BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

end of the road · 04-04-2017 01:54PM

BoatMad wrote: »

you leave out a few points

â€¦..and was owned by the state

â€¦. and was bailed out by the state from time to time

â€¦.. and was acknowledged to be inefficient and couldn't compete when routes were deregulated

â€¦. and had to be privatised to allow it to survived

The similarities with BE get a bit more striking

it didn't have to be privatized to allow it to survive. it was privatized because that was government policy. it could have very easily remained within ownership of the state and survived if the will to make it so was there.

GM228 · 04-04-2017 01:55PM

The NTA has confirmed it is witholding €125,000 per day (Mon-Fri) and €75,000 per day (Sat-Sun) in PSO payments for each day of the strike. So far the strike has cost BE €1.3m in lost PSO payments.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/bus-%C3%A9ireann-has-clocked-up-1-3m-in-fines-so-far-because-of-strike-1.3036242?mode=amp

fxotoole · 04-04-2017 01:56PM

GM228 wrote: »

The NTA has confirmed it is witholding â‚¬125,000 per day (Mon-Fri) and â‚¬75,000 per day (Sat-Sun) in PSO payments for each day of the strike. So far the strike has cost BE â‚¬1.3m in lost PSO payments.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/bus-%C3%A9ireann-has-clocked-up-1-3m-in-fines-so-far-because-of-strike-1.3036242?mode=amp

Not to mention loss of revenue from fares

BoatMad · 04-04-2017 01:58PM

end of the road wrote: »

it didn't have to be privatized to allow it to survive. it was privatized because that was government policy. it could have very easily remained within ownership of the state and survived if the will to make it so was there.

The airline itself , who , you might expect , are the experts , were the ones recommending privatisation and in particular selling into a bigger group

Aerlingus could not have continued in state ownership , without becoming a lame duck , hidebound by PS work practices, excessive costs and inability to raise capital. it would have rapidly become the BE of airlines

just like BE, there is no future in public bus ownership .

Idbatterim · 04-04-2017 02:05PM

I do support Unions and I think workers need to have the right to organise and work leverage to their own advantage but I think this situation has been irretrievable from the start. Management should have been proactively dealing with the issue 18 - 24 months ago and essentially forced a Union showdown at that time. They let it go on too late, and the staff are now taking a desperate course of action because they believe if they concede death by a thousand cuts will occur in the wake of these specific changes.

but you cant show down with them here, until there is is a crisis! This situation may actually bring about a resolution, as it seems there isnt anywhere for anyone to hide! These lunatics were looking for increases up until recently! Its played out the way I expected it to, nothing gets down here until crisis point and even then, resolution of the mess is still damn difficult, looks at the property crisis!

Like I said when this kicked off with the luas drivers last year, capitulate once and they will be back every few years looking for their pound of flesh. This is a god send of a chance, to start sorting out shambolic transport here... Next up the shambles that is IR! outside of the GDA or perhaps even in it, rip up the tracks, tarmac it and let our totally deregulated bus industry make maximum use of it...

BoatMad · 04-04-2017 02:11PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

but you cant show down with them here, until there is is a crisis! This situation may actually bring about a resolution, as it seems there isnt anywhere for anyone to hide! These lunatics were looking for increases up until recently! Its played out the way I expected it to, nothing gets down here until crisis point and even then, resolution of the mess is still damn difficult, looks at the property crisis!

Like I said when this kicked off with the luas driveres earlier, capitulate once and they will be back every few years looking for their pound of flesh. This is a god send of a chance, to start sorting out shambolic transport here... Next up the shambles that is IR! rip up the tracks, tarmac it and let our totally deregulated bus industry make maximum use of it...

WHile I dont support the current BE strike , you're approach would generate the very shambles you claim to suggest is already here.

IR is not a shambles, railways are a shambles , but we need to maintain an alternative to roads, especially for mass transit

personally the UK Has shown the way on railways

Idbatterim · 04-04-2017 02:14PM

BoatMad wrote: »

WHile I dont support the current BE strike , you're approach would generate the very shambles you claim to suggest is already here.

IR is not a shambles, railways are a shambles , but we need to maintain an alternative to roads, especially for mass transit

personally the UK Has shown the way on railways

the state of our railways is a joke. The state wont fund it properly along with seemingly poor management of IR. As usual the only thing world class about it is the employee wages...

It doesnt even bring people to where they want to go in Dublin for the most part, is barely quicker than a bus in 2017 and costs (understandably) a lot more than a bus...

Bass Reeves · 04-04-2017 02:23PM

end of the road wrote: »

it didn't have to be privatized to allow it to survive. it was privatized because that was government policy. it could have very easily remained within ownership of the state and survived if the will to make it so was there.

You are incorrect again. Aer Lingus could no longer recieve any state aid the EU comission had already ruled against IIRC the Italian and a Scandanavian state owned airlines that recieved state aid. Both had to repay this aid. Over time if it remained in state owner ship it would have been starved of investment and would have withered unless it had access to equity from investment firms. These were unlikly to invest in it unless it was moved out of state ownership. It stagnated for 20 years. Over the same period Ryanair gre to be the bigges airline in Europe

end of the road · 04-04-2017 02:25PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

but you cant show down with them here, until there is is a crisis! This situation may actually bring about a resolution, as it seems there isnt anywhere for anyone to hide! These lunatics were looking for increases up until recently! Its played out the way I expected it to, nothing gets down here until crisis point and even then, resolution of the mess is still damn difficult, looks at the property crisis!

Like I said when this kicked off with the luas drivers last year, capitulate once and they will be back every few years looking for their pound of flesh. This is a god send of a chance, to start sorting out shambolic transport here...

there was no capitulation at luas. both sides came to a deal.

Idbatterim wrote: »

Next up the shambles that is IR! outside of the GDA or perhaps even in it, rip up the tracks, tarmac it and let our totally deregulated bus industry make maximum use of it...

what a load of rubbish. there is plenty of space for the bus industry on the current road system, and deregulation isn't happening because it has been proven a failure and ridiculously bad for customers. the absolutely ridiculous idea of removing the railway, destroying good infrastructure that has huge potential and can move huge amounts of people and goods, which currently provides a service to people who would otherwise not use public transport, provides some competition to road transport, has no merrit. in my view such nonsense suggestion would only be suggested especially in terms of within the GDA , by a pro-road/anti-rail extremist who belongs in the 1950s, or someone who is very very deluded. the cost to bring rail formations up to road standards when we have lots of road capacity which is of much better quality then any road made from a rail formation could ever be, would be absolutely ridiculous. the railway is viable, it is going nowhere for now. time to get used to it, as a road and rail transport system is the only option for a modern forward thinking country.

LuckyLloyd · 04-04-2017 02:26PM

Idbatterim wrote:

but you cant show down with them here, until there is is a crisis! This situation may actually bring about a resolution, as it seems there isnt anywhere for anyone to hide! These lunatics were looking for increases up until recently! Its played out the way I expected it to, nothing gets down here until crisis point and even then, resolution of the mess is still damn difficult, looks at the property crisis!

Like I said when this kicked off with the luas drivers last year, capitulate once and they will be back every few years looking for their pound of flesh. This is a god send of a chance, to start sorting out shambolic transport here... Next up the shambles that is IR! outside of the GDA or perhaps even in it, rip up the tracks, tarmac it and let our totally deregulated bus industry make maximum use of it...

IR seems to have strong passenger loading on main routes at peak times so I find your suggestion of tarmac over the tracks bizarre.

As for the first point, BE management have been fundamentally incompetent to only be forcing the issue when the danger of insolvency is imminent. That is disgraceful infact.

The LUAS drivers came out with a satisfactory conclusion to their action and will use their leverage again. BE staff engaged in the Expressway part of the business have no leverage. They are receiving poor leadership presently. But trying to equate the two contexts is pointless. They are different, and that applies to all angles - BE drivers thinking that they can replicate negotiating power of DB or LUAS drivers is just as silly as those who fantasise about the breakup of all Unions thinking that a windup of BE will provide a template for the destruction of IR.

BoatMad · 04-04-2017 02:34PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

IR seems to have strong passenger loading on main routes at peak times so I find your suggestion of tarmac over the tracks bizarre.

In reality IR carries less then 1% of traffic on interurban routes , passenger revenue is slightly up post recession. IR overall economic position is of course a shambles , but then thats railways for you

As for the first point, BE management have been fundamentally incompetent to only be forcing the issue when the danger of insolvency is imminent. That is disgraceful infact.

BE management has highlighted this issue repeatedly , Intransigence in the staff , who refuse to acknowledge the bleeding obvious , is the root cause of where we are at . BE management is no better or worse in that regard, its hands are tied

The LUAS drivers came out with a satisfactory conclusion to their action and will use their leverage again.

NO they won't, because they exploited a quirky situation , where Transdev picked up the tab. When the franchise ends, it will be interesting to see whats happens as I suspect TD will not reapply

LUas workers have no further opportunity to exercise any muscle , because all that would happen is the franchise would fail

BE staff engaged in the Expressway part of the business have no leverage. They are receiving poor leadership presently. But trying to equate the two contexts is pointless. They are different.

The are certainly getting badly represented by their unions, being dragged into a position where BE will fail and they will end up with poorer conditions one way or the other

The correct approach would have been to negotiate the issue of overtime , not the desultory approach ( they even were asking for a 3% rise )

Idbatterim · 04-04-2017 02:35PM

what a load of rubbish. there is plenty of space for the bus industry on the current road system,

you tried getting into Dublin on bus from outside the M50 at peak times?

I understand why the proposal seems like a joke. But in this joke country when it comes to planning, they wont invest anything. Look at what just happened to MN and DU. Given they wont spend anything, I honestly think it has it merits. How much are IR currently losing, including subventions?

We have spent a stagerring sum here on roads, way over the top in some areas. Rail was totally neglected. If they spent virtually nothing on rail during the boom, what will they spend now?

there was no capitulation at luas. both sides came to a deal.

the deal was a lot better for the drivers in my opinion. It leads me back to a simple question, there is an expectation every few years of a salary increase. I have to ask why, when they are already over paid?

BE drivers thinking that they can replicate negotiating power of DB or LUAS drivers is just as silly as those who fantasise about the breakup of all Unions thinking that a windup of BE will provide a template for the destruction of IR.

yeah IR is far more complex, I gave my simple solution. This employee first, customer last, keep the cash flowing for a joke of a service, is farcical!

monument · 04-04-2017 02:41PM

ClovenHoof wrote: »

The BE drivers are getting a lot of unhinged and hysterical support from lefty radicals and knacker types with Palestinian flags as their profile pic on Facebook.

You can tell the game is up when all you have left are the trash of humanity championing you. This time next week BE will be a best forgotten footnote in the history of Irish public transport.

Banned for a week for that.

-- moderator

BoatMad · 04-04-2017 02:52PM

I understand why the proposal seems like a joke. But in this joke country when it comes to planning, they wont invest anything. Look at what just happened to MN and DU. Given they wont spend anything, I honestly think it has it merits. How much are IR currently losing, including subventions?

You basically understand , that these projects are too expensive for the country at present, to stay within the fiscal pact. ( or maybe you dont )

We have spent a stagerring sum here on roads, way over the top in some areas. Rail was totally neglected. If they spent virtually nothing on rail during the boom, what will they spend now?

Actually under the Green coalition , and post Knockcrockery , IR/IE have received considerable capital investment , way way more investment per passenger then say BE or roads

yeah IR is far more complex, I gave my simple solution. This employee first, customer last, keep the cash flowing for a joke of a service, is farcical!

You seem to have a sclerotic view of IE, one minute you're looking for DU , the next your basically closing them down

end of the road · 04-04-2017 03:02PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

you tried getting into Dublin on bus from outside the M50 at peak times?

i have yes. that's just life. when you rely on bus transport and road transport as your main form of transport this is what you will get.

Idbatterim wrote: »

I understand why the proposal seems like a joke. But in this joke country when it comes to planning, they wont invest anything. Look at what just happened to MN and DU. Given they wont spend anything, I honestly think it has it merits. How much are IR currently losing, including subventions?

it has no merrit. there is no justification for it, it would bring nothing to the table. mn and DU aren't built because government don't want to build them. destroying the rest of the rail network won't build them either.

Idbatterim wrote: »

We have spent a stagerring sum here on roads, way over the top in some areas. Rail was totally neglected. If they spent virtually nothing on rail during the boom, what will they spend now?

i don't know, it is a waiting game.

Idbatterim wrote: »

the deal was a lot better for the drivers in my opinion. It leads me back to a simple question, there is an expectation every few years of a salary increase. I have to ask why, when they are already over paid?

they aren't overpaid. that is the thing. everyone expects a salary increase at some stage. we would all like it. of course being able to get it is a different story.

Idbatterim wrote: »

yeah IR is far more complex, I gave my simple solution. This employee first, customer last, keep the cash flowing for a joke of a service, is farcical!

your solution is also farcical and is cutting off a nose to spite a face.
IE'S issues are very easy to solve. we need the will, the management to do it. most of the staff agree that the company needs to improve it's service drastically. what is needed is good leadership from both management, the NTA and government. passengers also need to get involved in pressuring the company on issues. we all have a part to play but we need to get enough people to play it.

Idbatterim · 04-04-2017 03:03PM

You basically understand , that these projects are too expensive for the country at present, to stay within the fiscal pact. ( or maybe you dont )

no I understand that these projects are down the bottom of the pile when it comes to what the government in this rich country decide to spend the massive yearly budget on...

It is time that all projects were looked and and vital ones like this should have been given the go ahead, if massive vital schemes can be shelved to re-invent the wheel on perfectly good schemes. Then why should smaller ones go ahead, just so it can be seen as the NTA and government are doing something?

You seem to have a sclerotic view of IE, one minute you're looking for DU , the next your basically closing them down

if they are only ever going to talk about it and no intention of building it, I am going on their actions over decades, then yeah, tarmac it, open it to buses and save a fortune on the IR shambles... there's another problem taken out right there

your solution is also farcical and is cutting off a nose to spite a face.
IE'S issues are very easy to solve. we need the will, the management to do it. most of the staff agree that the company needs to improve it's service drastically. what is needed is good leadership from both management, the NTA and government. passengers also need to get involved in pressuring the company on issues. we all have a part to play but we need to get enough people to play it.

yeah of course they are easy to solve in theory, very easy. But it turns out in this country, change is nigh on impossible and resisted on every front... I welcome the day when things change, but doubt Ill be around for it...

they aren't overpaid. that is the thing. everyone expects a salary increase at some stage. we would all like it. of course being able to get it is a different story.

we will see what happens when the contract goes to tender next, Id say the previous dispute is a valuable learning curve. Dealing with militant "cause we are worth it" head bangers!

BoatMad · 04-04-2017 04:34PM

IE'S issues are very easy to solve. we need the will, the management to do it. most of the staff agree that the company needs to improve it's service drastically. what is needed is good leadership from both management, the NTA and government. passengers also need to get involved in pressuring the company on issues. we all have a part to play but we need to get enough people to play it.

Id take issue with you here. I do think IE management is poor and has become focused on a " network southeast : approach of many trains with poor comfort and service. Railways cant survive if they emulate busses, busses are much better at being busses. Trains needs to provide " an alternative " to road transport . That may involve making them quicker ( difficult in Ireland ) or more comfortable with better services , or cheaper or whatever. The current bus on rails mentality is not , in my view , a wholly successful one

Secondly as a peson that knows a lot of IE staff , I disagree they have any real answers either ,

and yes we agree that transport planning is poor in Ireland, lack of joined up thinking. A primary reason is that Dublin and the GDA cannot get the type of priority " thinking " and " funding " needed. The " one for everyone in the audience " FF populist approach is the reason for that ,.

Peppa Pig · 04-04-2017 04:53PM

NBRU accept invite from WRC. Yet they will still stay on strike. :rolleyes:
Indo

Dermot O'Leary wrote:

The NBRU says their first item on the agenda will be a "complete review of the managerial structure at Bus Éireann".
General Secretary Dermot O'Leary says they remain opposed to any route closures.

Newstalk

Fairly short talks so

BuilderPlumber · 04-04-2017 05:02PM

NBRU are a total disgrace and are showing themselves to be this more and more the longer this extremism goes on. NBRU are just yet another extremist ultra-nationalist organisation that in its own mind thinks it is some sort of a revolutionary movement when it is anything of the sort. It is a trade union that represent s a very small minority versus the large majority who have been affected in all sorts of ways by its actions. An example needs to be made of them and this should be the last time extremism like this ever happens in an industrial dispute in Ireland. Let's curb this kind of thing: sure, workers are entitled to strike and organisations should be allowed to protest but not like this shower.

I also feel that there should be more trains between towns and cities too. Shortsightedness again saw the discontinuation of this service, closure of railways and over-reliance on buses. Trains get from point A to point B on time and would solve a lot of the problems that have dogged BE. Trains could move quickly without delay thus serving towns yet not delaying journeys. Admittedly, some towns BE serve are chronic to get in and out of and this prompts people to use the City Link, Dublin Coach and JJ Kavanaghs that avoid these. More trains and less buses by the CIE is the way to go.

BoatMad · 04-04-2017 05:02PM

Peppa Pig wrote: »

NBRU accept invite from WRC. Yet they will still stay on strike. :rolleyes:
Indo

Newstalk

Fairly short talks so

well They'll have to discuss NBRUs position on North Korea, and the Chinese islands in the south china sea . That could take a few days

BoatMad · 04-04-2017 05:05PM

I also feel that there should be more trains between towns and cities too. Shortsightedness again saw the discontinuation of this service, closure of railways and over-reliance on buses. Trains get from point A to point B on time and would solve a lot of the problems that have dogged BE. Trains could move quickly without delay thus serving towns yet not delaying journeys. Admittedly, some towns BE serve are chronic to get in and out of and this prompts people to use the City Link, Dublin Coach and JJ Kavanaghs that avoid these. More trains and less buses by the CIE is the way to go.

The unfortunate fact is that most of Irelands railways were built to move cattle not people . This means that many rail lines, short of a complete rebuilding , are speed limited. This wasn't so obvious in the pre-motorway situation , but its painfully revealed now, and its why the line say from Gorey to Dublin takes 2 hours at an average speed of 30mph and the Bus takes 1 hour 10

Mebuntu · 04-04-2017 05:37PM

According to Noone some of his members have been sacked recently. I wonder if they were some of the illegal picket men.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0404/865211-bus-eireann/

Peppa Pig · 04-04-2017 05:43PM

Mebuntu wrote: »

According to Noone some of his members have been sacked recently. I wonder if they were some of the illegal picket men.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0404/865211-bus-eireann/

Noone wrote:

"The strike by workers and the picketing of Bus Ã‰ireann depots will continue. This is due to fact that some of our members have been dismissed from their jobs in recent days.

If they were unfairly dismissed they can go to the EAT, but no - lets stay on strike.

Strange that they have not being crowing about what they were "sacked" for. Must have been fair dismissal so.

BoatMad · 04-04-2017 05:49PM

looks in general as if there is an edging closer to going to the WRC and lifting the strike, I think its dawning on the union

fxotoole · 04-04-2017 06:16PM

BoatMad wrote: »

looks in general as if there is an edging closer to going to the WRC and lifting the strike, I think its dawning on the union

Too little, too late. After 11 days of strikes, BE is in a more precarious financial position and given that we've been hearing nothing but hardline rhetoric from the NBRU, I don't see them agreeing to the kind of cuts that are necessary to keep BE solvent

L1011 · 04-04-2017 06:23PM

NBRUs statements today show that they don't even have the vaguest idea of how the company operates; and totally puts paid to the idea that they have a coherent plan.

"take the managers wages" doesn't plug the gap. Doesn't show much of the constantly touted 'solidarity' either.

kiaronh · 04-04-2017 06:28PM

fxotoole wrote: »

Too little, too late. After 11 days of strikes, BE is in a more precarious financial position and given that we've been hearing nothing but hardline rhetoric from the NBRU, I don't see them agreeing to the kind of cuts that are necessary to keep BE solvent

The drivers and the NBRU have painted themselves into a corner on this one. The government can't cough up extra money to support BE's commercial routes. BE can't survive for much longer without cuts. Hard to see this ending well for drivers.

BoatMad · 04-04-2017 06:46PM

kiaronh wrote: »

The drivers and the NBRU have painted themselves into a corner on this one. The government can't cough up extra money to support BE's commercial routes. BE can't survive for much longer without cuts. Hard to see this ending well for drivers.

It wont , what we are seeing is the NRBU trashing around in a death rattle

trellheim · 04-04-2017 06:59PM

I know its en vogue to bash NBRu but SIPTU aren't blameless either - they can go back to work but are they ?

Also firing on strike workers would have made the papers ... any links anyone or is it more nbru spin ?

Fred Swanson · 04-04-2017 07:03PM

This post has been deleted.

BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

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