BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

suicide_circus · 04-04-2017 07:19PM

L1011 wrote: »

NBRUs statements today show that they don't even have the vaguest idea of how the company operates; and totally puts paid to the idea that they have a coherent plan.

"take the managers wages" doesn't plug the gap. Doesn't show much of the constantly touted 'solidarity' either.

Manigurs arr wurkurs too!

Stephen15 · 04-04-2017 11:10PM

I reckon this dispute will be resolved fairly quickly when the talks begin. The unions will have to agree to some but not all the cuts. I think will be close but BE will scrap by the skin of their teeth.

JCX BXC · 04-04-2017 11:13PM

My opinion is that we've just passed the point of no return. Even if BE get this sorted just before they run out of money, the damage done to its customer base will be incredible, I doubt they'll have many fare paying passengers at all! So they'll quickly run into the ground at this stage anyway.

Put it down and put it out of its misery.

n97 mini · 04-04-2017 11:29PM

Stephen15 wrote: »

I reckon this dispute will be resolved fairly quickly when the talks begin. The unions will have to agree to some but not all the cuts. I think will be close but BE will scrap by the skin of their teeth.

I pretty much agree. Cuts will be to the Expressway side of the house. The rest will be untouched.

n97 mini · 04-04-2017 11:36PM

trellheim wrote: »

I know its en vogue to bash NBRu but SIPTU aren't blameless either - they can go back to work but are they ?

There are actually five unions in dispute with BE. The NBRU have been by far the most Trotskyist.

Ironic, as the predecessor to SIPTU put Waterford city into decades of mass unemployment via the dockers strike.

devnull · 04-04-2017 11:36PM

n97 mini wrote: »

I pretty much agree. Cuts will be to the Expressway side of the house. The rest will be untouched.

doubt it - they are basically saying that no route cuts are a precondition.

Gael23 · 04-04-2017 11:44PM

All depends if NBRU hold firm on their stance that salaries are off the table.

jimmycrackcorm · 04-04-2017 11:55PM

end of the road wrote: »

there was no capitulation at luas. both sides came to a deal.

Which is great when it is possible, not so great when leap card prices go up when the Luas operation gets re-tendered, and TUPE comes into play.

what a load of rubbish. there is plenty of space for the bus industry on the current road system, and deregulation isn't happening because it has been proven a failure and ridiculously bad for customers. the absolutely ridiculous idea of removing the railway, destroying good infrastructure that has huge potential and can move huge amounts of people and goods, which currently provides a service to people who would otherwise not use public transport, provides some competition to road transport, has no merrit. in my view such nonsense suggestion would only be suggested especially in terms of within the GDA , by a pro-road/anti-rail extremist who belongs in the 1950s, or someone who is very very deluded. the cost to bring rail formations up to road standards when we have lots of road capacity which is of much better quality then any road made from a rail formation could ever be, would be absolutely ridiculous. the railway is viable, it is going nowhere for now. time to get used to it, as a road and rail transport system is the only option for a modern forward thinking country.

Deregulation has worked wonders for taxis but I'd agree that it doesn't work well for buses or airlines. But people confuse deregulation with a free for all when they actually mean competition.

De-regulation in the competitive sense that private operators such as Aircoach are allowed when unions try to blackmail the public within an over-regulated regime.

As for rail, there's a reason why there is no growth in rail, unlike bus competition, unlike airlines. There certainly won't be any new railways to Donegal which is telling about it's importance as a transport mechanism.

end of the road · 05-04-2017 12:33AM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Which is great when it is possible, not so great when leap card prices go up when the Luas operation gets re-tendered, and TUPE comes into play.

well, the operator does have to make something out of the contract.

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

As for rail, there's a reason why there is no growth in rail, unlike bus competition, unlike airlines. There certainly won't be any new railways to Donegal which is telling about it's importance as a transport mechanism.

the reason it hasn't grown is it only effectively offers an onboard experience only a bit above a bus. however, it is still above a bus and always will be. that is the only reason bus transport has grown. but i believe that will change in the future. with the country recovering rail usage will grow. the railway is a very important transport service for the country and for those who use it.

roosterman71 · 05-04-2017 08:37AM

This appeared on my Facebook feed this morning. How true it is or not is up for debate. The opening line says it's going to deliver a few facts from a staff member in Bus Eireann

We the staff of Bus Eireann would like to apologise to the public who have been affected by our industrial dispute, but before you judge us we feel that you need to know the facts as to why we felt it necessary to take this action.
It has been portrayed in the media that we earn in excess of â‚¬70,000p.a this is grossly untrue. In fact we earn far less than that.
We do not get our VHI / private health care paid for us.
We do not get our pension paid for us.
A drivers wage on the maximum scale after 4 yrs is â‚¬624.10. Drivers who work a Sunday get an additional â‚¬124.82.Drivers who work different shifts get an additional allowance and drivers who rotate with other drivers get an extra â‚¬41.61.We also get an allowance for bank holidays. The following example shows how much we actually earn (basic).
These figures are based on a 48 week year as we get a reduced amount for our holiday pay.
Example A: John works 39 hrs with no Sunday, no rota, no shift allowance and no overtime would earn â‚¬624.10 x48 = â‚¬29956.00. We are governed by EU law so we can only work so many hours, in fact we can only work 90hrs in a fortnight added to the fact that before we do any overtime we must have achieved 45 hrs consecutive rest. We and that is all grades of personnel in Bus Eireann have not had any pay rise for the past 10 years.
In fact we actually took a pay cut on our Sunday allowance and overtime rates to help out the company, and they did as they promised reinstated them after 18 months. We did this as we were promised that when the economy picks up we would be rewarded. However the economy has picked up and our reward for helping the company out is:
30% pay cut
Shift and rota allowance to be abolished
Sunday allowance reduced to â‚¬20.
Our daily breaks would increase from 2.45 hrs unpaid to 4 hrs unpaid
So we could potentially be away from our homes between 12 -13 hrs a day which means that we would have less quality time with our families. This is contrary to Bus Eireanns policy of a work and home life balance.
Not only are our wages to be slashed but also your bus services. It should also be noted that the new CEO Mr Hernan has a salary in excess of â‚¬200,000pa. Another fact that has been hidden from you ladies and gentlemen is the fact that the ex CEO of Bus Eireann was given a golden handshake of â‚¬500,000!
As you can clearly see we do not earn what is being portrayed in fact if these cuts take place then the loss to each member of staff is the equivalent of the average weekly mortgage payment or indeed the average weekly shop. This would bring unnecessary financial hardship to us; also most staff members would be able to claim family income support. So it would actually cost the government more and also put your taxes up.
Remember this too we transport the most precious cargo in the world human life. We are responsible for 50 or so lives. We have to remain vigilant at all times as any error could be catastrophically fatal. We trust that this clarifies the misconstrued information presented by the media which neither the management nor the board of C.I.E has denied.

Please copy and paste this to your status so as many people as possible see this.Thanks

Link to post - https://www.facebook.com/georginapatricia2/posts/10212467660997405

(Apologies for the stupid symbols. It seems boards doesn't like the euro sign and changes it whenever it meets it. Tried copy and pasting, tried changing each individually. Then I gave up!)

L1011 · 05-04-2017 08:49AM

How many drivers will ever be in the position they're using as an example of no Sundays, overtime, etc. None?

Examples need to be realistic. If you work in a job with irregular hours payments you budget for that, rather than expect them to be there every week.

Allinall · 05-04-2017 08:52AM

roosterman71 wrote: »

This appeared on my Facebook feed this morning. How true it is or not is up for debate. The opening line says it's going to deliver a few facts from a staff member in Bus Eireann

Link to post - https://www.facebook.com/georginapatricia2/posts/10212467660997405

(Apologies for the stupid symbols. It seems boards doesn't like the euro sign and changes it whenever it meets it. Tried copy and pasting, tried changing each individually. Then I gave up!)

Where's his examples b and c, showing all the various allowances kicking in and bringing up their wages to a more than reasonable level?

Are there actually any drivers working "John's" basic 39 hour week?

I doubt it.

whisky_galore · 05-04-2017 08:56AM

Why couldn't they have a 'no fares' protest and run services instead so as to get the public on side?

CIARAN_BOYLE · 05-04-2017 08:57AM

Allinall wrote: »

Where's his examples b and c, showing all the various allowances kicking in and bringing up their wages to a more than reasonable level?

Are there actually any drivers working "John's" basic 39 hour week?

I doubt it.

not to mention multiplying by 48 instead of 52. they do get holiday pay

Cookie_Monster · 05-04-2017 09:06AM

reduced holiday pay rates would be illegal as well, no?

trellheim · 05-04-2017 09:18AM

The FB excerpt says a pay cut. AIUI a basic pay increase is on offer ?

I like the strawman "but look at the money the CEO/ex-CEO is on!" as if that matters a toss

magentis · 05-04-2017 09:25AM

L1011 wrote: »

How many drivers will ever be in the position they're using as an example of no Sundays, overtime, etc. None?

Examples need to be realistic. If you work in a job with irregular hours payments you budget for that, rather than expect them to be there every week.

Plenty drivers get exactly that actually,the example is very realistic.On city services,some drivers would never get to work a sunday.

From the fact that it's the drivers pay that people have responded about.It must be ok that Mr Hernan is earning â‚¬200,000 which would pay 5 or 6 drivers. (Great now we have that figure,when asked in the past he said he did not know what his remuneration is).

And then you have the layers of "management" all the way down the line,getting paid â‚¬50,000 to â‚¬120,000.Various "advisors" and pr people.

Then you have the holding company management,if each company has it's own board and CEO.What does the holding company actually do??

â‚¬500,000 to the former CEO and a fine pension on top.No doubt the outgoing human resources manager got a fine sum too.

Bad management,overpaid management,excessive spend on management.

kiaronh · 05-04-2017 09:28AM

I don't believe that BE are asking to cut basic pay. So example A would lose nothing at all.

It says driver basic rates of pay of approximately €32,000 are not out of line with industry averages and do not constitute an impediment to competitiveness. However it argues that drivers’ total earnings are high. It says last year average earnings were €47,000 with a significant number earning over €60,000

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/bus-%C3%A9ireann-proposes-route-closures-sharp-cuts-to-staff-earnings-1.2982036?mode=amp

There's a clumsy slight of hand going on here. I believe that the company is proposing a 30% cut to average overtime pay. (I've seen interviews where drivers talk about going from 48K to 42K).

The average driver loses about 10% from overall earnings.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0127/848229-bus-eireann/

So a big average pay cut. But when the options are insolvency or closing routes then just refusing to consider pay cuts is not a good way to protect jobs.

Dyr · 05-04-2017 09:47AM

would there be no appetite for redundancies given that they're apparently overstaffed?

L1011 · 05-04-2017 10:09AM

magentis wrote: »

Plenty drivers get exactly that actually,the example is very realistic.On city services,some drivers would never get to work a sunday.

Its already a fake 'example' as it pretends they get 0 holiday pay. Annual figure is grossly distorted by that.

So there are city drivers who never do any overtime, any Sundays, any shift allowance or any public holiday? Are they, by any chance, doing this by choice?

magentis wrote: »

Bad management,overpaid management,excessive spend on management.

You could replace the entire management structure (with a slimmed down one) and not come close to the savings required. Its not as if the restructuring plan doesn't have management changes anyway.

Good luck getting a CEO to turn around a basket case for much less than 200k.

devnull · 05-04-2017 10:24AM

L1011 wrote: »

Its already a fake 'example' as it pretends they get 0 holiday pay. Annual figure is grossly distorted by that.

So there are city drivers who never do any overtime, any Sundays, any shift allowance or any public holiday? Are they, by any chance, doing this by choice?

There'd be very few, it's usual union tactic, justify the pay of the highest paid and the most senior drivers in the company who are getting huge pay and working the most overtime by quoting the lowest in the company to show they are not paid enough.

The other thing is since these people are getting barely any premiums then the cuts surely can't effect them as no basic pay is being cut. It's what happened in my union when I worked for a famous Irish company, quote the lowest paid who have nothing to gain or lose in an attempt to drum up support when really the unions are fighting for people at the top of the scale of the grades.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 05-04-2017 10:26AM

L1011 wrote: »

magentis wrote: »

Plenty drivers get exactly that actually,the example is very realistic.On city services,some drivers would never get to work a sunday.

Its already a fake 'example' as it pretends they get 0 holiday pay. Annual figure is grossly distorted by that.

So there are city drivers who never do any overtime, any Sundays, any shift allowance or any public holiday? Are they, by any chance, doing this by choice?

To me it suggests that if city bus drivers don't get overtime then the expressway drivers average is probably closer to €60K than €47K.
I say to drivers why are you supporting these people on twice your salaries getting benefits that you don't get and why do you take the money from your families so that you can strike on their behalf. They won't support you.

AlmightyCushion · 05-04-2017 10:28AM

devnull wrote: »

There'd be very few, it's usual union tactic, justify the pay of the highest paid and the most senior drivers in the company who are getting huge pay and working the most overtime by quoting the lowest in the company to show they are not paid enough.

The other thing is since these people are getting barely any premiums then the cuts surely can't effect them as no basic pay is being cut. It's what happened in my union when I worked for a famous Irish company, quote the lowest paid who have nothing to gain or lose in an attempt to drum up support when really the unions are fighting for people at the top of the scale of the grades.

Since Bus Eireann are offering an increase to basic pay to reduce overtime then the driver getting none of these extra allowances will actually earn more money. So, the example the union use to show us how much those evil managers at Bus Eireann are trying to screw the honest hard working man, is actually getting screwed by the union.

fxotoole · 05-04-2017 10:29AM

roosterman71 wrote: »

This appeared on my Facebook feed this morning. How true it is or not is up for debate. The opening line says it's going to deliver a few facts from a staff member in Bus Eireann

Link to post - https://www.facebook.com/georginapatricia2/posts/10212467660997405

(Apologies for the stupid symbols. It seems boards doesn't like the euro sign and changes it whenever it meets it. Tried copy and pasting, tried changing each individually. Then I gave up!)

So just shy of 30k with no working on Sundays, rostering, etc, etc...

How does that compare to the median salary of a private bus driver in one of BE's competitors (Kavanagh's, John McGinley's, Aircoach, CityLink, PaddyWagon, etc)?

30k is a decent enough salary. It's not too far off the average industrial wage, so I don't see how their argument of being low paid holds any water.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 05-04-2017 10:30AM

48,000 per year is a serious amount of money to be earning for driving a bus. I would hazard a guess that all other driving jobs fall well below this level of remuneration. Do truck drivers, delivery drivers or taxi drivers get even close to that level of income?

Considering you don't need a college degree of some kind nor is it back breaking labour, it's a pretty sweet deal.

I've said this before, and it's probably politically impracticable, but the Free Travel pass has to be abolished entirely. A subsidised Travel Card is more than fair, it's what most other countries do. You can never run a proper service if every second person using it is paying nothing!

To use an Irish Rail example. A ticket from Dublin to Cork could be 70 OR it could be free. That is too big a discrepancy!
Like with GP's, you have to pay 50/60 for a visit, OR it is completely free with a Medical Card.
We have to close that gap in the country or prices will continue to be distorted even further.

devnull · 05-04-2017 10:34AM

fxotoole wrote: »

So just shy of 30k with no working on Sundays, rostering, etc, etc...

Both sides said basic is â‚¬32k so the figures don't look correct.

How does that compare to the median salary of a private bus driver in one of BE's competitors (Kavanagh's, John McGinley's, Aircoach, CityLink, PaddyWagon, etc)?

30k is a decent enough salary. It's not too far off the average industrial wage, so I don't see how their argument of being low paid holds any water.

Best data we have:
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/private-bus-operators-pay-lower-wages-than-bus-%C3%A9ireann-1.2802281

AlmightyCushion · 05-04-2017 10:34AM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

To me it suggests that if city bus drivers don't get overtime then the expressway drivers average is probably closer to â‚¬60K than â‚¬47K.
I say to drivers why are you supporting these people on twice your salaries getting benefits that you don't get and why do you take the money from your families so that you can strike on their behalf. They won't support you.

Fearmongering. They start off with these guys but once they have their way here they'll come for you next. It was the same with Tesco. I knew a few people who were affected by the recent goings on at Tesco that led to strikes. They actually had no problems with what Tesco were proposing (things like increased flexibility, I think they were getting a small pay increase for it too) but the unions said if they let them change their contract over this, then the next thing they'd do is come after their pay.

devnull · 05-04-2017 10:37AM

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Since Bus Eireann are offering an increase to basic pay to reduce overtime then the driver getting none of these extra allowances will actually earn more money. So, the example the union use to show us how much those evil managers at Bus Eireann are trying to screw the honest hard working man, is actually getting screwed by the union.

Or that the people at the top of the union perhaps are using at as a smokescreen for the people who have a lot to lose and are trotting out the wages of a few staff who would be quite new to the company, since coming out and saying how much the people at the top were on would be negative PR?

Peppa Pig · 05-04-2017 10:51AM

fxotoole wrote: »

So just shy of 30k with no working on Sundays, rostering, etc, etc...

There's a driver in one of the other threads confirming he's on 32k and he's only there a year or so.
So the Facebook post is typical union nonsense. No holiday pay, no allowance, no overtime, no mention of getting paid when not working a full day, that's where the issues are. What is the problem with getting rid of all these as none of them appear to be earning them.

And as for VHI not getting paid, they have a medical plan. Very few get VHI paid, even in the private sector.

It was mentioned elsewhere here that we are seeing the death rattle of this dispute. They can post on Facebook all they want - in the WRC, BE mangement will have the actual figures to shoot them down. Look at the BE annual report, average earnings are 48k.

My heart bleeds for them.

AlmightyCushion · 05-04-2017 10:53AM

devnull wrote: »

Or that the people at the top of the union perhaps are using at as a smokescreen for the people who have a lot to lose and are trotting out the wages of a few staff who would be quite new to the company, since coming out and saying how much the people at the top were on would be negative PR?

Pretty much. Could you imagine the uproar if they were asking for sympathy for poor Joe who earns 60k a year, spends half his work day working and the other half chatting to the lads and doing the crossword.

BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

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