Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

Reati · 03-04-2017 01:37PM

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

There is a description of what they did recover form Jurgen Whyte over on the P forum.

Not sure why I'd need to go to another forum to view it. It's hardly top secret when he spoke to the media about it.

Addressing the media after last night’s operation, Jurgen Whyte from the Air Accident Investigation Unit said lifting the wreckage was a difficult and hazardous operation, which required special skills.

“What we did actually retrieve is the rotor head, the main gearbox, one engine, and associated wreckage around that.

Source:
http://www.carlow-nationalist.ie/2017/04/03/coast-guard-helicopter-wreckage-recovered-as-search-for-missing-crew-members-continues/

kippy · 03-04-2017 01:38PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes likely to both just be sheltering from wind and waves.

I'd doubt it based on current conditions.
Perhaps the Granuaile is sheltering from the media.....

The Ocean Challanger is definitely in a search pattern.

elastico · 03-04-2017 01:39PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes likely to both just be sheltering from wind and waves.

I suppose Ocean Challenger will depart south once weather clears, its job done?

elastico · 03-04-2017 01:42PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Cheers, very easy to use Alexandra Basin as it's a somewhat "secure" location and it's protected from prying eyes by the P&O pier south of it and all the trailers.

Belfast another option if they don't want the media to get photos of something wrapped in green tarp getting lifted onto a crane.

Gadgetman496 · 03-04-2017 01:44PM

Reati wrote: »

Not sure why I'd need to go to another forum to view it.

Nobody suggested you needed to, I simply posted it was available there

If you prefer the Carlow-Nationalist then good for you.

jimmycrackcorm · 03-04-2017 01:44PM

Deleted User wrote:

Not necessarily the way it'll work. They could quite easily just bring it around to Dublin port and go in to Alexandra basin and unload there at night and then drive it up to GOR. They'd be up in GOR in less than an hour through the port tunnel. I don't know where this whole "secret" location came from, was the word secret actually used or not disclosed location. Like you say it'll be to avoid a media scrum, not that they'll likely see more than a giant tarp or a container.

Wouldn't that be easier than trying to transport over land?

elastico · 03-04-2017 01:50PM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Wouldn't that be easier than trying to transport over land?

I'd expect it to fit easy on a regular trailer. It will need to go overland to gormanstown anyway.

Doesn't look like the investigators are that interested in it either, seems to be no urgency getting it unloaded.

Reati · 03-04-2017 01:50PM

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

Nobody suggested you needed to, I simply posted it was available there

If you prefer the Carlow-Nationalist then good for you.

:rolleyes:

TomOnBoard · 03-04-2017 02:05PM

elastico wrote: »

True, I've seen it and its not actually that big. I suppose best thing is cruise along the coast, detour into port of choice at last minute, have everything ready and be unloaded before a posse turns up.

Just unload what they have at the nearest point of access and go on to the next step. All this 'undisclosed location' stuff is totally unnecessary.

Ridiculous ould codology.

03-04-2017 02:21PM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Just unload what they have at the nearest point of access and go on to the next step. All this 'undisclosed location' stuff is totally unnecessary.

Ridiculous ould codology.

I'd tend to agree

HeidiHeidi · 03-04-2017 02:24PM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Just unload what they have at the nearest point of access and go on to the next step. All this 'undisclosed location' stuff is totally unnecessary.

Ridiculous ould codology.

All that was said (or at least all that I heard) was Pat McGrath explaining what would happen next now that the wreck was on board the Granuaile - it would be taken to an undisclosed location and offloaded.

I don't think RTE were trying to create any conspiracy theories! It seems to have grown legs just from being repeated here (and incorrectly repeated as "secret" location). Chinese whispers.

Water John · 03-04-2017 02:25PM

Meanwhile, rescue missions continue every day. Great people.
Nobody exercised as to whether the injury was 'serious enough' to put a heli in the air. Professional calls, rescue responds.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/injured-fisherman-airlifted-from-trawler-off-coast-of-cork-784158.html

Tabnabs · 03-04-2017 02:38PM

Scottish CG helicopter used in hoax search in NI over the weekend. Often the job of Rescue 116 to assist in these waters too.

https://www.facebook.com/BangorRNLI/?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE&fref=nf

TomOnBoard · 03-04-2017 02:39PM

Water John wrote: »

Meanwhile, rescue missions continue every day. Great people.
Nobody exercised as to whether the injury was 'serious enough' to put a heli in the air. Professional calls, rescue responds.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/injured-fisherman-airlifted-from-trawler-off-coast-of-cork-784158.html

I think that, in due course, the protocols in place for calling out Coastguard assistance will need to be reviewed and any lessons that might be learned from the R116 tragedy taken on board. I'm not saying in any way that the R116/R118 callout was not justified- how would I know-.

However, I am saying that it would be wrong for existing protocols to remain without going through a review process so that any learning can be applied.

elastico · 03-04-2017 02:43PM

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

All that was said (or at least all that I heard) was Pat McGrath explaining what would happen next now that the wreck was on board the Granuaile - it would be taken to an undisclosed location and offloaded.

I don't think RTE were trying to create any conspiracy theories! It seems to have grown legs just from being repeated here (and incorrectly repeated as "secret" location). Chinese whispers.

First person to suggest a conspiracy theory is you!

Those legs have just grown another couple of sizes😜

BoatMad · 03-04-2017 02:43PM

what are the chances of locating the remaining two crew members ?

elastico · 03-04-2017 02:48PM

BoatMad wrote: »

what are the chances of locating the remaining two crew members ?

When you look at the search for the Malaysia airlines plane the search area becomes vast rather quickly with ocean currents.

TomOnBoard · 03-04-2017 02:50PM

kona wrote: »

I'd say that's a gremlin on the apps side. Theye fdr will have all the correct information.

No doubt the FDR will have exact and reliable flight data, and that is well known to the investigators by now..

The 90 vs 9 or something else is only of relevance in places like this, where each figure has been used as a definitive basis for one theory or another, when in fact both theories have been based on jumping to conclusions. Such theories may well turn out to be correct when the fact are fully known. However at the time they are presented here, they are basically built on pure speculation dressed up as fact- based conclusions.

TomOnBoard · 03-04-2017 02:51PM

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

All that was said (or at least all that I heard) was Pat McGrath explaining what would happen next now that the wreck was on board the Granuaile - it would be taken to an undisclosed location and offloaded.

I don't think RTE were trying to create any conspiracy theories! It seems to have grown legs just from being repeated here (and incorrectly repeated as "secret" location). Chinese whispers.

Here we go!! Blame the poor ould Chinese again!! :rolleyes:

TomOnBoard · 03-04-2017 02:59PM

elastico wrote: »

When you look at the search for the Malaysia airlines plane the search area becomes vast rather quickly with ocean currents.

No doubt the possible locations have increased dramatically by now.

However, unlike the Malaysian crash, and other 'lost at sea' situations, these men were wearing immersion suits which would have inbuilt buoyancy which may improve recoverability so long as that buoyancy remains intact.

I'm sure that oceanography and meteorology experts will have been tasked by now to use their extensive wind and current computer models to target possible locations where they may wash up in due course.

03-04-2017 03:06PM

Tabnabs wrote: »

Scottish CG helicopter used in hoax search in NI over the weekend. Often the job of Rescue 116 to assist in these waters too.

https://www.facebook.com/BangorRNLI/?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE&fref=nf

Bit of both, most photos of helis on their facebook page seem to be of HM Coastguard 92's only one of MES 61. I don't remember 116 deploying that far north recently. They've been over to IOM twice in the last 3-4 months for familiarisation.

kippy · 03-04-2017 03:13PM

elastico wrote: »

When you look at the search for the Malaysia airlines plane the search area becomes vast rather quickly with ocean currents.

Sorry, but this just has to be responded to.
There are very few parallels between both incidents. That much should be very obvious and not even need to be stated.

As for the chances of finding the other two crewmen - that depends entirely on:
The resources thrown at it.
The weather.
Luck.

I would hope that there is a chance within the next two/three weeks but the longer that time period goes out the less likely a successful recovery.

elastico · 03-04-2017 03:20PM

kippy wrote: »

Sorry, but this just has to be responded to.
There are very few parallels between both incidents. That much should be very obvious and not even need to be stated.

As for the chances of finding the other two crewmen - that depends entirely on:
The resources thrown at it.
The weather.
Luck.

I would hope that there is a chance within the next two/three weeks but the longer that time period goes out the less likely a successful recovery.

The only comparison I am making is that ocean currents make search areas vast rather quick. They were searching off Donegal last week afaik. At this stage the search zone could be well north of Scotland.

I agree with you that luck will play a part, hopefully wash up on a beach somewhere.

Tabnabs · 03-04-2017 04:11PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Bit of both, most photos of helis on their facebook page seem to be of HM Coastguard 92's only one of MES 61. I don't remember 116 deploying that far north recently. They've been over to IOM twice in the last 3-4 months for familiarisation.

Not trying to prove a point, but she was regularly north of the border.

The aircraft, which regularly takes part in training exercises involving the RNLI, Newcastle and Kilkeel Coastguard teams and mountain rescue unit

http://www.thedownrecorder.co.uk/pages/index.asp?title=Rescue_116_carried_out_dozens_of_rescues_in_Mournes

Joining the five RNLI lifeboats in the major search were the Irish Coast Guard Helicopter Rescue 116 along with a rescue helicopter from Prestwick and local coastguard teams.

http://www.irishlifeboats.com/apps/blog../show/44026407-five-rnli-lifeboats-involved-in-search-for-missing-microlight-aircraft

the major multiagency search was coordinated by the coastguard and included Bangor RNLI, the Irish Coast Guard helicopter Rescue 116, four shipping vessels, two boats from Whitehead Yacht club and Larne, Portmuck and Bangor coastguard teams.

http://www.irishlifeboats.com/apps/blog../show/44024863-larne-rnli-rescue-three-missing-divers-north-of-the-gobbins

etc. etc.

TomOnBoard · 03-04-2017 04:26PM

kippy wrote: »

Sorry, but this just has to be responded to.
There are very few parallels between both incidents. That much should be very obvious and not even need to be stated.

As for the chances of finding the other two crewmen - that depends entirely on:
The resources thrown at it.
The weather.
Luck.

I would hope that there is a chance within the next two/three weeks but the longer that time period goes out the less likely a successful recovery.

I don't believe successful recovery has much to do with the level of resources any longer, as the missing crewman have now been taken by the sea and their retrieval depends entirely on them being washed up somewhere. Once washed up, they will be spotted by any number of possible shoreline users, rather than by dedicated search personnel. The length of possible shoreline is so vast that no amount of resources being thrown at a search could yield any more results than would be possible as a result of shoreline user keeping an eye out. I'm trying to nail this one because otherwise, the issue of 'not spending enough on the effort' will take root.

Furthermore, there comes a time in any search, when initial frenetic efforts need to be stood down and a different pace of effort comes into play, as the search area simply become too large. In this regard, a point will come when the other SAR helicopters will have to coddled as recent Air Worthiness bulletins in respect of the Sikorsky S-92 tail rotor assembly appears to require a 16- man hour maintenance effort to conduct borescope examination after every 10 (or was it 6) hours of flight.

So of your three dependencies, I believe that any recovery is now almost entirely down to luck.

Tenger · 03-04-2017 04:34PM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

No doubt the FDR will have exact and reliable flight data, and that is well known to the investigators by now..

The 90 vs 9 or something else is only of relevance in places like this, where each figure has been used as a definitive basis for one theory or another, when in fact both theories have been based on jumping to conclusions. Such theories may well turn out to be correct when the fact are fully known. However at the time they are presented here, they are basically built on pure speculation dressed up as fact- based conclusions.

This post sums up the problem of this thread and others elsewhere. Discussion and speculation is happening based upon incomplete data and several "what if....?" and "I heard this...."

The current review of the GermanWings crash should be a wake-up call to the potential dangers of making assumptions too early in an investigation.

In my almost 2 decades of working in the commercial aviation sector the patience required to await full reports is tedious but mostly worth it to get fully researched reports at the end. The push to get an answer as quickly as possible is mostly from non-aviation people. (once inherent airframe issues can be ruled out of course, which appear to cleared up by that last AAIU statement re "no mechanical anolmalies)

The recovery operation was focused on the missing crew as a priority. Once the combi FDR was retrieved in good shape the AAIU were mostly assured of getting the data they needed.Talking to CHC about operational procedures would add to that raw data.

I wonder does my time in the industry qualify me as "an aviation professional" for some of the elitist posters here?

03-04-2017 04:42PM

@Tabnabs sorry don't get me wrong she has often crossed the border and is on regular record having done so, quite a regular visitor to daisyhill in Newry I meant more that far north operationally.

Worthy of note is my words "that far north" from my previous post.

Storm 10 · 03-04-2017 04:47PM

Granuaile looks to be departing Blacksod and showing Galway as its destination ETA 2am tomorrow morning

kippy · 03-04-2017 05:10PM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

I don't believe successful recovery has much to do with the level of resources any longer, as the missing crewman have now been taken by the sea and their retrieval depends entirely on them being washed up somewhere. Once washed up, they will be spotted by any number of possible shoreline users, rather than by dedicated search personnel. The length of possible shoreline is so vast that no amount of resources being thrown at a search could yield any more results than would be possible as a result of shoreline user keeping an eye out. I'm trying to nail this one because otherwise, the issue of 'not spending enough on the effort' will take root.

Furthermore, there comes a time in any search, when initial frenetic efforts need to be stood down and a different pace of effort comes into play, as the search area simply become too large. In this regard, a point will come when the other SAR helicopters will have to coddled as recent Air Worthiness bulletins in respect of the Sikorsky S-92 tail rotor assembly appears to require a 16- man hour maintenance effort to conduct borescope examination after every 10 (or was it 6) hours of flight.

So of your three dependencies, I believe that any recovery is now almost entirely down to luck.

And resources.
A lot of the current coastline in the search area is very difficult to access - you won't find regular folks accessing it. Specialist resources are required but I take you points on the remainder of you post.

fiachr_a · 03-04-2017 05:30PM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

I think that, in due course, the protocols in place for calling out Coastguard assistance will need to be reviewed and any lessons that might be learned from the R116 tragedy taken on board. I'm not saying in any way that the R116/R118 callout was not justified- how would I know-.

They thought he was missing a hand when it was only a finger. Someone is responsible for the confusion.

Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

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