BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

n97 mini · 02-04-2017 06:49PM

Leo Vradakar quoted today as saying BE is nice to have, but not essential. They don't do anything any other bus company couldn't do.

If that's the value the govt puts on BE, may as well call in the receivers now.

I look forward to all the PSO routes being put out to a multitude of companies. One operator able to disrupt the majority of services is not good for the country.

Stephen15 · 02-04-2017 06:50PM

Introduction of real time information
Introduction of leap cards
Introduction of student leap/discount card
Introduction of a journey planner app
Introduction of WiFi across BE, IE and DB services

And they're just the major things the NTA have done, plenty of smaller things aswell. I'm DB/IE/BE wouldn't have all those things on their own.

IE 222 · 02-04-2017 06:52PM

trellheim wrote: »

Just to be clear - no-one here wants the PSO routes gone - and they won't be . But one bus is much like another bus.

Political suicide ? FF amazingly back from the dead . No sign of a GE ( FF not wanting one is another matter but it wont be BE that decides it , if the Garda Commissioner codology won't do it, what price a bus company ? ) Deal with reality lads

take the pay rise on offer - as that's what it is.

Hired in labour from outside ? One driver is much like another once they learn the route . As a negotiating stance this probably isnt the best foot forward here

Haven't seen much of Brian Cowen and many of his chums since 2008. Where is DOCTOR James Reilly, in the Senate, the list goes on. Your right this won't cause a GE now but people remember.

I didn't create the idea of bringing in new drivers it was suggested as a solution when there will be a shortage of drivers. Didn't Irish ferries try something like this before didn't exactly go well for them and pretty much back to square one now.

Brendan Bendar · 02-04-2017 06:53PM

n97 mini wrote: »

Leo Vradakar quoted today as saying BE is nice to have, but not essential. They don't do anything any other bus company couldn't do.

If that's the value the govt puts on BE, may as well call in the receivers now.

I look forward to all the PSO routes being put out to a multitude of companies. One operator able to disrupt the majority of services is not good for the country.

would've very surprised if that loophole was t closed after this event ends.

n97 mini · 02-04-2017 06:56PM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

would've very surprised if that loophole was t closed after this event ends.

I'm really hoping that the NTA are planning for a post-BE era of bus transport in Ireland. But I'm not getting my hopes up either. They're PS woorkers as well, and probably unionised.

IE 222 · 02-04-2017 06:59PM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Unions going into 'negotiations' with the pre condition as per O'Leary that their members would not give an inch on pay and conditions, given the fact that the company was due to become insolvent within a few weeks is a strange way to operate, I would have to say.

Seems to me Noone and OLeary 'took a punt' and banked on the Govt. as happened when FF were in charge had opened the purse strings and kicked the can down the road.

Seems they backed the wrong horse on this occasion.

I agree the unions haven't been great but the blame can't lie with just the unions and staff. The company itself is wasteful and management wages alone could offer big savings.

I do think if everyone involved make some changes and work together the company could become a success in a few years.

IE 222 · 02-04-2017 07:00PM

BoatMad wrote: »

IM not aware that suddenly there are no buses in Ireland if BE goes.

PSO routes can simply be franked out.

there is no need for BE. thats clear

Where are all these buses that are ready to go.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 02-04-2017 07:06PM

IE 222 wrote: »

I agree the unions haven't been great but the blame can't lie with just the unions and staff. The company itself is wasteful and management wages alone could offer big savings.

I do think if everyone involved make some changes and work together the company could become a success in a few years.

How many management are there compared to staff? Much fewer management.

None of the management are on bumper salaries either. Similar to the union bosses by and large.

Staff will have to take some pain. The offer by management is a bit deluded. Pay rise has been offered to staff if they give up overtime. This has been rejected.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 02-04-2017 07:09PM

IE 222 wrote: »

Where are all these buses that are ready to go.

Bus Eireann busses owned by the NTA could be taken back and the use of them could be given with contracts to operate routes to private operators.

n97 mini · 02-04-2017 07:14PM

IE 222 wrote: »

Where are all these buses that are ready to go.

Sitting idle in BE depots. An hour in the paint shop and they can be back on the road.

n97 mini · 02-04-2017 07:16PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Pay rise has been offered to staff if they give up overtime. This has been rejected.

It's a reduction in over time rates and elimination of over time payments where staff didn't actually turn up for work (currently paid, With absenteeism running at 4x the rate in the private sector)

IE 222 · 02-04-2017 07:19PM

BoatMad wrote: »

what freight , there about two freight trains a day in the last 10 years. IE single tracked the tunnel , but the main reason , that IE "rediscovered " the tunnel was that DU was killed. The Tunnel was an awkward embarrassment for IE when DU was active

Tunnel wasn't single tracked it was relayed to suit required movement.

IE 222 · 02-04-2017 07:27PM

devnull wrote: »

They are not a new CIE because they do not operate services and they have an overarching responsibilityto the public to manage the whole system and have a track record of integrating things. One has to ask why it takes a regulator or an overarching authority to make sister companies work together, one of the biggest issues with CIE is that despite the fact all three companies were sister and brother to each other, they spent the best part of a decade or two just digging their own way without any attempt to work with each other.

As an enthusiast of public transport rather than of one particular company like some people on some forums appear to be, I can see the bigger picture and the NTA have done a lot of work on integration and trying to provide a joined up system which has been resisted by the CIE companies who are too busy looking after their own interests than the bigger public transport infrastructure, they see other operators as the enemies when the PSO arms should be putting that to one side.

Do you think the €100m that the NTA have invested in Bus Eireann each year for some of the last few years will simply be burnt and not used for this? Through tendering they will save money because monopolies never give good value for money in any industry and always drive up cost, there are many many examples of this throughout Europe and throughout the world.

Until 2009 and the Public Transport Regulation Act, private operators did not have a level playing field when it came to applying for services, in-case it escaped your notice this led to a number of private operators bringing the then Department of Transport, dreadfully prone to political interference to court and in one case it was found that the Department had made an error which heavily effected an operator because the playing field was not level. There were many stories of licenses taking years to process whilst publicly operated licenses were dealt with very fast especially when it involved helping someone secure a seat in a forthcoming election.

You also say the motorways created the services but this couldn't be further from the truth. Bus Eireann claimed there would be no demand for these services and without the 2009 Public Transport Regulation Act there is no assurance that these services would have been able to start because the operators would not have a clear right to start them, in-fact a few years before the NTA was established every license application was sent from the DFT to CIE to inspect, which is laughable and a truly dysfunctional system that puts the company before the public.

Considering they have had union recognition via SIPTU for around 12 years and there has never been any murmuring of a ballot from what I can find on Google let alone industrial action of any kind let alone a strike, I think this is a moot point. There to my knowledge, has been no private bus company that has gone on strike in Ireland.

Many things were "designed and decided upon" by others and many things were "coming soon" as Dublin Bus, Irish Rail and Bus Eireann told us for years on end, but the thing was as much as they talked the talk there was little to back it up in actual actions until the NTA came on the scene and bashed a few heads together to represent the customer. The basic form of the leap card may have been decided in past but the many developments the NTA have made to it were not in the initial spec and if DB/BE/IR had their way leap fares would be much more expensive and save far less for the passenger and not have some of the features they currently have.

Before you disagree with this, you should look through the various fare determinations of the past few years and see what the NTA have allowed and what the operators have proposed, you will find there is a big difference in some cases where the NTA have restricted or prevented changes that would not be in the interests of consumers on PSO services or those who use multiple methods of transport.

I go on their current record and they have never left anyone behind, but at the same time it has to be appreciated that services need to have frequency and capacity that is closer matched to demand, for instance if one route services 10 and the bus service is only averaging 10 passengers a day, they should not expect to have a hourly bus service from 8am to 8pm on a full sized coach that carries one or two passengers on each run.

They will effectively be the new CIE. CIE don't run services for that matter anymore either.

Again that 100million is funding from the state for bus travel and if the government can't afford to give it then the NTA is worth nothing as they have no means of producing these funds themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if the NTA are told to sell off some buses to cover the cost of shutting BE down.

NTA don't really make the big decisions. Are you going to tell me next these will decide on Metro north, DU or reopen closed rail lines. They manage financing and ask for a certain level of service to be met. If no one can meet these levels it's not as if they will have the capability to run the services themselves.

Stephen15 · 02-04-2017 07:31PM

Back on topic I read in the IT that the WRC a has invited both sides to talks on condition that there is to be no more wildcat strikes. Apologies for the lack of link feel free to look up Bus Eireann first that comes in the google news heading.

IE 222 · 02-04-2017 07:33PM

BoatMad wrote: »

1. Nothing wrong with private operators , nowhere does it say that bus drivers have to be employees of the state

2. not fold it up, merely offer it ( along with pSO subsidies ) to other operators

4. BE has a balance sheet problem , not a cash liquidity issue. CIE cant help it. its either makes a profit or it becomes insolvent and effectively cant trade. This problem is specific in the CIE group to BE.

Do you believe someone is likely to buy Bus Eireann

IE 222 · 02-04-2017 07:41PM

Stephen15 wrote: »

Introduction of real time information
Introduction of leap cards
Introduction of student leap/discount card
Introduction of a journey planner app
Introduction of WiFi across BE, IE and DB services

And they're just the major things the NTA have done, plenty of smaller things aswell. I'm DB/IE/BE wouldn't have all those things on their own.

I'm pretty sure Dart at least had a real time system in place before NTA. DB had a failed system but technology wasn't were it is today back then.

Anyway leap card, journey planner and WiFi weren't the NTA's making. These came from government and the process implementation was managed by the NTA.

IE 222 · 02-04-2017 07:44PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Bus Eireann busses owned by the NTA could be taken back and the use of them could be given with contracts to operate routes to private operators.

Overnight.

IE 222 · 02-04-2017 07:46PM

n97 mini wrote: »

Sitting idle in BE depots. An hour in the paint shop and they can be back on the road.

That simple. Should of been last week then. I think some of them buses along with BE and CIE lot will be used to cover the cost of shutting down BE and paying off staff.

IE 222 · 02-04-2017 07:47PM

n97 mini wrote: »

It's a reduction in over time rates and elimination of over time payments where staff didn't actually turn up for work (currently paid, With absenteeism running at 4x the rate in the private sector)

I agree staff should have this absence agreement removed.

IE 222 · 02-04-2017 07:50PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

How many management are there compared to staff? Much fewer management.

None of the management are on bumper salaries either. Similar to the union bosses by and large.

Staff will have to take some pain. The offer by management is a bit deluded. Pay rise has been offered to staff if they give up overtime. This has been rejected.

Pay cuts alone won't fix the problems. The overtime absence agreement needs to be axed and look at some land sales for a start.

devnull · 02-04-2017 07:51PM

IE 222 wrote: »

They will effectively be the new CIE. CIE don't run services for that matter anymore either.

There is no comparison between the NTA and CIE, the NTA are a regulator, CIE are n operator, comparing them is like saying that DAA are the New Aer Lingus, it's absurd.

Again that 100million is funding from the state for bus travel and if the government can't afford to give it then the NTA is worth nothing as they have no means of producing these funds themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if the NTA are told to sell off some buses to cover the cost of shutting BE down.

And if you want to trace it even further back it's not from the state it's from the taxpayer. If the buses were sold who would they go to? Operators in Ireland? Sounds like a good deal to me, the buses are sold to operators to operate services, the taxpayer gets money to invest in services by the company buying them.

NTA don't really make the big decisions. Are you going to tell me next these will decide on Metro north, DU or reopen closed rail lines. They manage financing and ask for a certain level of service to be met. If no one can meet these levels it's not as if they will have the capability to run the services themselves.

They made the decisions to open the Phoenix Park Tunnel after many years of Irish Rail saying it couldn't be done, the moment that the NTA told them it was going to be done and they would provide funding for it suddenly it could be done without any problem, note that Irish Rail never said they couldn't afford it, they said that it could not be done, funny how they spent many years resisting it but soon as a regulator comes in it's no problem.

They mange financing, licensing, intergration of the brands and public transport through a journey planner app and proper real time integration, will shortly take over provision of information at bus stops, they develop tourist initiatives, provision of multi-mode travel information at high traffic areas, production of mapping that includes all public transport providers, provision of multi-mode discount ticketing, represent the public when it comes to fare determinations (that previously the company had free reign on) oversee vehicle purchases and are accountable for making sure companies only get capital investment in exchange for improvements as opposed to handing over blank cheques.

For too long before the NTA the Department of Transport was nothing but a Downtown office for CIE and was only too happy to please them with nobody standing up for the passengers, the only people who I see to be so critical of NTA happen to be people linked to the trade union movement, people who are enthusiasts of the state companies and believe they are more important than the bigger picture, or employees of the company itself, a regulator is vital to stand up for the rights of the public in what is supposed to be a public transport system, an un-regulated environment is bad for the customers, bad for passengers and bad for taxpayers.

n97 mini · 02-04-2017 07:53PM

IE 222 wrote: »

That simple. Should of been last week then. I think some of them buses along with BE and CIE lot will be used to cover the cost of shutting down BE and paying off staff.

Should have been, but the regulations as they currently stand block anyone else from operating the PSO routes.

murphaph · 02-04-2017 08:00PM

devnull wrote: »

For too long before the NTA the Department of Transport was nothing but a Downtown office for CIE and was only too happy to please them with nobody standing up for the passengers, the only people who I see to be so critical of NTA happen to be people linked to the trade union movement, people who are enthusiasts of the state companies and believe they are more important than the bigger picture, or employees of the company itself, a regulator is vital to stand up for the rights of the public in what is supposed to be a public transport system, an un-regulated environment is bad for the customers, bad for passengers and bad for taxpayers.

^^ this. It's so obvious from reading this thread where everybody is coming from. I would appreciate a bit of honesty from those in the union camp to just say "we like our state jobs and above private sector pay and believe we are entitled to keep them, even if the taxpayer has to pony up more money (ie work harder) for this to happen" and not try to skirt around the issue with all sorts of defences for the fiasco that is CIE.

Stephen15 · 02-04-2017 08:02PM

IE 222 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Dart at least had a real time system in place before NTA. DB had a failed system but technology wasn't were it is today back then.

Anyway leap card, journey planner and WiFi weren't the NTA's making. These came from government and the process implementation was managed by the NTA.

I was in Berlin circa 2003/2004 and there was a fully operational real time system in place at nearly every Bus/Tram stop so yes the technology was there. The NTA was set up if I'm not mistaken so the department of transport could have more control over the CIE group of companies and other transport providers and has suceeded creating a more integrated transport system across Bus, Rail, Luas, Cycling and Taxis.

devnull · 02-04-2017 08:05PM

IE 222 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Dart at least had a real time system in place before NTA. DB had a failed system but technology wasn't were it is today back then.

And that is the problem, DB/IR for years were promising things left right and center but never delivered, they had huge amounts of taxpayers money but didn't deliver any project on time or in a way which benefited the customer to the most, they were always doing what would serve them but there was very little customer focus, the upturn in customer focus, which is still barely adequate, co-incised with the NTA calling the shots and holding them to account.

I agree that the DART had a real time system, but what you keep forgetting is that all of these companies were focusing on sloughing their own furrow and doing things for their own company but not thinking of public transport as a whole, it's a total scandal that you have three companies all part of the same parent who were duplicating work and not even thinking of passengers who used both of them, each of them doing their own journey planner, each of them doing their own app, each of them doing their own maps, do you see the same in other ciites?

Anyway leap card, journey planner and WiFi weren't the NTA's making. These came from government and the process implementation was managed by the NTA.

The journey planner system was very much a full NTA project from start to finish because when they came into office they ripped up what was already there and instead contracted a very respected German company Mentz Datenverarbeitung, who are considered the leaders in their field to build a new planner from the ground up based on the same technology and system that is used for many of the main cities in Europe.

The Leap Card was initially a project of the RPA in it's initial development phase but the development over the last five years to add tourist passes, mutli-mode discounts, wallet functionality, leap card app, student leap card, scholar leap card etc. The RPA awarded the contract to operate the scheme to HP shortly before responsibility transferred over to the NTA who then managed the launch and integration of the system (I can tell you all this because I was one of the closed beta testers before the public call for testers), the staff on the RPA side who managed the project transferred over to the NTA.

end of the road · 02-04-2017 08:09PM

BoatMad wrote: »

IM not aware that suddenly there are no buses in Ireland if BE goes.

PSO routes can simply be franked out.

there is no need for BE. thats clear

it would potentially take too long to franchise them out. be is needed. it's not the job of people to be without a service potentially long term because of a political agenda by government.

n97 mini wrote: »

Leo Vradakar quoted today as saying BE is nice to have, but not essential. They don't do anything any other bus company couldn't do.

If that's the value the govt puts on BE, may as well call in the receivers now.

I look forward to all the PSO routes being put out to a multitude of companies. One operator able to disrupt the majority of services is not good for the country.

disruption to the country in a strike situation isn't going to stop just because the routes would be put in the hands of multiple companies. the unions will likely seek pay increases for example across all companies at the same time. varadkar doesn't put any value on public services anyway in my view so when it comes to any public service he will say it is nice to have but not essential.

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Bus Eireann busses owned by the NTA could be taken back and the use of them could be given with contracts to operate routes to private operators.

only some of the busses are owned by the NTA. contracting the services could take god knows how long, if one uses the 10% tendering program that is under way as a basis to go on.

devnull · 02-04-2017 08:09PM

IE 222 wrote: »

Do you believe someone is likely to buy Bus Eireann

Nobody will buy them, however they might buy their assets.

devnull · 02-04-2017 08:11PM

end of the road wrote: »

only some of the busses are owned by the NTA. contracting the services could take god knows how long, if one uses the 10% tendering program that is under way as a basis to go on.

Most of the issues have been caused by
- Union objections
- Unions moaning about tender criteria
- Unions moaning about being forced to transfer to another company
- Union moaning about TUPE
- Unions moaning about possibly sharing depots
- Unions saying wages should be took out of criteria

end of the road · 02-04-2017 08:15PM

devnull wrote: »

Do you think the €100m that the NTA have invested in Bus Eireann each year for some of the last few years will simply be burnt and not used for this? Through tendering they will save money because monopolies never give good value for money in any industry and always drive up cost, there are many many examples of this throughout Europe and throughout the world.

we don't know they would save money as there are also many examples of privatization driving up cost. that is why the state company has to remain regardless of whether private operators exist or not in my view.

devnull wrote: »

Considering they have had union recognition via SIPTU for around 12 years and there has never been any murmuring of a ballot from what I can find on Google let alone industrial action of any kind let alone a strike, I think this is a moot point. There to my knowledge, has been no private bus company that has gone on strike in Ireland.

maybe then the caliber of management that are hired for the CIE companies needs to be looked at.

devnull wrote: »

I go on their current record and they have never left anyone behind, but at the same time it has to be appreciated that services need to have frequency and capacity that is closer matched to demand, for instance if one route services 10 and the bus service is only averaging 10 passengers a day, they should not expect to have a hourly bus service from 8am to 8pm on a full sized coach that carries one or two passengers on each run.

i disagree. if the route is not frequent enough then you can't expect people to bother with it. if the NTA approve cuts to PSO bus services and to rail services then effectively they are leaving people behind.

devnull wrote: »

If the buses were sold who would they go to? Operators in Ireland? Sounds like a good deal to me, the buses are sold to operators to operate services, the taxpayer gets money to invest in services by the company buying them.

they could also go to the uk. whoever would put in the highest bid for the busses would get them.

devnull · 02-04-2017 08:17PM

end of the road wrote: »

we don't know they would save money as there are also many examples of privatization driving up cost.

De-regulation yes, tendering which is regulated no.

i disagree. if the route is not frequent enough then you can't expect people to bother with it. if the NTA approve cuts to PSO bus services and to rail services then effectively they are leaving people behind.

You have to draw the line somewhere though, you can't have every village having a bus every half an hour if such buses are only carrying a couple of people, there needs to be services but at the same time you can't expect to have the same level in the middle of nowhere that you have in a middle of city.

BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

Comments