BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

end of the road · 02-04-2017 08:21PM

devnull wrote: »

Most of the issues have been caused by
- Union objections
- Unions moaning about tender criteria
- Unions moaning about being forced to transfer to another company
- Union moaning about TUPE
- Unions moaning about possibly sharing depots
- Unions saying wages should be took out of criteria

that wouldn't take a couple of years to sort out. a day of listening negotiation and talking at most. the unions would be correct to raise those issues, i wouldn't expect anything less. but i would be very surprised if that is in any way responsible for the length of time been taken to get the program up and running.

murphaph · 02-04-2017 08:27PM

end of the road wrote: »

that wouldn't take a couple of years to sort out. a day of listening negotiation and talking at most. the unions would be correct to raise those issues, i wouldn't expect anything less. but i would be very surprised if that is in any way responsible for the length of time been taken to get the program up and running.

Hopefully we'll soon find out.

n97 mini · 02-04-2017 08:44PM

end of the road wrote:

varadkar doesn't put any value on public services anyway in my view so when it comes to any public service he will say it is nice to have but not essential.

The PPT was reopened under his instruction, so for you to claim that is bogus. He doesn't value bully boy tactics at a disposable company, and I agree with him.

Gael23 · 02-04-2017 08:50PM

There are reports of the WRC preparing to issue an invitation to talks.

devnull · 02-04-2017 08:55PM

Gael23 wrote: »

There are reports of the WRC preparing to issue an invitation to talks.

On the basis of no more wildcat strikes.

IE 222 · 02-04-2017 08:58PM

devnull wrote: »

There is no comparison between the NTA and CIE, the NTA are a regulator, CIE are n operator, comparing them is like saying that DAA are the New Aer Lingus, it's absurd.

And if you want to trace it even further back it's not from the state it's from the taxpayer. If the buses were sold who would they go to? Operators in Ireland? Sounds like a good deal to me, the buses are sold to operators to operate services, the taxpayer gets money to invest in services by the company buying them.

They made the decisions to open the Phoenix Park Tunnel after many years of Irish Rail saying it couldn't be done, the moment that the NTA told them it was going to be done and they would provide funding for it suddenly it could be done without any problem, note that Irish Rail never said they couldn't afford it, they said that it could not be done, funny how they spent many years resisting it but soon as a regulator comes in it's no problem.

They mange financing, licensing, intergration of the brands and public transport through a journey planner app and proper real time integration, will shortly take over provision of information at bus stops, they develop tourist initiatives, provision of multi-mode travel information at high traffic areas, production of mapping that includes all public transport providers, provision of multi-mode discount ticketing, represent the public when it comes to fare determinations (that previously the company had free reign on) oversee vehicle purchases and are accountable for making sure companies only get capital investment in exchange for improvements as opposed to handing over blank cheques.

For too long before the NTA the Department of Transport was nothing but a Downtown office for CIE and was only too happy to please them with nobody standing up for the passengers, the only people who I see to be so critical of NTA happen to be people linked to the trade union movement, people who are enthusiasts of the state companies and believe they are more important than the bigger picture, or employees of the company itself, a regulator is vital to stand up for the rights of the public in what is supposed to be a public transport system, an un-regulated environment is bad for the customers, bad for passengers and bad for taxpayers.

CIE don't really operate services these days either. NTA will be responsible for country wide bus services now and will be supplying the buses and paying the PSOs effectively making them a bus operator in a roundabout way.

State - taxpayer same thing really.

If these PO are flush with cash to buy all these buses sure why do they need PSOs. Can you confirm a tour operator or UK firm won't buy the bulk of these buses for other means. I'd be pretty sure any proceeds from the sale of buses won't be getting reinvested into services.

The NTA one day decided that the PPT was to be opened for passenger services......

n97 mini · 02-04-2017 09:00PM

devnull wrote: »

On the basis of no more wildcat strikes.

From the radio today I was of the understanding that the WRC's policy was to not issue invitations if any strike is in progress. Disappointed if that has changed.

thomasj · 02-04-2017 09:02PM

According to rte it would be on the basis that both parties would be satisfied that progress could be made.

IE 222 · 02-04-2017 09:07PM

Stephen15 wrote: »

I was in Berlin circa 2003/2004 and there was a fully operational real time system in place at nearly every Bus/Tram stop so yes the technology was there. The NTA was set up if I'm not mistaken so the department of transport could have more control over the CIE group of companies and other transport providers and has suceeded creating a more integrated transport system across Bus, Rail, Luas, Cycling and Taxis.

When has Ireland ever taken the lead in things like this. Technology in Ireland is still way behind other nations.

end of the road · 02-04-2017 09:09PM

n97 mini wrote: »

The PPT was reopened under his instruction, so for you to claim that is bogus. He doesn't value bully boy tactics at a disposable company, and I agree with him.

but there is no disposible company.

IE 222 wrote: »

CIE don't really operate services these days either. NTA will be responsible for country wide bus services now and will be supplying the buses and paying the PSOs effectively making them a bus operator in a roundabout way.

State - taxpayer same thing really.

If these PO are flush with cash to buy all these buses sure why do they need PSOs. Can you confirm a tour operator or UK firm won't buy the bulk of these buses for other means. I'd be pretty sure any proceeds from the sale of buses won't be getting reinvested into services.

The NTA one day decided that the PPT was to be opened for passenger services......

yup, whatever is got for the busses will likely go to paying the creditors. i would be surprised if the big uk operators didn't snap up as many of the CIE/BE owned ones as possible if the worst came to the worst.

IE 222 · 02-04-2017 09:10PM

devnull wrote: »

And that is the problem, DB/IR for years were promising things left right and center but never delivered, they had huge amounts of taxpayers money but didn't deliver any project on time or in a way which benefited the customer to the most, they were always doing what would serve them but there was very little customer focus, the upturn in customer focus, which is still barely adequate, co-incised with the NTA calling the shots and holding them to account.

I agree that the DART had a real time system, but what you keep forgetting is that all of these companies were focusing on sloughing their own furrow and doing things for their own company but not thinking of public transport as a whole, it's a total scandal that you have three companies all part of the same parent who were duplicating work and not even thinking of passengers who used both of them, each of them doing their own journey planner, each of them doing their own app, each of them doing their own maps, do you see the same in other ciites?

The journey planner system was very much a full NTA project from start to finish because when they came into office they ripped up what was already there and instead contracted a very respected German company Mentz Datenverarbeitung, who are considered the leaders in their field to build a new planner from the ground up based on the same technology and system that is used for many of the main cities in Europe.

The Leap Card was initially a project of the RPA in it's initial development phase but the development over the last five years to add tourist passes, mutli-mode discounts, wallet functionality, leap card app, student leap card, scholar leap card etc. The RPA awarded the contract to operate the scheme to HP shortly before responsibility transferred over to the NTA who then managed the launch and integration of the system (I can tell you all this because I was one of the closed beta testers before the public call for testers), the staff on the RPA side who managed the project transferred over to the NTA.

Exactly they sub contracted the work out and used somebody else's system you go on as if they invented these systems.

IE 222 · 02-04-2017 09:12PM

devnull wrote: »

Nobody will buy them, however they might buy their assets.

What assets do they have that is significant for running services. As you stated the NTA own majority of buses. Any revenue created will be used to cover the cost of shutting down BE

murphaph · 02-04-2017 09:17PM

IE 222 wrote: »

When has Ireland ever taken the lead in things like this. Technology in Ireland is still way behind other nations.

This stuff is off the shelf technology. It's pure laziness that prevented the CIE companies from having comprehensive RTI years ago, especially Irish Rail. I remember for years the out of service displays all along the Maynooth line. It worked as far as Drumcondra lol.

That's what happens when a company exists primarily for the employees. Providing quality public transport has always played a distant second fiddle in CIE.

IE 222 · 02-04-2017 09:21PM

end of the road wrote: »

but there is no disposible company.

yup, whatever is got for the busses will likely go to paying the creditors. i would be surprised if the big uk operators didn't snap up as many of the CIE/BE owned ones as possible if the worst came to

Buses will be sold to the highest bidders. If PO need PSO to operate services then they hardly have the funds to buy a fleet of buses.

devnull · 02-04-2017 09:26PM

IE 222 wrote: »

CIE don't really operate services these days either. NTA will be responsible for country wide bus services now and will be supplying the buses and paying the PSOs effectively making them a bus operator in a roundabout way.

The NTA is a regulator, it does not have any buses or any subsiduaries with a PSV or operators licenses, CIE is a transport company, it has two companies beneath it in the group which do have operators licenses and have over a thousand vehicles directly on those licenses.

Anyone who uses the term roundabout way is struggling to make a valid point in my book, I prefer to look at things on a factual basis, they are, or they are not, it's the typical mantra of the BE/DB unions and their supporters, anything good is not the result of the NTA and is the result of the companies whilst anything that bad happens should be laid at their door and has nothing to do with the companies.

If these PO are flush with cash to buy all these buses sure why do they need PSOs.

Buying buses is only one element of running a service, both you and I know that and also they depreciate over time which plays part in a companies finances. Cost of funding vehicles would be classified as capital investment and running the service as business costs.

If you expect the privates to net spend say €50m on vehicles and run the same services as BE who have a net subsidy of €100m I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make but it's another comparison of an apple with an orange it appears.

Can you confirm a tour operator or UK firm won't buy the bulk of these buses for other means.

Can you confirm an Irish operator or an Irish Tour operator won't buy the bulk of these buses for means of running services in Ireland?

I'd be pretty sure any proceeds from the sale of buses won't be getting reinvested into services.

I'd be pretty sure that they would be myself.

We'll just have to see unless you have a crystal ball.

The NTA one day decided that the PPT was to be opened for passenger services......

According to Irish Rail it was not possible and they spent the last however many years saying that it could not and would not be done and it could not happen, however once Irish Rail were told to do so, suddenly they were able to do something they spent years saying they couldn't.

devnull · 02-04-2017 09:36PM

IE 222 wrote: »

Exactly they sub contracted the work out and used somebody else's system you go on as if they invented these systems.

Yeah, they used the same people who are experts in their field and have built solutions for Transport for London and many other cities around Europe and across the world since they figured that best to have a proven solution than contract some company who makes a balls up of it who has no experience with creating such solutions.

The problem in the past was that contracts were previously being awarded to companies who had no experience in developing such scale of systems and the solutions were not very good and riddled with problems, this was why they were taking so long to develop, behind schedule and never made it to production, far better to work with experts than an amateur.

IE 222 wrote: »

What assets do they have that is significant for running services. As you stated the NTA own majority of buses. Any revenue created will be used to cover the cost of shutting down BE

The whole Expressway Fleet is owned by Bus Eireann, there is infrastructure and buildings that are owned by Bus Eireann, PSO vehicles pre-2012 are owed by Bus Eireann, there will be maintenance equipment that could be sold, they have quite a lot of assets like any transport company would have.

murphaph wrote: »

This stuff is off the shelf technology. It's pure laziness that prevented the CIE companies from having comprehensive RTI years ago, especially Irish Rail. I remember for years the out of service displays all along the Maynooth line. It worked as far as Drumcondra lol.

The German's to be fair have led the way with this, they were well ahead of the rest, companies like HaCon and Mentz Datenverarbeitung are powering many systems all around the world and have become a case study of how to run public transport information, for too long we developed in-house systems that were not really functional and prone to problems, going with HaCon and Mentz Datenverarbeitung and contracting HPE to run the Leap Card project were excellent ideas because all of them have an excellent track record.

n97 mini · 02-04-2017 09:48PM

end of the road wrote: »

but there is no disposible company

BE is not essential. What can it do that another bus company can't?

end of the road · 02-04-2017 10:10PM

n97 mini wrote: »

BE is not essential. What can it do that another bus company can't?

be is essential for those who rely on it.

amcalester · 02-04-2017 10:13PM

end of the road wrote: »

be is essential for those who rely on it.

The service is essential, BE is not.

end of the road · 02-04-2017 10:17PM

amcalester wrote: »

The service is essential, BE is not.

it really is . assuming it survives and hopefully it will, service can be resumed the minute the strike ends. if it doesn't, there is the potential for a very lengthy period without service for many.

n97 mini · 02-04-2017 10:18PM

end of the road wrote: »

be is essential for those who rely on it.

What can BE do that others can't?

amcalester · 02-04-2017 10:28PM

end of the road wrote: »

it really is . assuming it survives and hopefully it will, service can be resumed the minute the strike ends. if it doesn't, there is the potential for a very lengthy period without service for many.

I think you're under estimating how long it will take to get a service up and running should BE fail.

POs could be brought in on PSO routes on short term contracts while a full tender process is completed.

Jamie2k9 · 02-04-2017 10:32PM

end of the road wrote: »

it really is . assuming it survives and hopefully it will, service can be resumed the minute the strike ends. if it doesn't, there is the potential for a very lengthy period without service for many.

BE will financially struggle to recover even if it's resolved this week, there will be lots of passengers who will not return.

Gael23 · 02-04-2017 10:55PM

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

BE will financially struggle to recover even if it's resolved this week, there will be lots of passengers who will not return.

And that is the wider issue that BE faces. the lack of direct services offered at a significantly higher cost than private operators will one day be the downfall of the company if it survives the current scenario.

end of the road · 02-04-2017 10:58PM

amcalester wrote: »

I think you're under estimating how long it will take to get a service up and running should BE fail.

oh i don't think so.

amcalester wrote: »

POs could be brought in on PSO routes on short term contracts while a full tender process is completed.

they could but there is the potential for that to even take a good while.

devnull · 02-04-2017 11:11PM

Secondary picket ‘had to happen’, NBRU bus driver tells PBP conference
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/secondary-picket-had-to-happen-nbru-bus-driver-tells-pbp-conference-1.3034005

A member of the National Bus and Rail Union (NBRU) national executive has defended Friday’s wildcat secondary picketing of Dublin Bus and Iarnród Éireann depots. Sean Thunder, a bus driver based at Broadstone, Dublin, said: “What happened on Friday I make no apologies to anybody for.”

He said that the secondary picketing “had to happen. I really don’t know what’s going to happen next”. He added the drivers themselves organised Friday’s protests.

“You go down on the picket line for eight days, and nothing is happening,” he said. “I apologise to the individual travelling public. I really do. You wake up in the morning and your service is gone. But I’m going to wake up some morning and my job will be gone.”

“I earned €42,600 last year. I took home somewhere between €600 and €640 a week,” he said. “With the cuts that they’re proposing, I’m looking at €500 a week. That’s just not sustainable.

“I would be better off on the dole. I would earn €350.80 a week if I stayed at home. But that’s not what any of us want to do. We want an honest day’s pay for an honest day’s work. My earliest start is 4 am and my latest finish is 2 am. I work Saturdays and Sundays. I work every second Sunday throughout the year, bank holidays and all.

“I transport everybody wherever they want to go. I’m like a counsellor. A public servant is what I am. It’s so unfair that the Government agenda is trying to privatise every service that we have.”

The NBRU representative, who has been with the company for nine years, was speaking at the People Before Profit (PBP) political party’s annual conference, which took place at Wynn’s Hotel, Dublin.

Eight NBRU and Siptu drivers attended the conference, where they were greeted by a standing ovation from about 200 delegates who repeatedly chanted the slogan “the workers united will never be defeated”.

Mr Thunder said the only way the dispute could be resolved was through the intervention of Minister for Transport Shane Ross and the National Transport Authority (NTA).

A second driver, John North, of Siptu, who is based in Kerry, said: “This is not a battle, it is a war.”

Mr North said the secondary picketing was an “inconvenience to the people on the ‘Dort’ [sic] and those people that cannot think for themselves and actually say ‘do you know what, let’s get behind these people’ because it’s your future as well”.

He expressed his disappointment that PBP was the only party to show support when Bus Éireann drivers protested outside the Dáil. No rural TDs approached them or showed interest in the dispute.

Mr North said private company drivers were not going to drive the service “I drive from Waterville to Cahersiveen to Killarney twice a day, carrying old age pensioners, people with special needs”.

Pay cut
He added that the company and the Minister for Transport expected him to take a 30 per cent pay cut, “and it just can’t be done”.

Mr North said “to all students, all the working-class people, we are sorry, apologetic to yourselves. We don’t want to be out on strike, but unfortunately we were forced to.”

PBP TD Bríd Smith said, to sustained applause and cheers, that she was “immensely proud of what they did on Friday”.

Ms Smith, a former bus driver and bus conductor with Dublin Bus and the NBRU’s first female branch secretary, said Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford city, and other towns and villages, had been without any public transport for the past eight days.

She said “they were very quiet in the Dáil and very quiet in the media until they shut Dublin down, and they did a fine job”.

Ms Smith added: “Actually, what they did was to show that solidarity that people can stick together and can be united and can fight and win, and [that’s] still a hugely important element of the working class of the 21st century.”

LeinsterDub · 02-04-2017 11:21PM

end of the road wrote: »

be is essential for those who rely on it.

No it's not it's easily replaced.

JCX BXC · 02-04-2017 11:27PM

€42,700 for an unskilled job is nearly unheard of.

I feel some very limited sympathy for the Bus Drivers, they've seen DB and Luas drivers getting their bread and wanted some of the game.

Suddenly they were hit with the reality that infact BE are near closure and their wages need to be reformed to a sustainable level.

If their wages had been reduced a while back as opposed to letting this unsustainable game playing on maybe they wouldn't feel so hard done by.

So is life, so is reality. I'm afraid if you feel like the dole isn't such a bad option that's where you may be heading.

end of the road · 02-04-2017 11:41PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

No it's not it's easily replaced.

it is essential to those who rely on it. it isn't easily replacible, but replacible after an unknown period of most likely no service for many areas.

JCX BXC wrote: »

€42,700 for an unskilled job is nearly unheard of.

I feel some very limited sympathy for the Bus Drivers, they've seen DB and Luas drivers getting their bread and wanted some of the game.

Suddenly they were hit with the reality that infact BE are near closure and their wages need to be reformed to a sustainable level.

If their wages had been reduced a while back as opposed to letting this unsustainable game playing on maybe they wouldn't feel so hard done by.

So is life, so is reality. I'm afraid if you feel like the dole isn't such a bad option that's where you may be heading.

it's a semi-skilled job with a lot of responsibility. therefore the core pay wage on it's own is justified. some of the privates pay levels aren't far off be's core pay levels.

02-04-2017 11:45PM

Ms Smith added: “Actually, what they did was to show that solidarity that people can stick together and can be united and can fight and win, and [that’s] still a hugely important element of the working class of the 21st century.”

Yeah Ms Smith these lads on strike know working class the same as a one income family on minimum wage does :rolleyes:

BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

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