Why is Switzerland so rich?

Impetus · 31-03-2017 9:06pm #1

The GDP per person in "German speaking" Switzerland (they don't speak German except to foreigners) is = EUR 150'000 per capita in many cantons.

Switzerland has an efficient political system, voters decide on policies, not just who will be politicians in power. They (the electorate) vote every few months. (The ballot papers are posted out to each registered voter and s/he can send them by post or turn up on Sunday at their church of any denomination and put their posted to them ballot in the box.) The ballot results are usually published by 15h on Sunday. The ballot papers are machine readable - so you have e-voting with a paper trail and fast results. Best of all worlds.

Taxes are low as a result - not just corporate income tax - but personal income tax and VAT (which maxes out at 8%). Cars as a result are the cheapest in Europe. Tap water in Zurich is only = EUR 1 per m3. With no crappy chemicals added. Irish water contains fluoride and other crap. Switzerland has a brilliant health service - it is all private with compulsory insurance and if you are poor your canton pays the premium. Social services are better than in Scandinavia. Doctors get paid per task done. Not an annual salary.

Income tax: A (worst case not married) resident of Canton Zug pays about 14% on an income of 100'000 EUR. The 26 Swiss cantons compete with each other on tax rates. The federal government gets a tiny amount of tax collected (unlike corrupt Ireland and most of the rest of the EU, where centralized taxes dominate to pay a bloated public non-service, who seem to be focused on their pension and little else).

Most of the tax in CH goes to Cantons (counties) and towns and even what in Irish terms would be regarded as suburbs - eg Tallaght would have different tax rates for companies and people compared with D4. And while this may sound complicated, you have a single tax payment system, and the cantonal tax is derived as a percentage of the federal tax eg 120% of the federal rate for town x. No additional bureaucracy.

There is no talk of a 'Brexit' within the Swiss confederation. Despite the low taxes it has the best public transport in the world. With 70km rail tunnels (250 km/h) to defeat the Alps. The Swiss banknotes are un-forgeable, unlike the EUR notes. Unlimited public transport on trains, buses and trams etc costs CHF 3'860 pa. Zurich has about 16 tram lines and 10 suburban rail lines. The trams run every 5 min or so. Why bother with a car? Everything runs on electricity which is largely renewable.

Why does the EU / Ireland have to be so third rate?

Video: https://youtu.be/dSLs5G4SPP4

Jim2007 · 31-03-2017 11:49pm

I must be living in the wrong Switzerland! I paid 23k in health insurance for a family of four, my tax rate is 23% and no matter how often I vote the same faces stay in government because of a mutual agreement between the political parties.

In other words don't believe all you hear!

A_Sober_Paddy · 31-03-2017 11:50pm

Gold reserves which have a dark history

Sam Russell · 01-04-2017 11:14am

They are rich because they look after everyone else's money and keep some of it for themselves, like all bankers. They also keep secrets about other people's money, particularly from taxmen worldwide.

They also keep out of wars, particularly World Wars.

Impetus · 01-04-2017 8:27pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

I must be living in the wrong Switzerland! I paid 23k in health insurance for a family of four, my tax rate is 23% and no matter how often I vote the same faces stay in government because of a mutual agreement between the political parties.

In other words don't believe all you hear!

Which Canton do you live in? Move to Zug or similar, if you want to reduce your tax bill. You have that choice in CH. I pay EUR 5'000 for one person for health insurance. How many people included in your premium.

Impetus · 01-04-2017 9:50pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

They are rich because they look after everyone else's money and keep some of it for themselves, like all bankers. They also keep secrets about other people's money, particularly from taxmen worldwide.

They also keep out of wars, particularly World Wars.

Switzerland no longer hides peoples money. CRS etc. Switzerland's wealth comes from high quality design, manufacturing and services. CH has a current account surplus of $75 billion for 8 million people. Germany has only got a surplus of $285 billion for 10x the population of Switzerland.

Virtually everything you buy in Switzerland is Swiss made - aside from cars.

And as far as looking after money is concerned, they do a good job, like they do with most other things. If you live in Ireland or anywhere else in the EU you can open up a bank account in Switzerland and disclose it to your local revenue authority where you are resident. There are no exchange controls in the EU. Your account will be multi-currency - ie you lodge $ 100 and it will be kept in a USD account until you need it. Irish and British banks rip off customers by forcing them to convert foreign currency - unless they are big companies and have separate currency accounts. Switzerland has the best investment funds of any country, whose shares are traded on stock exchanges (unlike Irish and British funds which are largely bought and sold (at a price) by the fund manager. Ripping people off. Your Swiss bank account can also hold precious metals, shares, funds, virtually everything except your house. And when you log in to online banking you see everything and your net worth.

But banking is just a tiny side of Swiss life. If you land at Zurich airport at 22h at night, there will be a massive Migros supermarket open (until 23h) which sells fresh fish and fresh everything else. The post office is open late at the airport. There is a huge railway station which can take you virtually anywhere in Switzerland direct from the airport to your destination - sometimes with a short stop in Zurich HB.

When you go to a Swiss restaurant you can buy the amount of wine you want - you are not forced to buy a bottle or half bottle as in Ireland or a glass. You can specify 1dl, 2dl, 3dl, 4dl 5dl etc and a carafe of that size will arrive.

Zurich has the best road traffic system in the world. The traffic signals are prioritized for public transport. And the typical tram is every 3 to 5 minutes which means an average waiting time of 2 min.

Swiss Rail has the best mobile phone app in the world. It covers all means of transport (train, tram, bus, boat, funicular, etc. This is a TV / internet advert for it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0gcViQz6aM

(She is speaking Zuri lingo - not German - but you will get the message - she can draw a line with pictures on her Samsung phone from her origin to her destination (could be a pic of her grandchild who lives near a tram station in Zurich) or she might want to get a train to visit friends in Monaco.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0gcViQz6aM

The announcers voice at the end is the same as you hear on any Swiss train. On Irish trains all one hears over and over is stupid announcements in Irish and English before each station. In Switzerland all one hears is "Nächste halt Bern". If you are in Geneva it will be in French. If you are at an airport station it will also be in English.

More: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boNH2lOKors

This 'little old lady' is a Vice President of Swiss Rail and does the TV ads as a sideline. She has actually worked on the app.

A train from Geneva Airport to Zurich airport is faster than flying. Not so a Dublin Cork train - aside from the fact that there are no Dublin Cork flights anymore. In bankrupt Ireland. There are two motorways between Zurich and Geneva (almost) - and two railway lines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SilO0VojjBU

SBB app info in English

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzN4A7VD4hA

She speaks Spanish too - which is not a Swiss language

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDU7KTPty_w

Zurich has the most dense network of trams of any city in the world

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9-y4SyO2sY

Dublin has two tram lines - not yet interconnected and there are no line numbers - just colours presumably aimed at the illiteracy of the population?

Dublin airport has no train station. Cork has no tram lines. Incompetent Ireland living in a dysfunctional "European Union".

Back in the day, when ejits in Ireland were talking metro for Dublin, the Zurich government visited Dublin to try and persuade people that underground rail was not a solution. Ten years later, fortunately, due to Irish procrastination and inability to manage finances, there is no metro. Zurich had two referenda on metro - on both occasions the initiative was kicked out. Leaving Zurich to develop its tram and double deck suburban high speed rail system. Zurich now has the best public transport in the world. And it is not just trains and trams. https://thecircle.ch/en an office development in Zurich airport (almost 200'000 m2) allows one to walk off a plane or train and to your office in five or so minutes from completion of the building. Switzerland is in Schengen (unlike Ireland) so if you have hand baggage, you just walk out into the street if you are coming from another Schengen country.

All Ireland seems to wish for is to retain a common travel area with a bunch of terrorists who are anti-European and racist. And Ireland will willingly give into them, because native Irish business is incapable of serving the greater European market in most cases. I live on the continent and the quality of packaging of most Irish stuff (the bit you can find) makes one want to vomit. Aside from a bottle of Jameson, which is really a French owned brand.

Conclusion

Ireland is a nation of morons who can speak few languages and is badly governed and over centralized.

The EU is an incompetent dictatorship with no real democracy.

Switzerland is what the EU should be and EU states should be like Swiss cantons ( some Swiss states are republics - eg Geneva) where tax competition and free markets dominate the agenda and the focus is on quality.

Impetus · 01-04-2017 10:06pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

They are rich because they look after everyone else's money and keep some of it for themselves, like all bankers. They also keep secrets about other people's money, particularly from taxmen worldwide.

No they don't. They send XML reports of bank activity to the customers' country of residence. (Ironically this suits the Swiss. It allows foreign governments (non Swiss) to pass even higher tax laws and make other countries even less tax competitive than CH - to pay their civil servant pensions etc. Meanwhile Switzerland has a lean government where every big spend (over 10 mil CHF in Zurich canton for example) needs a public vote. VAT is 8% max. The capital value of the pension of the dumbo chief of the Irish Central Bank during the financial crisis is probably more than 10 mil CHF.
I have no time for banks that help people conceal money from their governments. Neither do I have time for a country where civil servants who can't be fired, earning about 13'000 EUR pa more than private sector workers. And they have an inflation proof pension, unlike the majority of the population.

An electorate who allows this is really dumb. Aside from the rain, I do not want to live in such an environment. And I hate rain and damp air.

Sam Russell wrote: »

They also keep out of wars, particularly World Wars.

Ireland pretends to do the same

Impetus · 01-04-2017 11:04pm

Yvette Michael's best TV ad (in English)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1HVjZGo1-M&list=PL2y5uecQPrF0vGAQcP7RFiKvmiAtgqG7c&index=12

She built the app (with tech assistance). I don't know how much she is earning on Swiss Rail as a vice president. But she would be worth at least EUR 500'000 to run "CIE". + perhaps EUR 200'000 bonus to put up with Irish damp / rain when she commutes from Zurich to Dublin.

I am focusing on Yvette because she is typically Swiss - extremely competent, multi-lingual. And despite her age, she gets it (unlike gov.ie). Not to mention strikebound CIE - give her another 100'000 EUR to handle that lot.

To be clear her app can work out a journey from 123 Merrion Road to Fota Wildlife Park in Cork - taking all connections into account. And if her grandchild lives near Fota, the app allows her to put a pic of the child and do a drag from her local tram stop in Zurich to Fota. The app works out the connections and the price and charges her Visa/MC/Amex (sick Irish rail do not accept AmEx). I suspect that Yvette has a GA which allows her first class unlimited travel on all modes of public transport in Switzerland. Cheaper than a car, if you have to buy it. With the app, when the ticket checker visits a carriage, he won't bother you - because his hand-held computer will tell him which people on which seats have already paid using the app, It uses the train's wifi. Only people with paper tickets risk ticket inspection hassle. On French trains, one's ticket is only checked in about one in five trips. On Irish rail you have to line up at the barrier (often not working) to check your ticket, followed by (if you are travelling on first class) another ejit stopping you trying to enter the carriage until he sees your ticket. And when you leave the train be sure to have the ticket for another barrier check.

To be precise my example of a trip to Fota was fictional because this app can't access Irish public transport info. It will work out journeys in Switzerland door to door, and Germany, Monaco, France etc - even England. But not Ireland because Ireland does not contribute to the Hafas Europe wide database of public transport to work out connections. Typical for an island behind an island. Super-insular.

Travel in Ireland is an awful experience. Few motorway toll booths take payment cards (Visa etc) - unlike everywhere else in Europe. Long toll queues. No online motorway service areas. Crowded offline service areas with cramped toilets and crappy food. The entire motorway network is focused on Dublin - so if you want to go somewhere else it is generally a bog road.

It would be challenging for Disney with all the computer animation capabilities to come up with a country that is more poorly managed than IRL.

User feedback on her app: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l23GOHTjjPQ&index=13&list=PL2y5uecQPrF0vGAQcP7RFiKvmiAtgqG7c

This is a lot more than an app - it is how society moves from A to B and a driver of public transport.

Zurich HB station at 7 in the morning onwards:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNTlVKeAVBQ

There are nearly 300 shops and super markets in that station which allow one do to virtually anything en route home. Designed to keep people from driving to shop or to work,

realitykeeper · 02-04-2017 11:15am

One reason Switzerland is considered so rich is because a third of the worlds money is kept there. The Bank of International Settlements is based in Basel, Switzerland. This is the central bank of central banks. This is where the EU central bank, the US Fed and hundreds of other central banks around the world lodge their billions and they pay interest on it. They make withdrawals when they need to issue it in their domestic economies.

Sam Russell · 02-04-2017 6:54pm

Impetus wrote: »

Switzerland no longer hides peoples money. .

That is now. Numbered Swiss bank accounts were the stuff of lots of crime thrillers.

You are right though, they do run their country very well though and do not make the mistakes we make. And they have been doing it right since forever.

Pity we cannot even do a little right. We do not even make parish pumps here.

CelticRambler · 02-04-2017 7:11pm

A few times a year, I work close to the Swiss border. Our French evening events are always chock-a-block with Swiss people who've come over for the night. Why? Because they can stay up and make noise until 2, 3 or 6 in the morning! :cool: Try doing that in Switzerland ...

Based on my travels around "middle Europe" it's also the most expensive place to shop, stay and be amused. In fact I found food, fuel and entry fees so expensive on my last trip there (October last) that I managed to not spend a single CHF all week. :pac:

realitykeeper · 03-04-2017 5:45am

In recent times, the countries that have been doing things right for many decades have started to make mistakes. These countries include Switzerland and the Scandinavian countries but as economies go, they are still quite good. Recent errors will not become apparent for some time and in any case their mistakes are very small compared to those of other countries. A country or a continent can live on it`s reputation for past glories long after the fire has gone out.

Cookie_Monster · 03-04-2017 5:59am

realitykeeper wrote: »

In recent times, the countries that have been doing things right for many decades have started to make mistakes. These countries include Switzerland and the Scandinavian countries but as economies go, they are still quite good. Recent errors will not become apparent for some time and in any case their mistakes are very small compared to those of other countries. A country or a continent can live on it`s reputation for past glories long after the fire has gone out.

such as?

893bet · 03-04-2017 6:30am

I think average gdp is around 70k. Disingenuous to quote select cantons.

Their Swiss franc can't be counterfeit? Quick Google shows this to be incorrect.

A quick Google shows lots to be incorrect in fact.

Still enjoy your new life over there.

Peregrinus · 03-04-2017 7:26am

Impetus wrote: »

. . . Switzerland has an efficient political system, voters decide on policies, not just who will be politicians in power. They (the electorate) vote every few months. (The ballot papers are posted out to each registered voter and s/he can send them by post or turn up on Sunday at their church of any denomination and put their posted to them ballot in the box.) The ballot results are usually published by 15h on Sunday. The ballot papers are machine readable - so you have e-voting with a paper trail and fast results. Best of all worlds.

A lot of Swiss would dispute that the political system is efficent. The voting system is efficient, but that's not the same thing at all.

The degree of direct democracy that they have in Switzerland may have many advantages, but it has two disadvantages. First, efficient and all as the voting system is, the requirement to effect policy change through local and/or cantonal referendums is a real barrier. It's slow, it's cumbersome and it requires a fair number of people to do a fair bit of work to get a question put to the ballot, and to work for an affirmative answer. This doesn't make for rapid policy responses.

Secondly, it doesn't make for joined-up, coherent policy. Everybody likes low taxes and good services, but it's only through fully participating in a budgetary process in which the same people are responsible for decisions about raising revenue and decisions about public expenditure, and in which these decisions are intrinsically linked, that you get coherence and rationality.

All of this tends to promote conservatism in public policy. The Swiss, famously, were very slow to grant women the vote, uniformly and comprehensively. Most local and cantonal ballot questions are rejected, because the Swiss have learned that, with the disjointed policy-making that is the result of their system of direct democracy, affirming a proposal in a referendum can have unforeseen or unintended consequences.

One other point worth bearing in mind is that the Swiss system works as it does in Switzerland at least partly because of distinctive Swill cultural traits. One of these is a high degree of conformism (and social rewards in the form of esteem and approval for those who conform). Debating as we know it in Ireland is simply unheard of in Swiss universities, and argument as a pastime (as practiced in pubs in Ireland, and over family dinner tables) is met with blank bemusement. In Swiss culture, to express disagreement with somebody is rude or hostile, and therefore it is rarely done. And, as a quid pro quo, it's considered impolite to express views or opinions that other people are likely to disagree with; if you hold such view or opinions, it is polite to keep them to yourself. None of this makes for a lively political discourse, as you can imagine, people's existing political positions are rarely challenged, which contributes to the generally conservative tone of Swiss politics. And the Swiss have a succession of coalition governments not out of necessity, but because they consider finding consensus and common ground to be a virtue.

Political institutions which work in this context will not necessarily work well in other societies.

realitykeeper · 03-04-2017 5:14pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

such as?

In a recent referendum the Swiss choose to uncouple their currency from gold. I think that was a mistake. Scandinavian countries have become more socialist in recent times, that is a mistake.

That said, other countries have been far more irresponsible than Switzerland or Scandinavian countries and for a lot longer.

RobertKK · 03-04-2017 6:03pm

I was there is December, it is a very well kept country.
The trains run like clockwork, things are done on time.
The water is like my water from my own well, pure and with no chemicals.

It is a country that benefits from banking, many homegrown multinationals like Nestle, Novartis, Roche and others I forget.
It benefits from having neighbours like Germany, France, Italy and Austria.

But it is a very expensive country, so they need to be paid well to live there. I was there for a week on a €20 Ryanair return flight.
Food is more expensive as is alcohol, would be very expensive to be an alcoholic in Switzerland...

I have nothing bad to say about the Swiss, especially when I left my new iPhone on the train, and it was waiting for me in the next main station.
I don't care if they are rich, I found the people to be decent and when I needed it, I found them honest.
The trains and water is the best in the world...

Impetus · 03-04-2017 6:29pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

That is now. Numbered Swiss bank accounts were the stuff of lots of crime thrillers.

And in thrillers, the concept belongs. The Swiss operated banking secrecy since the holocaust days, but were forced to give it up by high tax countries such as France - a country where about 60% of the population are paid directly or indirectly by the French State. Because most of Switzerland's prosperity comes from manufacturing and general services exports - and they needed foreign markets to export to. It is more important to them than the banking industry.

Impetus · 03-04-2017 6:41pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

In a recent referendum the Swiss choose to uncouple their currency from gold. I think that was a mistake. Scandinavian countries have become more socialist in recent times, that is a mistake.

That said, other countries have been far more irresponsible than Switzerland or Scandinavian countries and for a lot longer.

I would disagree. The CHF is strong and will remain so because a) the balance of payments surplus the country generates and b) the world thinks of the Swiss as financially prudent. Credibility. It does not need gold backing. It has not been linked to gold since 2000 - and has risen in value ever since. You don't need a gold link 'discipline' when you have a well managed economy. The politicians blame the EU for various regulations so they can pass them in their own state without political 'blame'. And that is largely the reason why the EU is so hated in many countries. Gold is similar, when a currency is linked to it. It allows financial discipline to be enforced without anybody directly to blame.

The idea that the pompously named "European Banking Authority" would move to Dublin post Brexit is not credible, especially after the Celtic Tiger era.

Impetus · 03-04-2017 6:43pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

One reason Switzerland is considered so rich is because a third of the worlds money is kept there. The Bank of International Settlements is based in Basel, Switzerland. This is the central bank of central banks. This is where the EU central bank, the US Fed and hundreds of other central banks around the world lodge their billions and they pay interest on it. They make withdrawals when they need to issue it in their domestic economies.

The BIS is like the EU. It is just a bureaucracy. Switzerland is a good place to locate it, because the Swiss are clear thinking.

Impetus · 03-04-2017 6:45pm

CelticRambler wrote: »

A few times a year, I work close to the Swiss border. Our French evening events are always chock-a-block with Swiss people who've come over for the night. Why? Because they can stay up and make noise until 2, 3 or 6 in the morning! :cool: Try doing that in Switzerland ...

Based on my travels around "middle Europe" it's also the most expensive place to shop, stay and be amused. In fact I found food, fuel and entry fees so expensive on my last trip there (October last) that I managed to not spend a single CHF all week. :pac:

If one is into night life, aside from Zurich and Geneva some other country is probably a better option. Nobody is forcing anybody to live in Switzerland

Impetus · 03-04-2017 6:47pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

In recent times, the countries that have been doing things right for many decades have started to make mistakes. These countries include Switzerland and the Scandinavian countries but as economies go, they are still quite good. Recent errors will not become apparent for some time and in any case their mistakes are very small compared to those of other countries. A country or a continent can live on it`s reputation for past glories long after the fire has gone out.

While I agree that things change over time, I don't think that Switzerland is living on a past reputation. Things have changed over the past 20 or 30 years in Switzerland - and everywhere else too, and not always for the best.

Sam Russell · 03-04-2017 6:58pm

In the last 10 years, the CHF has appreciated by 50% vs the Euro. That is why everything appears expensive in Switzerland. Swiss products are preferred by the Swiss, so not affected by cheaper imports.

Impetus · 03-04-2017 7:09pm

A number of people have alluded to Switzerland as being expensive. This is not entirely true. It is the fluctuation in the exchange rate of the CHF.

In 1970, for example $1 was worth CHF 4.32. Today a dollar will just about get you 1 CHF. So for Americans, Switzerland is over 4x as expensive as it was in 1970.

That change has been driven by export and services surpluses.

Meanwhile the US has a large balance of payments deficit every year. The US balance of trade deficit will be around 600 bn USD in 2017.

Having said that most European currencies have not fallen as much as the $ because they also have trade surpluses. Germany would be as expensive as Switzerland (almost) if it returned to a new DEM.

Switzerland has the best infrastructure of any country in the world, as well as a highly skilled workforce who can speak numerous languages. It is on a different planet. Ireland needs to copy many Swiss concepts, instead of rubber-stamping EU directives into Irish law, almost verbatim. No other EU country is as dumb when it comes to shooting itself in the foot, obeying 'Brussels'.

Impetus · 03-04-2017 7:10pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

In the last 10 years, the CHF has appreciated by 50% vs the Euro. That is why everything appears expensive in Switzerland. Swiss products are preferred by the Swiss, so not affected by cheaper imports.

We were typing at the same time!

gctest50 · 03-04-2017 7:19pm

RobertKK wrote: »

...... many homegrown multinationals like Nestle, Novartis, Roche and others I forget.
It benefits from having neighbours like Germany, France, Italy and Austria.
...

Some of the Switzerland's largest companies, including Nestle, ignored reports of Nazi atrocities and pursued business-as-usual with neighboring Germany, according to the reports that were issued as part of a five-year examination of Switzerland's actions in World War II.

The ICE singled out the Basel chemical companies Ciba and Sandoz (now merged into Novartis), which implemented the Nazis' Aryanisation policies in a bid to win lucrative supply contracts from the Third Reich.

It found that Ciba's Berlin branch in 1933 fired its Jewish board of directors and supervisory board members and replaced them with "Aryan" Germans. At the same time, the report said, Sandoz replaced the Jewish chairman of its German subsidiary with an "Aryan" businessman.

Capt'n Midnight · 03-04-2017 7:31pm

Ruschlikon is a small Swiss village that makes more from Zambia's copper exports than Zambia does.

Transfer pricing and tax loopholes mean the good people of Ruschlikon don't have to live on a dollar a day like their counterparts.

CelticRambler · 03-04-2017 10:06pm

Impetus wrote: »

If one is into night life, aside from Zurich and Geneva some other country is probably a better option. Nobody is forcing anybody to live in Switzerland

Of course they're not.

Doesn't stop the Swiss outnumbering the French 3-to-1 at our trad music & dance events in the east of the country though. (And yes, they do have their own workshops and "céilí"-style dances ... but they finish at about ten which is about when ours start! :pac:

Cookie_Monster · 04-04-2017 8:48am

realitykeeper wrote: »

In a recent referendum the Swiss choose to uncouple their currency from gold. I think that was a mistake.

any reason, or just because. There are far more valuable and rare elements than gold to base a currency on, it's an outdated concept and then change has hardly be detrimental.

realitykeeper wrote: »

Scandinavian countries have become more socialist in recent times, that is a mistake.

so what's wrong with being socialist, is this more of your "the poor can go **** themselves" attitude? to the workhouse with you comrade!

realitykeeper wrote: »

That said, other countries have been far more irresponsible than Switzerland or Scandinavian countries and for a lot longer.

or simply, not as responsible perhaps?

johnnyskeleton · 04-04-2017 12:49pm

Mod note:

Link dumps deleted

realitykeeper · 05-04-2017 1:09am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

any reason, or just because. There are far more valuable and rare elements than gold to base a currency on, it's an outdated concept and then change has hardly be detrimental.
so what's wrong with being socialist, is this more of your "the poor can go **** themselves" attitude? to the workhouse with you comrade!

or simply, not as responsible perhaps?

The Swiss have chosen not to base their currency on gold or anything else, it is free floating. That in itself would be ok if they keep tight control on the supply of new Francs. Gold tends to be considered the safe haven asset for historical reasons. Certainly the west can ignore thousands of years of history and forget about gold as just another metal but Russia, China and India are all buying more gold. If the western economies crash, the real world economy will move to the eastern hemisphere. Western attitudes and opinions will not matter to anyone in the real world.

What is wrong with being socialist? Everything! It doesn`t work. I would rather go to the workhouse than a soviet era gulag.

Jim2007 · 06-04-2017 4:11pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

The Swiss have chosen not to base their currency on gold or anything else, it is free floating.

We kept the gold, all we did is detach it from the currency so there is not right to have part of it converted into gold on demand. The SNB has reserves of over CHF 600 billion with which to defend the currency if necessary. In fact it is probably the only European central bank with deep enough pockets to take on the ECB in market operations when necessary. It has confirmed that it has and will continue to conduct market operations in defence of Euro bonds in the future as it is a major holder of such bonds - equal to about the deficit of the seven biggest Euro Groups countries.

Jim2007 · 06-04-2017 4:22pm

Impetus wrote: »

Ireland needs to copy many Swiss concepts, instead of rubber-stamping EU directives into Irish law, almost verbatim. No other EU country is as dumb when it comes to shooting itself in the foot, obeying 'Brussels'.

How long have you been living here (Switzerland)? You should know that we do in fact comply with EU rules under the bilateral agreements.

Jim2007 · 06-04-2017 4:28pm

Impetus wrote: »

CelticRambler wrote: »

A few times a year, I work close to the Swiss border. Our French evening events are always chock-a-block with Swiss people who've come over for the night. Why? Because they can stay up and make noise until 2, 3 or 6 in the morning! :cool: Try doing that in Switzerland ...

Based on my travels around "middle Europe" it's also the most expensive place to shop, stay and be amused. In fact I found food, fuel and entry fees so expensive on my last trip there (October last) that I managed to not spend a single CHF all week. :pac:

If one is into night life, aside from Zurich and Geneva some other country is probably a better option. Nobody is forcing anybody to live in Switzerland

The typical expat problem, most Swiss people and young people in particular are unwilling to blow a couple of hundred CHFs on a night out!

Jim2007 · 06-04-2017 4:48pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

One of these is a high degree of conformism (and social rewards in the form of esteem and approval for those who conform). Debating as we know it in Ireland is simply unheard of in Swiss universities, and argument as a pastime (as practiced in pubs in Ireland, and over family dinner tables) is met with blank bemusement. In Swiss culture, to express disagreement with somebody is rude or hostile, and therefore it is rarely done.

Well first of all unlike let's call it the English speaking world for what of a better word, Switzerland and may other central European countries place the emphasis not on the individual but on the community and one's responsibility to act in the best interests of the community and not purely in one's own interests. And yes there is plenty of debate and argument over politics and other topics, that is you understand the language and are integrated into the community. In fact in may cases there is far too much debate to the point that it drives me to tears.

Tabnabs · 06-04-2017 4:53pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

One other point worth bearing in mind is that the Swiss system works as it does in Switzerland at least partly because of distinctive Swill cultural traits. One of these is a high degree of conformism (and social rewards in the form of esteem and approval for those who conform). Debating as we know it in Ireland is simply unheard of in Swiss universities, and argument as a pastime (as practiced in pubs in Ireland, and over family dinner tables) is met with blank bemusement. In Swiss culture, to express disagreement with somebody is rude or hostile, and therefore it is rarely done. And, as a quid pro quo, it's considered impolite to express views or opinions that other people are likely to disagree with; if you hold such view or opinions, it is polite to keep them to yourself. None of this makes for a lively political discourse, as you can imagine, people's existing political positions are rarely challenged, which contributes to the generally conservative tone of Swiss politics. And the Swiss have a succession of coalition governments not out of necessity, but because they consider finding consensus and common ground to be a virtue.

Political institutions which work in this context will not necessarily work well in other societies.

This is a very pertinent observation. You could very easily substitute Swiss for Danish, Swedish or Norwegian. It's often the reason people confuse Scandinavian countries for socialist. Nothing could be further from the truth. Poor Sweden even believed this line themselves for a while and got burned pursuing genuine socialist policies (and quickly took a sharp turn to the right).

Until you have lived with an Irish perspective in these countries, it's hard to fully understand how much conformism and social cohesion permeates these societies, to an uncomfortable level on many occasions.

Impetus · 06-04-2017 11:24pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

How long have you been living here (Switzerland)? You should know that we do in fact comply with EU rules under the bilateral agreements.

I totally agree. Switzerland is in Schengen. Ireland is not (making Ireland not a full EU member). Ireland's goal seems to me to be in the "Common travel area" (a racist, British colony travel zone, which Brexit turns into an X2 racist zone) - causing needless delays for travellers to/from Ireland showing passports etc. French, German and Italian are Swiss official languages in CH. And everybody speaks English (which is a bastard mix of German and French for the most part). Travel ticket machines in Switzerland take Euro coins as well as CHF for example. The Swiss are the most European on the planet, The EU is struggling badly with unemployment, identity, and undemocratic centralization on Brussels.

Switzerland is 26 countries coming together to form a federation. Each country in CH has its own local voting platform (eg Geneva is a republic with a parliament and senate smaller than Cork city and county - yet it feels like a mega city because of the intelligent way it is run) - lots of trams, wide streets, railway station at the airport - same as Zurich (which is bigger), tram lines and electrically powered buses. Cork has none of this despite its larger population. One has to wonder why?

Zurich has a similar pop to Dublin. Zurich airport has fewer passengers than Dublin. Yet it has 3 terminals and 3 runways and a mega shopping operation where you can buy fresh salmon or C5 envelopes at 22h30 after landing - via self service checkouts or manual. It is probably bigger than any normal supermarket in Ireland. Open 7 days a week within walking distance of all three terminals.

The EU needs to replicate Switzerland instead of trying to destroy it as the Brussels Bureaucrats are naively (or perhaps maliciously?) trying to do. Switzerland has a far larger army then the EU and unlike the dysfunctional EU Switzerland educates its citizens well. Switzerland is living and operating in the next century, while the EU is living in what seems to me to be a politically fused, tech-phobic drunken 1980s binge. Not to mention the corruption and technical incompetence of EU politicians compared with their Swiss counterparts.

Jim2007 · 07-04-2017 4:03pm

Impetus wrote: »

Jim2007 wrote: »

How long have you been living here (Switzerland)? You should know that we do in fact comply with EU rules under the bilateral agreements.

I totally agree. Switzerland is in Schengen. Ireland is not (making Ireland not a full EU member). Ireland's goal seems to me to be in the "Common travel area" (a racist, British colony travel zone, which Brexit turns into an X2 racist zone) - causing needless delays for travellers to/from Ireland showing passports etc. French, German and Italian are Swiss official languages in CH. And everybody speaks English (which is a bastard mix of German and French for the most part). Travel ticket machines in Switzerland take Euro coins as well as CHF for example. The Swiss are the most European on the planet, The EU is struggling badly with unemployment, identity, and undemocratic centralization on Brussels.

Switzerland is 26 countries coming together to form a federation. Each country in CH has its own local voting platform (eg Geneva is a republic with a parliament and senate smaller than Cork city and county - yet it feels like a mega city because of the intelligent way it is run) - lots of trams, wide streets, railway station at the airport - same as Zurich (which is bigger), tram lines and electrically powered buses. Cork has none of this despite its larger population. One has to wonder why?

Zurich has a similar pop to Dublin. Zurich airport has fewer passengers than Dublin. Yet it has 3 terminals and 3 runways and a mega shopping operation where you can buy fresh salmon or C5 envelopes at 22h30 after landing - via self service checkouts or manual. It is probably bigger than any normal supermarket in Ireland. Open 7 days a week within walking distance of all three terminals.

The EU needs to replicate Switzerland instead of trying to destroy it as the Brussels Bureaucrats are naively (or perhaps maliciously?) trying to do. Switzerland has a far larger army then the EU and unlike the dysfunctional EU Switzerland educates its citizens well. Switzerland is living and operating in the next century, while the EU is living in what seems to me to be a politically fused, tech-phobic drunken 1980s binge. Not to mention the corruption and technical incompetence of EU politicians compared with their Swiss counterparts.

You agree with what??? You were asked a question about how long you have lived in Switzerland? Everything you post suggest that you are either the typical fresh of the boat expat or a member of the SVP (main right wing party for those not in the know).
To start with the Schengen Agreement has nothing to do with the Switzerlands obligations to the EU! Under the bilateral agreement we:
- Accept FMOP
- Accept rulings of the ECJ
- Accept all product standardisation rules
- We contribute to the structural funds
- We participate in research and education programs
- We are not allowed to use passporting for financial services
In reality we have all the trappings of an EU member state without a seat at the table!
And no everyone does not speak English, in fact if you spend sometime at all living in the country side you will discover that apart from school kids and some young people, very few people can speak English beyond say A2 level!
Historically and even today, one of the main reason that the shopping centre at Zurich airport is so well developed is because it is not subject the same commercial restrictions that exist else where relating to opening hours, staffing and compensation payments. People travel out to Zurich airport to do their shopping when shops are closed at 4:00pm on Saturday, when there is no late night shopping in their area, no 24 hour shops etc... beyond the limited offer the kiosk at their local train station. Hell, I live about an hour from the airport and even we and our neighbours shop there from time to time.
Switzerland has an active army of about 22K, which means that it is most defiantly not bigger that the EU, in fact most of the major economies have an active force of more than 5 times that figure. As for the militia, last time a I requested one of my guys be absented for training I was informed by his commanding officer that he was the only one in the platoon authorised and trained to drive the tank and if he was not there they could not participating in the main training exercise! One of my other colleagues recently returned early from training because although they had the software for measuring a fall out, they had neither manuals nor training so the exercises were cancelled. On top of this many communities for one reason or another have decided not to finance the local firing range for the militia nor even train or finance the civil defence unit. And of course we should not forget our air force that as we have discovered only fly office hours and we're dependent on France/German/Italy to come to our aid at all other times.
And then we have the UK style patter of the undemocratic EU....
- Yet every single change to the EU treaties had be accepted by the Irish people in Referenda
- Junker is where he is because in the last parliamentary elections parties representing a more integrated EU won the majority of the seats
- The commission is approved, held accountable and can be removed the democratically elected parliament
- Most members of the council are in fact elected members of their own states
- The ECJ appointed are agreed by the council
- The court of auditors are political appointees
And so on, in fact while all Irish referenda results are binding on the government, where as only some Swiss referenda are in fact binding on the government, the recent FMOP being one example.
As for corruption, in Switzerland at present there are investigations going on in the awarding of public contracts in at least 3 cantons, there is the investigation into the awarding of federal IT contracts, the investigation into Blatter's time as a senior army procurement officer... and those are only the ones I happen to remember of the top of my head.
In short every country has it's positives and negatives points, Switzerland is no different. You need to take off the rose coloured glasses and see Switzerland for what it is, a great country, but with faults and failings just like every other one.

Bit cynical · 07-04-2017 5:55pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

- Yet every single change to the EU treaties had be accepted by the Irish people in Referenda

I'm not an expert in this but I think it is only certain treaty changes that require a referendum here. Things that affect sovereignty would be an example.

Jim2007 wrote: »

And so on, in fact while all Irish referenda results are binding on the government, where as only some Swiss referenda are in fact binding on the government, the recent FMOP being one example.

I would say that it is the constitution that is binding rather than the referendum in Ireland. Changes require a referendum to authorize the government to make a particular change. But the referendum itself is not binding; it authorizes - but does not compel - the proposed change. The government is free not to proceed but politically, like in Brexit, the result of not proceeding would be problematical.

Impetus · 07-04-2017 8:29pm

gctest50 wrote: »

Some of the Switzerland's largest companies, including Nestle, ignored reports of Nazi atrocities and pursued business-as-usual with neighboring Germany, according to the reports that were issued as part of a five-year examination of Switzerland's actions in World War II.

The ICE singled out the Basel chemical companies Ciba and Sandoz (now merged into Novartis), which implemented the Nazis' Aryanisation policies in a bid to win lucrative supply contracts from the Third Reich.

It found that Ciba's Berlin branch in 1933 fired its Jewish board of directors and supervisory board members and replaced them with "Aryan" Germans. At the same time, the report said, Sandoz replaced the Jewish chairman of its German subsidiary with an "Aryan" businessman.

This is in the past - new board of directors etc.

Companies trade with Britain and America despite the million deaths they caused in Iraq. Fake news weapons of mass destruction as an excuse. Both countries do everything they can to destroy the EUR currency and the EU on an ongoing basis. No country in the world has been responsible for innocent peoples' deaths than Britain since the tenth century.

Why does Ireland trade with Anglo-Saxonia at all? At least Swiss goods and services are of high quality, unlike British and American junk. And Switzerland is compliant. Meanwhile Trump Tweets messages to destroy the EU. And May travels down the same road.

Ireland needs a barbed wire border with NI - unless IRL and NI are prepared to join Schengen. I have no problem with NI remaining in GB politically, as long as they wish. Switzerland is in Schengen - but not the EU. People travelling between NI and GB can disclose their passport details on checkin for a flight to/from GB. One can fly from Zurich to Iceland (neither are EU countries) without showing a passport or ID card) because both are in Schengen. One can't fly from Zurich to Ireland without multiple ID card or passport inspections, queues and delays. And the Irish ID card (stupidly called a passport card) does not work in automated borders - neither does the book passport. Forcing one to line up for half an hour for manual inspection. Meanwhile every other Schengen citizen can fly through the system automatically. This is an OUTRAGEOUS situation to be in. And the Irish morons placidly couldn't give in to this bureaucratic mess!! thus keeping themselves in kept in third class. No Swiss person would put up with this - even though CH is not in the EU

Impetus · 07-04-2017 9:04pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

You agree with what??? You were asked a question about how long you have lived in Switzerland? Everything you post suggest that you are either the typical fresh of the boat expat or a member of the SVP (main right wing party for those not in the know).
To start with the Schengen Agreement has nothing to do with the Switzerlands obligations to the EU! Under the bilateral agreement we:
- Accept FMOP
- Accept rulings of the ECJ
- Accept all product standardisation rules
- We contribute to the structural funds
- We participate in research and education programs
- We are not allowed to use passporting for financial services
In reality we have all the trappings of an EU member state without a seat at the table!
And no everyone does not speak English, in fact if you spend sometime at all living in the country side you will discover that apart from school kids and some young people, very few people can speak English beyond say A2 level!
Historically and even today, one of the main reason that the shopping centre at Zurich airport is so well developed is because it is not subject the same commercial restrictions that exist else where relating to opening hours, staffing and compensation payments. People travel out to Zurich airport to do their shopping when shops are closed at 4:00pm on Saturday, when there is no late night shopping in their area, no 24 hour shops etc... beyond the limited offer the kiosk at their local train station. Hell, I live about an hour from the airport and even we and our neighbours shop there from time to time.
Switzerland has an active army of about 22K, which means that it is most defiantly not bigger that the EU, in fact most of the major economies have an active force of more than 5 times that figure. As for the militia, last time a I requested one of my guys be absented for training I was informed by his commanding officer that he was the only one in the platoon authorised and trained to drive the tank and if he was not there they could not participating in the main training exercise! One of my other colleagues recently returned early from training because although they had the software for measuring a fall out, they had neither manuals nor training so the exercises were cancelled. On top of this many communities for one reason or another have decided not to finance the local firing range for the militia nor even train or finance the civil defence unit. And of course we should not forget our air force that as we have discovered only fly office hours and we're dependent on France/German/Italy to come to our aid at all other times.
And then we have the UK style patter of the undemocratic EU....
- Yet every single change to the EU treaties had be accepted by the Irish people in Referenda
- Junker is where he is because in the last parliamentary elections parties representing a more integrated EU won the majority of the seats
- The commission is approved, held accountable and can be removed the democratically elected parliament
- Most members of the council are in fact elected members of their own states
- The ECJ appointed are agreed by the council
- The court of auditors are political appointees
And so on, in fact while all Irish referenda results are binding on the government, where as only some Swiss referenda are in fact binding on the government, the recent FMOP being one example.
As for corruption, in Switzerland at present there are investigations going on in the awarding of public contracts in at least 3 cantons, there is the investigation into the awarding of federal IT contracts, the investigation into Blatter's time as a senior army procurement officer... and those are only the ones I happen to remember of the top of my head.
In short every country has it's positives and negatives points, Switzerland is no different. You need to take off the rose coloured glasses and see Switzerland for what it is, a great country, but with faults and failings just like every other one.

The question I asked is why is it so rich? You are bitching, presumably as a resident, who wasn't born in the country. All us people who travel around the planet 'bitch' about local issues. Nowhere is perfect. I did not say I lived in Switzerland. I live far further south - I hate the cold. Switzerland's weather is pleasant in the summertime. I have visited the country regularly since I was age 18. So I suspect that I have a more globally objective view of the place having moved around the world. You can't fault Swiss public transport or other infrastructure. Or the quality of hospital care. Or telecommunications or other services which are often government delivered. Or its multi-lingual open-ness - fine you might be able to find someone in a mountain village who only speaks the local 'Swiss German' which is not German at all. Call it a big Gaeltacht in Germanic terms. (Accepting that Irish and English are totally different language groups unlike Zuri lingo and high German).

As far as shopping is concerned I don't like Swiss opening hours laws and if I was to live in the Zurich region it would be close to an Sbahn line that ran to the airport - not just for shopping but for travel in general. Migros at Zurich airport is a pleasure to shop in. When you get to the self checkout you are not bothered with weight validation issues for your shopping as in France, Ireland and Tesco. No need to wait for supervisors. No stupid error messages. And no booze age checks! (for a different reason).

Political corruption in CH is probably at 1%. The further south and west and north and east one goes, the higher the %age of corruption. Name me a less corrupt state aside from Switzerland and Monaco.

BKtje · 08-04-2017 6:41am

I'm also a Swiss resident and while I love this country and currently want to live nowhere else but it's far from perfect. Most of the info that jim2007 gives is accurate. While parts of the country are quite modern, other aspects are stuck far in the past.

Why is the country so rich? I don't know but I'm sure it has something to do with the long work weeks that many people work. In general the Swiss work long weeks of between 40 and 50 working hours (i.e add breaks on top of that). I think the average is about 42. This has been the case for a long time now.

bmwguy · 08-04-2017 7:27am

If Switzerland was epitomised by one person it would be Roger Federer. Ruthlessly efficient, well prepared, universally liked and respected, mega wealthy, controversy free, if a little too nice and boring. But at the end of the day, when all pros and cons taken into account, much better than the competition.

CelticRambler · 08-04-2017 9:49am

Impetus wrote: »

Forcing one to line up for half an hour for manual inspection. Meanwhile every other Schengen citizen can fly through the system automatically. This is an OUTRAGEOUS situation to be in. And the Irish morons placidly couldn't give in to this bureaucratic mess!! thus keeping themselves in kept in third class. No Swiss person would put up with this - even though CH is not in the EU

Sounds like you haven't travelled much through Europe in recent times. :rolleyes: The last three times I crossed the Swiss border (in a French-registered vehicle), the border guards/customs were pulling just about all the Swiss cars to the side to check them out. The last time I crossed from Germany to France, there was a 45-minute queue while the French carried out a visual inspection of vehicles entering France. Similarly when I drove from Belgium into France a few weeks ago, where it made me sad to see signs of life again in the old abandonned border points. And the last time I boarded a 'plane (in Switzerland, as it happens) my passport was checked three times before I took my seat ...

I think all this ID checking is a waste of time, as I've travelled enough to know how to get around the controls, and I've no doubt that anyone who felt they "needed" to hide their passage would know all the same tricks. But what on earth has this got to do with Switzerland's riches?

Jim2007 · 08-04-2017 10:50am

Impetus wrote: »

You are bitching, presumably as a resident, who wasn't born in the country. All us people who travel around the planet 'bitch' about local issues. Nowhere is perfect. I did not say I lived in Switzerland. I live far further south - I hate the cold. Switzerland's weather is pleasant in the summertime. I have visited the country regularly since I was age 18.

No I'm bitching, I'm a Swiss German speaking dual citizen who has lived most of my adult life in Switzerland, just short of thirty years, or on secondment for one or other of the Swiss multinationals abroad. And as such all I'm doing is pointing out to someone who visits occasionally using rose coloured glasses that he is not seen us for what we are.

Jim2007 · 08-04-2017 10:59am

BKtje;103156739
Why is the country so rich? I don't know but I'm sure it has something to do with the long work weeks that many people work. In general the Swiss work long weeks of between 40 and 50 working hours (i.e add breaks on top of that). I think the average is about 42. This has been the case for a long time now.

It is true that we work a longer week, but on the other hand we don't work overtime as a rule. On the other hand US colleagues also complain about the pace - no long coffee breaks nor chats at the water cooler. People are there to work not socialise - most people know very little about their colleagues private life and in some cases do not even call each other by first names.

Jim2007 · 08-04-2017 11:11am

Impetus wrote: »

No need to wait for supervisors. No stupid error messages. And no booze age checks! (for a different reason).

For heven sakes! All self-checks have at least one or more often two or three people assigned to monitor the system, because of course we have errors, malfunctions, weight problems and suspected minors buying alcohol need to be controlled.

Jim2007 · 08-04-2017 9:41pm

And we have now reopened trade talks with the EU after accepting that FMOP must remain!
EU and Switzerland to reopen trade and political talks

Like I said more or less an EU member without a seat at the decision table.

Carlos Orange · 08-04-2017 10:46pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

And we have now reopened trade talks with the EU after accepting that FMOP must remain!

It is interesting that the UK is leaving the EU after a non binding referendum about getting out and Switzerland is keeping free movement of people after a binding referendum to stop it.

Jim2007 · 09-04-2017 1:16pm

psinno wrote: »

Jim2007 wrote: »

And we have now reopened trade talks with the EU after accepting that FMOP must remain!

It is interesting that the UK is leaving the EU after a non binding referendum about getting out and Switzerland is keeping free movement of people after a binding referendum to stop it.

It was not a binding referendum in the sense of an Irish one. The government and the parliament gave it a broad interpretation because it was clear that it was not the intention of the people to break the bilateral agreement. That left the right wingers with the option of going for a second referenda but they total failed to get the numbers - 13K out of a required 50K. In addition there was an unitive for a reversal referendum to be held later this year that had raised 110K of the required 50K.
In reality this was an attempt by the Right Wing (SVP) to achieve their objective of breaking the bilateral agreement by the back door, via a popular cause and they have failed. In addition the intention now is to change the constitution to prevent such attempts in the future, so they will have to go after the bilateral itself, which is a non starter.
The big danger for the UK though is that the Swiss will do a deal on passporting, bank secrecy no longer bars the way and they are willing to accept ECB oversight just as the accept ECJ rulings on trade.

Carlos Orange · 09-04-2017 6:33pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

It was not a binding referendum in the sense of an Irish one. Â The government and the parliament gave it a broad interpretation because it was clear that it was not the intention of the people to break the bilateral agreement. Â

I gather the referendum specified a quota system. Is that not true? If it did specify a quota system why was it not the intention of the voters to have one?

Why is Switzerland so rich?

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