar pay.

    I'd be happy with 48 k as a basic. Even better if it was net pay.


  • #1971
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,051 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    Sometimes you have to make a decision about whether your employer can pay you what you want. If they can't you either leave or agitate until they collapse and give your redundancy. I bet there's a core of drivers aged 60+ who want Bus Eireann to collapse so that they can walk with redundancy as a golden handshake.

    Sounds like a dream scenario alright.


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  • #1972
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 20,713 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    devnull wrote: »
    Peppa Pig wrote: »
    aka Same Oul Bull ****.

    Give us a pay rise and make the taxpayer pay for it.

    A pectoral employment order basically is a request to force all other operators to pay the same terms and conditions that they are paid which would grossly increase the price of public transport to people in this country which are paid a lot less than they are so in turn they can keep their pay.

    They care about the passengers so much, not only do they want to gouge the taxpayer for extra money, they also want to increase the cost of traveling to the public up as well by making Expressway more competitive by simply forcing the other operators costs up which will lead to higher prices.

    All whilst claiming to be on the side of the public....

    A sectoral employment order would do nothing for them. First off drivers basic pay is similar between both BE and the other operators. Holiday entitlement would be similar. It unlikely any employer could be forced to fund the type of sick pay arrangements that BE have and the BE pension fund is in disarray. That leaves the OT level and shift allowance. The OT structure in BE could not be forced into any company it basically an unmanaged disaster that has developed over years and the workers control the work practices. A shift allowance is only payable where one works shift if drivers are on flexibility contracts it is unlikely again it could be imposed on other bus operators.

    Because of this a sectoral employment order would not be any use to BE worker it might rise costs to other bus operator's but 5-10% but staffing levels, and work practices in BE could not be imposed on other bus companies.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • #1973
    n97 mini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,991 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    So if the competitors cut the wages then so should you? If they was on minimum wage people would still give out that they get too much. People should strive to get a higher wage instead of wishing the wage to come down to a lower level to match theirs.

    If your competitors are making ends meet and you are not then cutting costs is the only way. This might include wages. What else do you suggest? The tooth fairy?

    People should strive for a higher wage by doing something to earn it, not bullying it out of their employer or the taxpayer.


  • #1974
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 11,911 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    A sectoral employment order would do nothing for them. First off drivers basic pay is similar between both BE and the other operators. Holiday entitlement would be similar. It unlikely any employer could be forced to fund the type of sick pay arrangements that BE have and the BE pension fund is in disarray. That leaves the OT level and shift allowance. The OT structure in BE could not be forced into any company it basically an unmanaged disaster that has developed over years and the workers control the work practices. A shift allowance is only payable where one works shift if drivers are on flexibility contracts it is unlikely again it could be imposed on other bus operators.

    Because of this a sectoral employment order would not be any use to BE worker it might rise costs to other bus operator's but 5-10% but staffing levels, and work practices in BE could not be imposed on other bus companies.

    But isn't that the plan, force up the competitions costs to make Expressway more competitive and perform financially better and push up prices?


  • #1975
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,051 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    n97 mini wrote: »
    If your competitors are making ends meet and you are not then cutting costs is the only way. This might include wages. What else do you suggest? The tooth fairy?

    People should strive for a higher wage by doing something to earn it, not bullying it out of their employer or the taxpayer.

    Don't talk to me about the tooth fairy, she still owes me a tenner.


  • #1976
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭horseburger


    kiaronh wrote: »
    How is it looking down on drivers to point out that their current pay is similar to that of a teacher? It's a fact.

    (It might be an inconvient fact for people who want to pretend on Facebook that all drivers earn 30k a year and BE are threatening them with a 30% pay cut, but that doesn't make it any less true.)

    It is the attitude that underlies the comments - the attitude that has an influence in what is posted - which is the issue, to which I refer.

    It's looking down on drivers because of the way that when people compare the professions of teaching or medicine, to that of driving public transport, they talk about time spent in college in advance of starting teaching and practicing medicine, and because drivers might not necessarily have studied a college course, there is a negative tone apparent, in the way they argue that drivers shouldn't expect to be paid anything like the salaries of people who have attended college.

    It is an unfair comparison to make, in my opinion, because of the way the roles of each of the professions, are different.

    The issue that is behind such an attitude, is the belief that one profession, is less important, than the other, rather than taking the view that each job is very important, and demanding, and that each job requires particular skills.

    People on this forum, have described the job of driving a bus as "unskilled".
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103103371&postcount=1679

    Would the same people describe driving an ambulance, or a fire engine, as "unskilled", if ever they were in the unfortunate circumstance, of being in urgent need of an ambulance or fire engine?

    I thought Michael Clifford, of the Irish Examiner, made a good point on Sean O'Rourke's show on RTE Radio 1 last Friday 31st March 2017, when he stated:

    "Bus driving is a responsible tough job. And it should be recognised as such. And simply because you don't require a University education, or anything, for it, does not take away from it".

    http://rte.ie/r.html?rii=b9_21153231_15036_31-03-2017_


  • #1977
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,097 ✭✭✭amcalester


    horseburger wrote: »
    It is the attitude that underlies the comments - the attitude that has an influence in what is posted - which is the issue, to which I refer.

    It's looking down on drivers because of the way that when people compare the professions of teaching or medicine, to that of driving public transport, they talk about time spent in college in advance to starting teaching and practicing medicine, and because drivers might not necessarily have studied a college course, there is a negative tone apparent in the way they argue that drivers shouldn't expect to be paid anything like the salaries of people who have attended college.

    It is an unfair comparison to make, in my opinion, because of the way the roles of each of the professions, are different.

    The issue that is behind such an attitude, is the belief that one profession, is less important, than the other, rather than taking the view that each job is very important, and demanding, and that each job requires particular skills.

    People on this forum, have described the job of driving a bus as "unskilled".
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103103371&postcount=1679

    Would the same people describe driving an ambulance, or a fire engine, as "unskilled"?

    I thought Michael Clifford, of the Irish Examiner, made a good point on Sean O'Rourke's show on RTE Radio 1 last Friday, when he stated:

    "Bus driving is a responsible tough job. And it should be recognised as such. And simply because you don't require a University education, or anything, for it, does not take away from it".

    http://rte.ie/r.html?rii=b9_21153231_15036_31-03-2017_

    By ambulance driver do you mean paramedic? Someone who literally saves lives versus a BE bus driver who likens their job to that of a counsellor.

    It's not people looking down on bus drivers, it's bus drivers claiming their BE job is some sort of unique social service only they can perform.


  • #1978
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,399 ✭✭✭eeguy


    amcalester wrote: »
    By ambulance driver do you mean paramedic? Someone who literally saves lives versus a BE bus driver who likens their job to that of a counsellor.

    It's not people looking down on bus drivers, it's bus drivers claiming their BE job is some sort of unique social service only they can perform.

    Bus driving is a hard job, but every job is a hard job.
    Doesn't matter if you're digging ditches, making sandwiches in a deli or performing surgery, most people come home tired after a long day.

    The issue is the barrier to entry to be a bus driver, is low and demand for bus drivers is low. Therefore wages are not expected to be large, compared to a job where the barrier to entry is high and demand is high.

    You won't find a person in the country who thinks they're paid too much.
    but since the cost of BE wages is borne by the taxpayer (since they run at a massive loss), people are right to have an interest in how much they get paid.


  • #1979
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭horseburger


    amcalester wrote: »
    By ambulance driver do you mean paramedic? Someone who literally saves lives versus a BE bus driver who likens their job to that of a counsellor.

    It's not people looking down on bus drivers, it's bus drivers claiming their BE job is some sort of unique social service only they can perform.

    No. I meant ambulance driver, because it is the ambulance driver that brings the paramedic to the scene of the accident and then to the hospital, while the paramedic cares for the patient in the ambulance, while the ambulance driver goes to the hospital, with the paramedic and the patient.

    So, both the paramedic and the ambulance driver co-operate, to achieve a positive outcome, recognizing that each one has an important and job, rather than getting to the scene of the accident and then having an argument with each other, insinuating than one job is less important than the other.


  • #1980
    NeitherJohn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 628 ✭✭✭NeitherJohn


    horseburger wrote: »
    No. I meant ambulance driver, because it is the ambulance driver that brings the paramedic to the scene of the accident and then to the hospital, while the paramedic cares for the patient in the ambulance, while the ambulance driver goes to the hospital, with the paramedic and the patient.

    So, both the paramedic and the ambulance driver co-operate, to achieve a positive outcome, recognizing that each one has an important and job, rather than getting to the scene of the accident and then having an argument with each other, insinuating than one job is less important than the other.

    You're wrong there. Every emergency ambulance has two paramedics on board at least. Both can drive.


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  • #1981
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭horseburger


    NeitherJohn wrote: »
    You're wrong there. Every emergency ambulance has two paramedics on board at least. Both can drive.

    Perhaps, but while one is driving to the hospital, he/she can't at the same time as driving, care for the patient.

    So the issue is, they are co-operating while undertaking two different skills, one of which is driving, and if one wasn't driving, they would not get to the hospital.


This discussion has been closed.
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