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Why is Switzerland so rich?
Comments
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realitykeeper wrote: »The Swiss have chosen not to base their currency on gold or anything else, it is free floating.
We kept the gold, all we did is detach it from the currency so there is not right to have part of it converted into gold on demand. The SNB has reserves of over CHF 600 billion with which to defend the currency if necessary. In fact it is probably the only European central bank with deep enough pockets to take on the ECB in market operations when necessary. It has confirmed that it has and will continue to conduct market operations in defence of Euro bonds in the future as it is a major holder of such bonds - equal to about the deficit of the seven biggest Euro Groups countries.0 -
Ireland needs to copy many Swiss concepts, instead of rubber-stamping EU directives into Irish law, almost verbatim. No other EU country is as dumb when it comes to shooting itself in the foot, obeying 'Brussels'.
How long have you been living here (Switzerland)? You should know that we do in fact comply with EU rules under the bilateral agreements.0 -
The typical expat problem, most Swiss people and young people in particular are unwilling to blow a couple of hundred CHFs on a night out!CelticRambler wrote: »A few times a year, I work close to the Swiss border. Our French evening events are always chock-a-block with Swiss people who've come over for the night. Why? Because they can stay up and make noise until 2, 3 or 6 in the morning! :cool: Try doing that in Switzerland ...
Based on my travels around "middle Europe" it's also the most expensive place to shop, stay and be amused. In fact I found food, fuel and entry fees so expensive on my last trip there (October last) that I managed to not spend a single CHF all week. :pac:
If one is into night life, aside from Zurich and Geneva some other country is probably a better option. Nobody is forcing anybody to live in Switzerland0 -
Peregrinus wrote: »One of these is a high degree of conformism (and social rewards in the form of esteem and approval for those who conform). Debating as we know it in Ireland is simply unheard of in Swiss universities, and argument as a pastime (as practiced in pubs in Ireland, and over family dinner tables) is met with blank bemusement. In Swiss culture, to express disagreement with somebody is rude or hostile, and therefore it is rarely done.
Well first of all unlike let's call it the English speaking world for what of a better word, Switzerland and may other central European countries place the emphasis not on the individual but on the community and one's responsibility to act in the best interests of the community and not purely in one's own interests. And yes there is plenty of debate and argument over politics and other topics, that is you understand the language and are integrated into the community. In fact in may cases there is far too much debate to the point that it drives me to tears.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 14511
Peregrinus wrote: »
One other point worth bearing in mind is that the Swiss system works as it does in Switzerland at least partly because of distinctive Swill cultural traits. One of these is a high degree of conformism (and social rewards in the form of esteem and approval for those who conform). Debating as we know it in Ireland is simply unheard of in Swiss universities, and argument as a pastime (as practiced in pubs in Ireland, and over family dinner tables) is met with blank bemusement. In Swiss culture, to express disagreement with somebody is rude or hostile, and therefore it is rarely done. And, as a quid pro quo, it's considered impolite to express views or opinions that other people are likely to disagree with; if you hold such view or opinions, it is polite to keep them to yourself. None of this makes for a lively political discourse, as you can imagine, people's existing political positions are rarely challenged, which contributes to the generally conservative tone of Swiss politics. And the Swiss have a succession of coalition governments not out of necessity, but because they consider finding consensus and common ground to be a virtue.
Political institutions which work in this context will not necessarily work well in other societies.
This is a very pertinent observation. You could very easily substitute Swiss for Danish, Swedish or Norwegian. It's often the reason people confuse Scandinavian countries for socialist. Nothing could be further from the truth. Poor Sweden even believed this line themselves for a while and got burned pursuing genuine socialist policies (and quickly took a sharp turn to the right).
Until you have lived with an Irish perspective in these countries, it's hard to fully understand how much conformism and social cohesion permeates these societies, to an uncomfortable level on many occasions.0 -
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How long have you been living here (Switzerland)? You should know that we do in fact comply with EU rules under the bilateral agreements.
I totally agree. Switzerland is in Schengen. Ireland is not (making Ireland not a full EU member). Ireland's goal seems to me to be in the "Common travel area" (a racist, British colony travel zone, which Brexit turns into an X2 racist zone) - causing needless delays for travellers to/from Ireland showing passports etc. French, German and Italian are Swiss official languages in CH. And everybody speaks English (which is a bastard mix of German and French for the most part). Travel ticket machines in Switzerland take Euro coins as well as CHF for example. The Swiss are the most European on the planet, The EU is struggling badly with unemployment, identity, and undemocratic centralization on Brussels.
Switzerland is 26 countries coming together to form a federation. Each country in CH has its own local voting platform (eg Geneva is a republic with a parliament and senate smaller than Cork city and county - yet it feels like a mega city because of the intelligent way it is run) - lots of trams, wide streets, railway station at the airport - same as Zurich (which is bigger), tram lines and electrically powered buses. Cork has none of this despite its larger population. One has to wonder why?
Zurich has a similar pop to Dublin. Zurich airport has fewer passengers than Dublin. Yet it has 3 terminals and 3 runways and a mega shopping operation where you can buy fresh salmon or C5 envelopes at 22h30 after landing - via self service checkouts or manual. It is probably bigger than any normal supermarket in Ireland. Open 7 days a week within walking distance of all three terminals.
The EU needs to replicate Switzerland instead of trying to destroy it as the Brussels Bureaucrats are naively (or perhaps maliciously?) trying to do. Switzerland has a far larger army then the EU and unlike the dysfunctional EU Switzerland educates its citizens well. Switzerland is living and operating in the next century, while the EU is living in what seems to me to be a politically fused, tech-phobic drunken 1980s binge. Not to mention the corruption and technical incompetence of EU politicians compared with their Swiss counterparts.0 -
You agree with what??? You were asked a question about how long you have lived in Switzerland? Everything you post suggest that you are either the typical fresh of the boat expat or a member of the SVP (main right wing party for those not in the know).How long have you been living here (Switzerland)? You should know that we do in fact comply with EU rules under the bilateral agreements.
I totally agree. Switzerland is in Schengen. Ireland is not (making Ireland not a full EU member). Ireland's goal seems to me to be in the "Common travel area" (a racist, British colony travel zone, which Brexit turns into an X2 racist zone) - causing needless delays for travellers to/from Ireland showing passports etc. French, German and Italian are Swiss official languages in CH. And everybody speaks English (which is a bastard mix of German and French for the most part). Travel ticket machines in Switzerland take Euro coins as well as CHF for example. The Swiss are the most European on the planet, The EU is struggling badly with unemployment, identity, and undemocratic centralization on Brussels.
Switzerland is 26 countries coming together to form a federation. Each country in CH has its own local voting platform (eg Geneva is a republic with a parliament and senate smaller than Cork city and county - yet it feels like a mega city because of the intelligent way it is run) - lots of trams, wide streets, railway station at the airport - same as Zurich (which is bigger), tram lines and electrically powered buses. Cork has none of this despite its larger population. One has to wonder why?
Zurich has a similar pop to Dublin. Zurich airport has fewer passengers than Dublin. Yet it has 3 terminals and 3 runways and a mega shopping operation where you can buy fresh salmon or C5 envelopes at 22h30 after landing - via self service checkouts or manual. It is probably bigger than any normal supermarket in Ireland. Open 7 days a week within walking distance of all three terminals.
The EU needs to replicate Switzerland instead of trying to destroy it as the Brussels Bureaucrats are naively (or perhaps maliciously?) trying to do. Switzerland has a far larger army then the EU and unlike the dysfunctional EU Switzerland educates its citizens well. Switzerland is living and operating in the next century, while the EU is living in what seems to me to be a politically fused, tech-phobic drunken 1980s binge. Not to mention the corruption and technical incompetence of EU politicians compared with their Swiss counterparts.
To start with the Schengen Agreement has nothing to do with the Switzerlands obligations to the EU! Under the bilateral agreement we:
- Accept FMOP
- Accept rulings of the ECJ
- Accept all product standardisation rules
- We contribute to the structural funds
- We participate in research and education programs
- We are not allowed to use passporting for financial services
In reality we have all the trappings of an EU member state without a seat at the table!
And no everyone does not speak English, in fact if you spend sometime at all living in the country side you will discover that apart from school kids and some young people, very few people can speak English beyond say A2 level!
Historically and even today, one of the main reason that the shopping centre at Zurich airport is so well developed is because it is not subject the same commercial restrictions that exist else where relating to opening hours, staffing and compensation payments. People travel out to Zurich airport to do their shopping when shops are closed at 4:00pm on Saturday, when there is no late night shopping in their area, no 24 hour shops etc... beyond the limited offer the kiosk at their local train station. Hell, I live about an hour from the airport and even we and our neighbours shop there from time to time.
Switzerland has an active army of about 22K, which means that it is most defiantly not bigger that the EU, in fact most of the major economies have an active force of more than 5 times that figure. As for the militia, last time a I requested one of my guys be absented for training I was informed by his commanding officer that he was the only one in the platoon authorised and trained to drive the tank and if he was not there they could not participating in the main training exercise! One of my other colleagues recently returned early from training because although they had the software for measuring a fall out, they had neither manuals nor training so the exercises were cancelled. On top of this many communities for one reason or another have decided not to finance the local firing range for the militia nor even train or finance the civil defence unit. And of course we should not forget our air force that as we have discovered only fly office hours and we're dependent on France/German/Italy to come to our aid at all other times.
And then we have the UK style patter of the undemocratic EU....
- Yet every single change to the EU treaties had be accepted by the Irish people in Referenda
- Junker is where he is because in the last parliamentary elections parties representing a more integrated EU won the majority of the seats
- The commission is approved, held accountable and can be removed the democratically elected parliament
- Most members of the council are in fact elected members of their own states
- The ECJ appointed are agreed by the council
- The court of auditors are political appointees
And so on, in fact while all Irish referenda results are binding on the government, where as only some Swiss referenda are in fact binding on the government, the recent FMOP being one example.
As for corruption, in Switzerland at present there are investigations going on in the awarding of public contracts in at least 3 cantons, there is the investigation into the awarding of federal IT contracts, the investigation into Blatter's time as a senior army procurement officer... and those are only the ones I happen to remember of the top of my head.
In short every country has it's positives and negatives points, Switzerland is no different. You need to take off the rose coloured glasses and see Switzerland for what it is, a great country, but with faults and failings just like every other one.0 -
I'm not an expert in this but I think it is only certain treaty changes that require a referendum here. Things that affect sovereignty would be an example.- Yet every single change to the EU treaties had be accepted by the Irish people in Referenda
I would say that it is the constitution that is binding rather than the referendum in Ireland. Changes require a referendum to authorize the government to make a particular change. But the referendum itself is not binding; it authorizes - but does not compel - the proposed change. The government is free not to proceed but politically, like in Brexit, the result of not proceeding would be problematical.And so on, in fact while all Irish referenda results are binding on the government, where as only some Swiss referenda are in fact binding on the government, the recent FMOP being one example.0 -
Some of the Switzerland's largest companies, including Nestle, ignored reports of Nazi atrocities and pursued business-as-usual with neighboring Germany, according to the reports that were issued as part of a five-year examination of Switzerland's actions in World War II.
The ICE singled out the Basel chemical companies Ciba and Sandoz (now merged into Novartis), which implemented the Nazis' Aryanisation policies in a bid to win lucrative supply contracts from the Third Reich.
It found that Ciba's Berlin branch in 1933 fired its Jewish board of directors and supervisory board members and replaced them with "Aryan" Germans. At the same time, the report said, Sandoz replaced the Jewish chairman of its German subsidiary with an "Aryan" businessman.
This is in the past - new board of directors etc.
Companies trade with Britain and America despite the million deaths they caused in Iraq. Fake news weapons of mass destruction as an excuse. Both countries do everything they can to destroy the EUR currency and the EU on an ongoing basis. No country in the world has been responsible for innocent peoples' deaths than Britain since the tenth century.
Why does Ireland trade with Anglo-Saxonia at all? At least Swiss goods and services are of high quality, unlike British and American junk. And Switzerland is compliant. Meanwhile Trump Tweets messages to destroy the EU. And May travels down the same road.
Ireland needs a barbed wire border with NI - unless IRL and NI are prepared to join Schengen. I have no problem with NI remaining in GB politically, as long as they wish. Switzerland is in Schengen - but not the EU. People travelling between NI and GB can disclose their passport details on checkin for a flight to/from GB. One can fly from Zurich to Iceland (neither are EU countries) without showing a passport or ID card) because both are in Schengen. One can't fly from Zurich to Ireland without multiple ID card or passport inspections, queues and delays. And the Irish ID card (stupidly called a passport card) does not work in automated borders - neither does the book passport. Forcing one to line up for half an hour for manual inspection. Meanwhile every other Schengen citizen can fly through the system automatically. This is an OUTRAGEOUS situation to be in. And the Irish morons placidly couldn't give in to this bureaucratic mess!! thus keeping themselves in kept in third class. No Swiss person would put up with this - even though CH is not in the EU0 -
You agree with what??? You were asked a question about how long you have lived in Switzerland? Everything you post suggest that you are either the typical fresh of the boat expat or a member of the SVP (main right wing party for those not in the know).
To start with the Schengen Agreement has nothing to do with the Switzerlands obligations to the EU! Under the bilateral agreement we:
- Accept FMOP
- Accept rulings of the ECJ
- Accept all product standardisation rules
- We contribute to the structural funds
- We participate in research and education programs
- We are not allowed to use passporting for financial services
In reality we have all the trappings of an EU member state without a seat at the table!
And no everyone does not speak English, in fact if you spend sometime at all living in the country side you will discover that apart from school kids and some young people, very few people can speak English beyond say A2 level!
Historically and even today, one of the main reason that the shopping centre at Zurich airport is so well developed is because it is not subject the same commercial restrictions that exist else where relating to opening hours, staffing and compensation payments. People travel out to Zurich airport to do their shopping when shops are closed at 4:00pm on Saturday, when there is no late night shopping in their area, no 24 hour shops etc... beyond the limited offer the kiosk at their local train station. Hell, I live about an hour from the airport and even we and our neighbours shop there from time to time.
Switzerland has an active army of about 22K, which means that it is most defiantly not bigger that the EU, in fact most of the major economies have an active force of more than 5 times that figure. As for the militia, last time a I requested one of my guys be absented for training I was informed by his commanding officer that he was the only one in the platoon authorised and trained to drive the tank and if he was not there they could not participating in the main training exercise! One of my other colleagues recently returned early from training because although they had the software for measuring a fall out, they had neither manuals nor training so the exercises were cancelled. On top of this many communities for one reason or another have decided not to finance the local firing range for the militia nor even train or finance the civil defence unit. And of course we should not forget our air force that as we have discovered only fly office hours and we're dependent on France/German/Italy to come to our aid at all other times.
And then we have the UK style patter of the undemocratic EU....
- Yet every single change to the EU treaties had be accepted by the Irish people in Referenda
- Junker is where he is because in the last parliamentary elections parties representing a more integrated EU won the majority of the seats
- The commission is approved, held accountable and can be removed the democratically elected parliament
- Most members of the council are in fact elected members of their own states
- The ECJ appointed are agreed by the council
- The court of auditors are political appointees
And so on, in fact while all Irish referenda results are binding on the government, where as only some Swiss referenda are in fact binding on the government, the recent FMOP being one example.
As for corruption, in Switzerland at present there are investigations going on in the awarding of public contracts in at least 3 cantons, there is the investigation into the awarding of federal IT contracts, the investigation into Blatter's time as a senior army procurement officer... and those are only the ones I happen to remember of the top of my head.
In short every country has it's positives and negatives points, Switzerland is no different. You need to take off the rose coloured glasses and see Switzerland for what it is, a great country, but with faults and failings just like every other one.
The question I asked is why is it so rich? You are bitching, presumably as a resident, who wasn't born in the country. All us people who travel around the planet 'bitch' about local issues. Nowhere is perfect. I did not say I lived in Switzerland. I live far further south - I hate the cold. Switzerland's weather is pleasant in the summertime. I have visited the country regularly since I was age 18. So I suspect that I have a more globally objective view of the place having moved around the world. You can't fault Swiss public transport or other infrastructure. Or the quality of hospital care. Or telecommunications or other services which are often government delivered. Or its multi-lingual open-ness - fine you might be able to find someone in a mountain village who only speaks the local 'Swiss German' which is not German at all. Call it a big Gaeltacht in Germanic terms. (Accepting that Irish and English are totally different language groups unlike Zuri lingo and high German).
As far as shopping is concerned I don't like Swiss opening hours laws and if I was to live in the Zurich region it would be close to an Sbahn line that ran to the airport - not just for shopping but for travel in general. Migros at Zurich airport is a pleasure to shop in. When you get to the self checkout you are not bothered with weight validation issues for your shopping as in France, Ireland and Tesco. No need to wait for supervisors. No stupid error messages. And no booze age checks! (for a different reason).
Political corruption in CH is probably at 1%. The further south and west and north and east one goes, the higher the %age of corruption. Name me a less corrupt state aside from Switzerland and Monaco.0 -
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I'm also a Swiss resident and while I love this country and currently want to live nowhere else but it's far from perfect. Most of the info that jim2007 gives is accurate. While parts of the country are quite modern, other aspects are stuck far in the past.
Why is the country so rich? I don't know but I'm sure it has something to do with the long work weeks that many people work. In general the Swiss work long weeks of between 40 and 50 working hours (i.e add breaks on top of that). I think the average is about 42. This has been the case for a long time now.0 -
If Switzerland was epitomised by one person it would be Roger Federer. Ruthlessly efficient, well prepared, universally liked and respected, mega wealthy, controversy free, if a little too nice and boring. But at the end of the day, when all pros and cons taken into account, much better than the competition.0
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Forcing one to line up for half an hour for manual inspection. Meanwhile every other Schengen citizen can fly through the system automatically. This is an OUTRAGEOUS situation to be in. And the Irish morons placidly couldn't give in to this bureaucratic mess!! thus keeping themselves in kept in third class. No Swiss person would put up with this - even though CH is not in the EU
Sounds like you haven't travelled much through Europe in recent times. :rolleyes: The last three times I crossed the Swiss border (in a French-registered vehicle), the border guards/customs were pulling just about all the Swiss cars to the side to check them out. The last time I crossed from Germany to France, there was a 45-minute queue while the French carried out a visual inspection of vehicles entering France. Similarly when I drove from Belgium into France a few weeks ago, where it made me sad to see signs of life again in the old abandonned border points. And the last time I boarded a 'plane (in Switzerland, as it happens) my passport was checked three times before I took my seat ...
I think all this ID checking is a waste of time, as I've travelled enough to know how to get around the controls, and I've no doubt that anyone who felt they "needed" to hide their passage would know all the same tricks. But what on earth has this got to do with Switzerland's riches?0 -
No I'm bitching, I'm a Swiss German speaking dual citizen who has lived most of my adult life in Switzerland, just short of thirty years, or on secondment for one or other of the Swiss multinationals abroad. And as such all I'm doing is pointing out to someone who visits occasionally using rose coloured glasses that he is not seen us for what we are.You are bitching, presumably as a resident, who wasn't born in the country. All us people who travel around the planet 'bitch' about local issues. Nowhere is perfect. I did not say I lived in Switzerland. I live far further south - I hate the cold. Switzerland's weather is pleasant in the summertime. I have visited the country regularly since I was age 18.0 -
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Why is the country so rich? I don't know but I'm sure it has something to do with the long work weeks that many people work. In general the Swiss work long weeks of between 40 and 50 working hours (i.e add breaks on top of that). I think the average is about 42. This has been the case for a long time now.
It is true that we work a longer week, but on the other hand we don't work overtime as a rule. On the other hand US colleagues also complain about the pace - no long coffee breaks nor chats at the water cooler. People are there to work not socialise - most people know very little about their colleagues private life and in some cases do not even call each other by first names.0 -
For heven sakes! All self-checks have at least one or more often two or three people assigned to monitor the system, because of course we have errors, malfunctions, weight problems and suspected minors buying alcohol need to be controlled.No need to wait for supervisors. No stupid error messages. And no booze age checks! (for a different reason).0 -
And we have now reopened trade talks with the EU after accepting that FMOP must remain!
EU and Switzerland to reopen trade and political talks
Like I said more or less an EU member without a seat at the decision table.0 -
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It was not a binding referendum in the sense of an Irish one. The government and the parliament gave it a broad interpretation because it was clear that it was not the intention of the people to break the bilateral agreement. That left the right wingers with the option of going for a second referenda but they total failed to get the numbers - 13K out of a required 50K. In addition there was an unitive for a reversal referendum to be held later this year that had raised 110K of the required 50K.
In reality this was an attempt by the Right Wing (SVP) to achieve their objective of breaking the bilateral agreement by the back door, via a popular cause and they have failed. In addition the intention now is to change the constitution to prevent such attempts in the future, so they will have to go after the bilateral itself, which is a non starter.
The big danger for the UK though is that the Swiss will do a deal on passporting, bank secrecy no longer bars the way and they are willing to accept ECB oversight just as the accept ECJ rulings on trade.0 -
It was not a binding referendum in the sense of an Irish one. Â The government and the parliament gave it a broad interpretation because it was clear that it was not the intention of the people to break the bilateral agreement. Â
I gather the referendum specified a quota system. Is that not true? If it did specify a quota system why was it not the intention of the voters to have one?0 -
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realitykeeper wrote: »What is wrong with being socialist? Everything! It doesn`t work. I would rather go to the workhouse than a soviet era gulag.
I think you're confusing yourself between socialism and communism.0
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