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Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

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Comments

  • #4322
    dastardly00
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,561 ✭✭✭✭dastardly00


    Anyone know the story with Robert Lennon? He was an unused sub for the first two matches against Waterford & Clare, but hasn't been on the bench since then.


  • #4323
    Village87
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,603 ✭✭✭Village87


    Lennon, Joyce, Holden all to slow. Cleere looked very average yesterday, poor under high ball, sloppy at times, not very commanding.

    Kilkennys biggest game in a long time is the showdown v Dublin u21. Cody seems to relying on this u21 to build his next team around, lose against Dublin and Kilkenny will go 5 years without doing anything u21. Not the platform to build your team around.


  • #4324
    Topcat32
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 552 ✭✭✭Topcat32


    Village87 wrote: »
    Lennon, Joyce, Holden all to slow. Cleere looked very average yesterday, poor under high ball, sloppy at times, not very commanding.

    Kilkennys biggest game in a long time is the showdown v Dublin u21. Cody seems to relying on this u21 to build his next team around, lose against Dublin and Kilkenny will go 5 years without doing anything u21. Not the platform to build your team around.

    What other choice does have other than to rebuild the team with young players? Whatever happens in that game we need to rebuild with the under 21s, he is not a magician.


  • #4325
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Jesus lads, If yiz are all finished with Cody can we have him?


  • #4326
    davidx40
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 214 ✭✭davidx40


    Topcat32 wrote: »
    Village87 wrote: »
    Lennon, Joyce, Holden all to slow. Cleere looked very average yesterday, poor under high ball, sloppy at times, not very commanding.

    Kilkennys biggest game in a long time is the showdown v Dublin u21. Cody seems to relying on this u21 to build his next team around, lose against Dublin and Kilkenny will go 5 years without doing anything u21. Not the platform to build your team around.

    What other choice does have other than to rebuild the team with young players? Whatever happens in that game we need to rebuild with the under 21s, he is not a magician.
    Agree totally hes not magician ....this fall of has being coming with 5/6 years weve had very poor u21 teams in that perìod.....you didnt have to be a genius to see what was coming.....we have so many lads on senior team at minute who are so limited in striking and basic skills its a real worry for nxt few years


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  • #4327
    Village87
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,603 ✭✭✭Village87


    Selectors and Cody need to have a good look at club players when the games start back on. Its a joke the panel at the moment, not one sub to make a difference on the bench yesterday and last years all ireland, Michael Walsh and Michael Malone for example, i am about 3 stone over weight and can play masters and i have as much chance of coming on yesterday and these lads


  • #4328
    JJs Left Hand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,369 ✭✭✭JJs Left Hand


    Club hurling in the county has been a woeful standard for years now


  • #4329
    unrealtime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 364 ✭✭unrealtime


    Could have added to irrationalities noted above by also referring to fact that players like John Joe and Lester have been picked for years now. Do we hope to get a different result by repeating the same thing over and over again. Without all his retired stars Cody has lost the plot.

    I don't agree though with those who would advocate that we withdraw from hurling championship like we have with football.


  • #4330
    davidx40
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 214 ✭✭davidx40


    JJs Left Hand wrote: »
    Club hurling in the county has been a woeful standard for years now
    Says a lot when Gorta was nearly standout player in last years club championship and carrying an injury through whole lot.......look at yesterdays subs how many of them would be near panel in other counties??


  • #4331
    Topcat32
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 552 ✭✭✭Topcat32


    unrealtime wrote: »
    Could have added to irrationalities noted above by also referring to fact that players like John Joe and Lester have been picked for years now. Do we hope to get a different result by repeating the same thing over and over again. Without all his retired stars Cody has lost the plot.

    I don't agree though with those who would advocate that we withdraw from hurling championship like we have with football.

    Thinking a manager who has won at least one national or provincial title each year during this decade should go on the basis of a poor league seems a bit irrational to me. Its a league, he has to try things, we are just not in a position at the moment we we can experiment and win things, the older players dont look overly bothered by the league, the young players are finding their way and there is a number of players who arent up to the standard of top level intercounty hurling.


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  • #4332
    unrealtime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 364 ✭✭unrealtime


    Withdrawing the team is far more irrational. All the points I made were fully rational. The past is not now, we are on a slide. I don't see Cody reversing it by the way he managed the league.


  • #4333
    Topcat32
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 552 ✭✭✭Topcat32


    unrealtime wrote: »
    Withdrawing the team is far more irrational. All the points I made were fully rational. The past is not now, we are on a slide. I don't see Cody reversing it by the way he managed the league.
    My comment on withdrawing the team was just a bit tongue in cheek by the way, as indicated by the reference to cricket. What county would seriously consider getting rid of a manger who has taken them to the last 3 all Irelands, winning 2 of them, it might be the past but it is the very recent past.


  • #4334
    v3ttel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,320 ✭✭✭v3ttel


    unrealtime wrote: »
    Time for Cody to go. He is making irrational decisions even if he desires to show up how inadequate some players are so he can boot them off the panel. But playing many out of position and holding on to those like. K Joyce and Joey while refusing to play them is simply insane.

    We have no place to go now and Cody is not going to redeem himself.

    Stop. Just stop. He has only failed to qualify for 3 All-Ireland finals since 1999.

    Let's even pretend he started in 2014. He's won 2 of the last 3 All-Ireland's and lost the other in a final. They'd be building statues of a manager that did that in other counties, yet here you are dismissing him after a relatively poor league campaign.

    We can all be critical at times about how he can be slow to make changes, but seriously, I'm embarrassed anyone suggested he should go in the first week of April. It's cringeworthy stuff.

    You've zero clue how lucky we have been to have such sustained success. Every team is going to have a dip, it's just remarkable it's taken 18 years for it to happen, even then, I still believe we will be involved at the business end of the championship if we have everyone fit and free of injury.


  • #4335
    usualstripes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 557 ✭✭✭usualstripes


    Topcat32 wrote: »
    My comment on withdrawing the team was just a bit tongue in cheek by the way, as indicated by the reference to cricket. What county would seriously consider getting rid of a manger who has taken them to the last 3 all Irelands, winning 2 of them, it might be the past but it is the very recent past.

    Some lads need to get a grip here.
    Considering all the players we lost we still have the structure to be very competitive.
    The following have not turned into poor players


    Eoin Murphy
    Paul Murphy
    Padraig walsh
    Kieran joyce
    Conor Fogarty
    James cleere
    Paddy deegan
    Lester ryan
    Ollie walsh
    Cillian Buckley
    Walter Walsh
    TJ
    Richie leahy
    Colin fennelly
    Mick fennelly
    Richie hogan
    Liam blanchfield
    Conor martin
    Ger aylward
    Conor delaney
    Evan cody
    Joey holden
    James maher
    Pat lyng
    Mark bergin
    Sean morrissey
    Joe lyng

    Plus add in a few on the extended panel for next year

    John walsh
    Luke scanlon
    Tommy walsh

    Of course we have to improve and have to change the way we play depending on the opposition but we will and lest we forget will now have lads with an edge on attitude and wanting to step up big time.
    We could have changed it around yesterday and tried different things bur for whatever reason we didn't.
    What will all the doubters here sat on the 2nd week of June if we go to Wexford Park and come away with a 5 point win?
    Will they say fair play or we should win by more because all of our panellists will have the mindset of beating wexford in their heads in wexford park. It wasn good yesterday but row in behind the lads this year when they really need it.


  • #4336
    davidx40
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 214 ✭✭davidx40


    usualstripes wrote: »
    Topcat32 wrote: »
    My comment on withdrawing the team was just a bit tongue in cheek by the way, as indicated by the reference to cricket. What county would seriously consider getting rid of a manger who has taken them to the last 3 all Irelands, winning 2 of them, it might be the past but it is the very recent past.

    Some lads need to get a grip here.
    Considering all the players we lost we still have the structure to be very competitive.
    The following have not turned into poor players


    Eoin Murphy
    Paul Murphy
    Padraig walsh
    Kieran joyce
    Conor Fogarty
    James cleere
    Paddy deegan
    Lester ryan
    Ollie walsh
    Cillian Buckley
    Walter Walsh
    TJ
    Richie leahy
    Colin fennelly
    Mick fennelly
    Richie hogan
    Liam blanchfield
    Conor martin
    Ger aylward
    Conor delaney
    Evan cody
    Joey holden
    James maher
    Pat lyng
    Mark bergin
    Sean morrissey
    Joe lyng

    Plus add in a few on the extended panel for next year

    John walsh
    Luke scanlon
    Tommy walsh

    Of course we have to improve and have to change the way we play depending on the opposition but we will and lest we forget will now have lads with an edge on attitude and wanting to step up big time.
    We could have changed it around yesterday and tried different things bur for whatever reason we didn't.
    What will all the doubters here sat on the 2nd week of June if we go to Wexford Park and come away with a 5 point win?
    Will they say fair play or we should win by more because all of our panellists will have the mindset of beating wexford in their heads in wexford park. It wasn good yesterday but row in behind the lads this year when they really need it.
    Thats problem most of those players have been beaten by wexford in u21 last few years or so .......over 6 months on from all ireland we still have no fullback centre back


  • #4337
    davidx40
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 214 ✭✭davidx40


    usualstripes wrote: »
    Topcat32 wrote: »
    My comment on withdrawing the team was just a bit tongue in cheek by the way, as indicated by the reference to cricket. What county would seriously consider getting rid of a manger who has taken them to the last 3 all Irelands, winning 2 of them, it might be the past but it is the very recent past.

    Some lads need to get a grip here.
    Considering all the players we lost we still have the structure to be very competitive.
    The following have not turned into poor players


    Eoin Murphy
    Paul Murphy
    Padraig walsh
    Kieran joyce
    Conor Fogarty
    James cleere
    Paddy deegan
    Lester ryan
    Ollie walsh
    Cillian Buckley
    Walter Walsh
    TJ
    Richie leahy
    Colin fennelly
    Mick fennelly
    Richie hogan
    Liam blanchfield
    Conor martin
    Ger aylward
    Conor delaney
    Evan cody
    Joey holden
    James maher
    Pat lyng
    Mark bergin
    Sean morrissey
    Joe lyng

    Plus add in a few on the extended panel for next year

    John walsh
    Luke scanlon
    Tommy walsh

    Of course we have to improve and have to change the way we play depending on the opposition but we will and lest we forget will now have lads with an edge on attitude and wanting to step up big time.
    We could have changed it around yesterday and tried different things bur for whatever reason we didn't.
    What will all the doubters here sat on the 2nd week of June if we go to Wexford Park and come away with a 5 point win?
    Will they say fair play or we should win by more because all of our panellists will have the mindset of beating wexford in their heads in wexford park. It wasn good yesterday but row in behind the lads this year when they really need it.
    Thats problem most of those players have been beaten by wexford in u21 last few years or so .......over 6 months on from all ireland we still have no fullback centre back


  • #4338
    brookville
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,747 ✭✭✭brookville


    First of all I'd like to congratulate wexford deserving winners it was like they won an all ireland it's great for them but this time last year clare hammered us and were flying but when the summer came around they were tired so I wouldn't be panicking yet
    Waterford didn't bother with the league this year either it's the summer months you want to be peaking not march we'll be thereabouts in the summer when we get everyone back


  • #4339
    unrealtime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 364 ✭✭unrealtime


    More heads in the clouds


  • #4340
    Cornerback1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 931 ✭✭✭Cornerback1


    dastardly00 wrote: »
    Final basic stats from the league campaign...

    413646.PNG

    On average 11.5 points from open play per game. Not a great average!


  • #4341
    citykat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,704 ✭✭✭citykat


    v3ttel wrote: »
    Stop. Just stop. He has only failed to qualify for 3 All-Ireland finals since 1999.

    Let's even pretend he started in 2014. He's won 2 of the last 3 All-Ireland's and lost the other in a final. They'd be building statues of a manager that did that in other counties, yet here you are dismissing him after a relatively poor league campaign.

    We can all be critical at times about how he can be slow to make changes, but seriously, I'm embarrassed anyone suggested he should go in the first week of April. It's cringeworthy stuff.

    You've zero clue how lucky we have been to have such sustained success. Every team is going to have a dip, it's just remarkable it's taken 18 years for it to happen, even then, I still believe we will be involved at the business end of the championship if we have everyone fit and free of injury.

    I'm surprised anybody is actually taking any of this scutter seriously!


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  • #4342
    unrealtime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 364 ✭✭unrealtime


    Scutter is not an appropriate word for rational argument.


  • #4343
    dastardly00
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,561 ✭✭✭✭dastardly00


    brookville wrote: »
    First of all I'd like to congratulate wexford deserving winners it was like they won an all ireland it's great for them but this time last year clare hammered us and were flying but when the summer came around they were tired so I wouldn't be panicking yet
    Waterford didn't bother with the league this year either it's the summer months you want to be peaking not march we'll be thereabouts in the summer when we get everyone back

    Some people (not just picking on you brookville) seem to be clinging on to the hope that things will change radically during the summer when 'everyone is back'...

    Who are we missing?

    Ger Aylward had his cruciate ligament injury back in January 2016. That's a long time ago and he hasn't played for KK since. There's no guarantee that: (a) he'll be as good as he was in the near future; (b) he'll make it back on to the team; and (c) he'll be banging in goals.
    Then there is Mick Fennelly. He's a colossus for sure (my favourite player), but at this stage he's basically held together with duct tape. We can't rely on Mick to save the day.


  • #4344
    Django99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Django99


    People are on either end of the extremes here.

    Of course, Cody should not step down and it's bizarre to suggest it. We have had bad leagues before and come back to win the All Ireland, so have a lot of teams. Equally, doing well in the league doesn't guarantee a good championship.

    However, I would be surprised if Kilkenny won an All Ireland this year. In any given game with any given opposition, I would give us a good chance. But to go on a run and win 4 games in a row, I don't see it happening.

    The team is too reliant on TJ and Richie. If any team stops the two of them from performing, or if they have an off day, then it's hard to see us beating any of the top teams. The other forwards simply aren't as good as other teams right now. They are young enough though, and may come good over the next few years, but I can't see it happening this year.

    Padraig Walsh is not a great solution to the full back problem. He is missed out the field. And I'm not sure I'd have 100% confidence in him as a full back against the likes of Callanan, the Galway forwards or even a good young player like Conor McDonald. It's a very difficult and specialised position. Perhaps though he is the best option we currently have.

    Similarly with Cleere, he probably won't be great this year. I would have much more confidence in him if he had 2 experienced, established half backs beside him. But he probably won't.

    Some players are wildly inconsistent, Buckley the first that comes to mind. No one is sure where to play him, and he goes in and out of games. Often times his man does a lot of damage too. But when on form, he is terrific. I don't where I'd play him myself though. Probably midfield.

    Some players lack some fairly basic skills. Deegan, Wally, Colin, all have awkward striking, and sometimes very very weak off their bad sides. Inter county plays shouldn't really have a bad side.

    The team is definitely in transition, and Cody clearly wants to be part of the transition. I think he sees a good future for a lot of the players, but I myself think it will get worse before it gets better.

    If we lose to Wexford it's a long road back to the All Ireland semi finals. A tough draw could make for a very hard run.


  • #4345
    FrankCummins
    Closed Accounts Posts: 52 ✭✭FrankCummins


    Conor Fogarty was a shocking loss yeaterday , Wexford got a rub of the green with a few descissions that went there way Wexford fouled a lot yesterday got away with it they went down handy enough some of there players Hanlon theatrics were hilarious towards the end. This thing of our full back line half back line holding tight does not seem to happen anymore. There is a lot of work to be done as somebody else said they need us.


  • #4346
    Topcat32
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 552 ✭✭✭Topcat32


    dastardly00 wrote: »
    Some people (not just picking on you brookville) seem to be clinging on to the hope that things will change radically during the summer when 'everyone is back'...

    Who are we missing?

    Ger Aylward had his cruciate ligament injury back in January 2016. That's a long time ago and he hasn't played for KK since. There's no guarantee that: (a) he'll be as good as he was in the near future; (b) he'll make it back on to the team; and (c) he'll be banging in goals.
    Then there is Mick Fennelly. He's a colossus for sure (my favourite player), but at this stage he's basically held together with duct tape. We can't rely on Mick to save the day.

    Some people also seem to be going down the we are doomed to failure route based on a league which has been up and down for all teams apart from Wexford, the truth as always will probably be somewhere in between with Kilkenny improving a lot in the summer but not enough to win the All Ireland.


  • #4347
    dastardly00
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,561 ✭✭✭✭dastardly00


    Cornerback1 wrote: »
    On average 11.5 points from open play per game. Not a great average!

    If you compare this campaign to the 2014-2016 Leagues, points scoring (as in, balls struck over-the-bar/white flag waved) either from open play or from placed balls isn't too much of an issue I think.

    Year | Games | Ave. Points (from Play) per Game | Ave. Points (from Placed Balls) per Game | Ave. Total Points per Game
    2014 | 8 | 12.9 | 6.1 | 19.0
    2015 | 6 | 9.3 | 6.3 | 15.6
    2016 | 7 | 11.3 | 7.6 | 18.9
    2017 | 6 | 10 | 7.3 | 17.3

    I posted over on the main discussion thread for the 2017 National Hurling League about how few goals we've scored this year compared to other years. That is the biggest problem.
    dastardly00 wrote: »
    5 goals in the 2017 League (3 from play and 2 penalties). Looking back at the 3 previous League campaigns, it's clear to see that we are seriously struggling to score goals (average of less than one goal per game).

    Year | Games | Goals (from Play) | Goals (from Placed Balls) | Ave. Goals per Game
    2014 | 8 | 17 | 4 | 2.63
    2015 | 6 | 7 | 1 | 1.33
    2016 | 7 | 11 | 1 | 1.71
    2017 | 6 | 3 | 2 | 0.833

    And looking strictly at the players who are scoring goals, the difference is Colin Fennelly.
    In 2014 he scored 4 goals in 7 matches.
    In 2015 he was a part of the Ballyhale team that contested the AI Club Final and he only played the relegation play-off match against Clare.
    In 2016 he scored 3 goals in 5 matches.
    In 2017 he failed to score in 4 matches.


  • #4348
    dastardly00
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,561 ✭✭✭✭dastardly00


    Topcat32 wrote: »
    Some people also seem to be going down the we are doomed to failure route based on a league which has been up and down for all teams apart from Wexford, the truth as always will probably be somewhere in between with Kilkenny improving a lot in the summer but not enough to win the All Ireland.

    Nah that's just unrealtime :D


  • #4349
    Hitchens
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,097 ✭✭✭Hitchens


    League titles just don't matter to Kilkenny, or Kerry in Gaelic. Under 21's? Limerick won 3 in a row. Think Clare might have too, but where did it translate into Senior All-Irelands for them?


  • #4350
    unrealtime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 364 ✭✭unrealtime


    As I read it for example both Django and Davidx don't appear too sanguine about our prospects


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  • #4351
    Django99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Django99


    Hitchens wrote: »
    League titles just don't matter to Kilkenny, or Kerry in Gaelic. Under 21's? Limerick won 3 in a row. Think Clare might have too, but where did it translate into Senior All-Irelands for them?

    Kilkenny Tipp and Cork lead the roll of honour in league titles and championship titles. In Football, Kerry, Dublin and Mayo lead. Who are the top teams in hurling and football, both currently and historically?

    Sometimes league form doesn't translate to championship, but that is the exception rather than the norm. Every single team would prefer to do well in the league than not do well. That's a fact.

    Same with underage success. Doesn't always transform to senior success. But that is the exception. Most dominant teams can trace back 10-15 years earlier and they had good under age teams.

    Some people seem to think you are better off losing in the league. That's absolutely crazy.


This discussion has been closed.
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