BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

L1011 · 31-03-2017 03:51PM

Quackster wrote: »

Unfortunately successive governments have been too spineless to introduce mandatory union recognition.

The collective bargaining legislation has all but done this, in a manner that FG were willing to let pass.

Quackster · 31-03-2017 03:59PM

MKH wrote: »

We talk a lot about the inter-city services here as well as the rural routes, but you've also got to consider the urban and suburban bus services in Cork. There is no private competition for BE in that sphere at the moment and these services no doubt are a significant part of BE's business.

Given the high number of commuters in Cork and the major businesses with a presence in the city, those services should be able to financially stand on their own. It seems very obvious to me that the solution should be a competitive bidding process for these contracts. That's on the political side of things - it's not an ironclad rule that public transport in Cork needs to be provided by BE.

In general, I think the government(s) should get involved not to sort out the BE dispute but to re-organize public transport in Ireland in a financially sustainable way, moving beyond the 'taxpayer money grows on trees' model relied upon by the public sector unions.

Totally true. BÉ's city and town services should be split off into a separate operating company to begin with and then the operation of individual routes tendered out over a period of time, whilst maintaining a single branding and integrated pricing structure. This also needs to happen with DB routes, as has been promised.

Existing private city operators like City Direct should also be brought within this single branding and pricing structure.

XPS_Zero · 31-03-2017 04:00PM

bk wrote: »

I have a great deal of respect for what the unions of the early 1900's did for the ordinary worker and our nation.

They fought hard for a decent wage for a hard days work and improved conditions and safety standards. They also fought hard for the birth of our country and worked hard to build it to what it is today.

However I think those famous labour leaders would be horrified at what the modern union movement has become today.

Union bosses earning 100k+, representing mostly very well paid and on very good conditions mostly semi-state employees, while the common man on the street gets little or no representation and worst of all holding the whole country to ransom for their unjust demands!

And on top of that the way they have been insulting and threatening our democratically elected representatives in government!

It is all pretty sickening and I believe the unions leaders of the past would be simply appalled at it all and would say that it has nothing to do with the proud labour and union movements of the past.

Union heads will often remind me of those gains like the weekend

Well ...well done lads cos you're doing everything you can to undermine unions and those gains with PR blunders like this
Why do you think k people voted in the likes of Thatcher? Their trash was piling up in the streets from strikes

Now it's even more dangerous because we're entering an era where technology and globalisation are outpacing labour law which hasn't caught up with it yet

We're facing employers in Ireland demanding Facebook passwords, employers in the USA demanding genetic tests to find out what illnesses employees are predisposed to so they can hike their health insurance premiums which are often linked to you job there

We're facing into a time that can go one of two ways ; we can make these changes in tech and economy work for us or live in the dystopia the 80s movies and Star Trek predicted the 21st century would be

Union heads heading into their 60s and 70s still trying to live in 1970 work practices are undermining unions in the public mindset, one of the key tools we could use to collectively push this process away from the dystopian ending

But who cares right?

You'll be dead. But your kids and grandkids will have to live through it
There are long term consequences to what you're doing you are blind to!

XPS_Zero · 31-03-2017 04:08PM

I gotta say I love how the drivers are saying on radio "were the only ones that pick up the little old ladies in unprofitable routes" when but 3 weeks ago they were blaming BEs entire insolvency (incorrectly) on the travel pass costs and calling for them to be charged to save their overtime

They're free loading moochers sinking the business one day the next they're the poor owl people they're trying to save from a 40 mile walk

__Alex__ · 31-03-2017 04:44PM

MKH wrote: »

People who think accepting 40k as a low skill worker would make them 'cheap labour' obviously have such a distorted view of the job market, they'd be in for a big surprise.

Exactly. My highly-skilled carpenter and joiner father never made 40k a year. These people are deluded.

end of the road · 31-03-2017 04:46PM

XPS_Zero wrote: »

We need to wind BE up, licence commercial routes and tender PSO ones with subsidies and FT grants like we do for likes of Swords Express

we don't. be must remain and tendering must be faught against as it brings nothing to the table in my view.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

This can never be allowed to happen again a signal has to be sent

there is no signal to be sent as people are allowed to strike. strikes have to happen from time to time whether one agrees with them or not.

bk wrote: »

Well the latest from the to guys in government doesn't look good for the unions:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0331/864017-bus-eireann-dispute/

Basically there seems to be little interest from the government to get involved. They have the publics support and aren't under any pressure to bend to the unions demands.

the only reason some of the public support the government is they want to attack anyone who earns more then them. if that means supporting a government who implemented unaffordible tax after unaffordible tax against people's will, over workers who earn more then them then so be it as far as they are concerned. but the same public will stand idely by and allow their own terms and conditions to be attacked and driven into nothing while complaining about the public sector unions not supporting them dispite not signing up to be a member.
ross has a lot less public support on this issue then many think. plenty support the drivers, not because they agree with them fighting against cuts to overtime but because they see the bigger picture.

bk wrote: »

I have a great deal of respect for what the unions of the early 1900's did for the ordinary worker and our nation.

They fought hard for a decent wage for a hard days work and improved conditions and safety standards. They also fought hard for the birth of our country and worked hard to build it to what it is today.

However I think those famous labour leaders would be horrified at what the modern union movement has become today.

Union bosses earning 100k+, representing mostly very well paid and on very good conditions mostly semi-state employees, while the common man on the street gets little or no representation and worst of all holding the whole country to ransom for their unjust demands!

And on top of that the way they have been insulting and threatening our democratically elected representatives in government!

It is all pretty sickening and I believe the unions leaders of the past would be simply appalled at it all and would say that it has nothing to do with the proud labour and union movements of the past.

the union leaders would be very happy that the unions continue to stand up for their members. the union leaders earn what they earn because the members decide that is what they earn. if the members decide that won't be paid then it won't be paid. the little man on the street won't join the union so why would and should a union they won't be a member of represent them? if you want union representation, join a union, or if you feel none of the unions represent you then form one.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Why do you think k people voted in the likes of Thatcher?

the same reason people voted for trump. because she sold the people a pup.

diarmconnolly · 31-03-2017 04:48PM

That's an awful lot of "we"s for the head of an action group made of politicians rather than unionised bus drivers.

All I've heard is Unions and drivers telling us what this strike isn't about. How about telling us what is behind it rather than bluffing on about how it's in our best interest?

The entire argument smacks of a work base who has never worked in an environment where they're expected to meet certain standards, where they're supposed to take responsibility for their own performance and not act like spoilt children refused sweets at the supermarket counter.

I've no doubt at all that there are serious failings at management level, largely in their inability to recruit, train or demand employees delivering a public service who show basic human courtesy in dealing with the public.

These drivers are working half the hours yet being paid more than critical members of our society like nurses, teachers and police officers. There are drivers cherry picking routes, hours and overtime as they see fit and yet they still cannot manage to remain polite and friendly while dealing with customers.

And then as company which provides the outdated bubble they profit from is going to the wall, rather than work to find some compromise which would likely still maintain an outcome better than they deserve, they are trying to blackmail the government and taxpayers into subsidising their status quo? Ridiculous.

I am not entirely convinced by the argument for private operators and certainly not for full deregulation, but I can't deny that the idea of these drivers being forced to apply for and then maintain jobs in the real world is very appealing.

animaal · 31-03-2017 05:01PM

end of the road wrote: »

ross has a lot less public support on this issue then many think. plenty support the drivers, not because they agree with them fighting against cuts to overtime but because they see the bigger picture.

I would suggest that the "plenty" who support the drivers is a very small number.

At the start of the dispute, I would have been happy for the government to either give in to the union lobby (as usual) or not.

Given the selfish and unsanctioned actions of the strikers today, I will happily accept more disruption to my traveling plans if the state holds the line and hits these strikers where it hurts (their pockets), and gives others something to think about before doing anything similar in the future.

hullaballoo · 31-03-2017 05:08PM

Ross is playing a political stormer in fairness. He keeps saying he won't get involved etc. when in reality, he CAN'T get involved as he is legally unable to do so. Others have pointed out why. The commercial routes are incapable of State subvention and the Public Service routes are only capable of subsidy. BÉ is a company just like any other private operator and is subject to the same regulation. It is not a semi-State in the common understanding of the term. It is a DAC, which is one of the new names for your run of the mill private company.

As such, BÉ cannot simply be gifted State money. (As someone else has pointed out, there are anti-competition aspects too but tbh, I think this situation is more straight-forward because of the State's own rules about doling out exchequer funds. In no circumstance can they go to a commercial body.)

Also, the company directors i.e., management, can't capitulate either - they are on record saying that to do so would be reckless trading and would necessarily mean the company would become insolvent and go into liquidation. If the directors were to cause such a thing to happen, they could (and probably would) be personally liable to the company's creditors in the event of liquidation.

Even if the drivers desperately deserved better pay and conditions etc., the reality is you can't get blood from a stone. The company's finances are shambolic, mostly because the drivers have had things so well despite everyone else having their backs to the wall. They have been getting paid on average 9.5 hours per shift while only driving for 5.5. Wtaf.

It doesn't really matter where your sympathies lie or who you think deserves what - this entire strike is totally misguided and absolutely does not serve the drivers' interests.

PeadarCo · 31-03-2017 05:28PM

diarmconnolly wrote:

And then as company which provides the outdated bubble they profit from is going to the wall, rather than work to find some compromise which would likely still maintain an outcome better than they deserve, they are trying to blackmail the government and taxpayers into subsidising their status quo? Ridiculous.

The gamble the driver's are taking is that the government won't let Bus Eireann go to the wall and look alternative means for PSO services than the current set up. Its high stakes. But its a gamble they're prepared to take. There's probably also an element of looking long-term and the possibility of more Dublin bus routes being put out to tender. The only real losers from more private companies are unions harder to deal with more companies than one big one. The NTA set up for commercial routes seems to be a nice balance of competition and regulation.

john boye · 31-03-2017 05:32PM

Was talking to a couple of DB drivers in town just now and they said that BE staff have lost a lot of support within DB after this morning's carry-on.

jackofalltrades · 31-03-2017 05:34PM

Good to see that the government knows the prevailing public mood on this dispute.
Their fed up of being held to ransom by public sector unions and their unrealistic demands.
The line needs to be held on this issue.
Also private companies should be allow to tender for PSO routes in the future.
The days of the travelling public's concerns not being the top priority are over.

diarmconnolly · 31-03-2017 05:41PM

Serious question here but I apologise if the answers are obvious or clearly answered elsewhere. Can someone explain to me why certain routes in Dublin are being put out to tender and why as a country, it makes sense to have different companies competing but only in the populous, profitable areas?

Surely, if we are looking to put our bus services out to tender, it makes sense that the profitable routes would be bundled with the rural, more difficult routes?

Companies can apply for the Dublin City Centre routes, or the major city routes, but in order to be successful, they must commit to taking on a certain percentage of the less glamorous (although obviously still subsidised) routes around the country.

Surely a nationwide transport system is utterly impossible if we're separating the only areas in which enough money can be made to sustain it?

devnull · 31-03-2017 05:44PM

diarmconnolly wrote: »

Serious question here but I apologise if the answers are obvious or clearly answered elsewhere. Can someone explain to me why certain routes in Dublin are being put out to tender and why as a country, it makes sense to have different companies competing but only in the populous, profitable areas?

Surely, if we are looking to put our bus services out to tender, it makes sense that the profitable routes would be bundled with the rural, more difficult routes?

Companies can apply for the Dublin City Centre routes, or the major city routes, but in order to be successful, they must commit to taking on a certain percentage of the less glamorous (although obviously still subsidised) routes around the country.

Surely a nationwide transport system is utterly impossible if we're separating the only areas in which enough money can be made to sustain it?

The tender involves companies bidding to run the buses, the amount of money the route makes will be of no significance because it will be kept by the NTA.

trellheim · 31-03-2017 05:53PM

I have a feeling the arm will be chanced again in this Monday or something like. If I was DB and IE I'd be in with an injunction against "person or persons" immediately.

diarmconnolly · 31-03-2017 05:56PM

devnull wrote: »

The tender involves companies bidding to run the buses, the amount of money the route makes will be of no significance because it will be kept by the NTA.

But surely the best system would be one in which every route in the country was graded and bundled into packages with a mix of attractive and less attractive routes.

The companies bidding on these packages to avail of the profitable routes, would then take on responsibility for the rural routes.

We cannot have a situation where certain companies prosper from operating the profitable routes while another company is expected to take on responsibility for all of the rural ones. Not without expecting the taxpayer to pay more and more for it.

kingshankly · 31-03-2017 06:02PM

john boye wrote: »

Was talking to a couple of DB drivers in town just now and they said that BE staff have lost a lot of support within DB after this morning's carry-on.

Same with us train drivers my ballot vote next week has changed from support the be drivers now to not striking
Also to clarify all train drivers that didn't pass pickets this morning will not get paid while the be drivers will Get their €50 strike pay

thomasj · 31-03-2017 06:04PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I recall the last Bus Eireann strike, when it emerged that the union didn't have control over their members (a GoBe bus in Cork was effectively held hostage). I don't think that the union would allow that to happen again. Too damaging.

Theres always hardcore factions in a union and theres always a risk that the hardcore faction will go against the unions recommendations or the due process.

Jamie2k9 · 31-03-2017 06:05PM

Journal reporting it was NBRU members planned it on Whats App with some SIPTU members unhappy...

Hilly Bill · 31-03-2017 06:06PM

n97 mini wrote: »

It comes out of their annual leave so? If they get paid while not at work they're either sick (clearly not) or on a half day.

No annual leave just loose a days pay. No strike pay either.

AlmightyCushion · 31-03-2017 06:07PM

diarmconnolly wrote: »

But surely the best system would be one in which every route in the country was graded and bundled into packages with a mix of attractive and less attractive routes.

The companies bidding on these packages to avail of the profitable routes, would then take on responsibility for the rural routes.

We cannot have a situation where certain companies prosper from operating the profitable routes while another company is expected to take on responsibility for all of the rural ones. Not without expecting the taxpayer to pay more and more for it.

To the private operator all routes will be profitable. They get paid to run the route regardless of how many people are on each bus.

L1011 · 31-03-2017 06:07PM

diarmconnolly wrote: »

We cannot have a situation where certain companies prosper from operating the profitable routes while another company is expected to take on responsibility for all of the rural ones. Not without expecting the taxpayer to pay more and more for it.

We aren't going to

The NTA will pay the operator to run the route - fixed price
The NTA will take all the fares, travel pass subsidy etc
In many cases, the NTA will give you the buses to run the route with

It is irrelevant to the operator how popular/profitable the route is.

end of the road wrote: »

we don't. be must remain and tendering must be faught against as it brings nothing to the table in my view.

There is absolutely no way that BE would win a single route. Extremely high cost base so will not be competitive on cost and will lose on other factors due to such things as a strike-happy workforce.

DB would likely be competitive enough for their routes and possible even some BE ones (115/109 etc)

Hilly Bill · 31-03-2017 06:07PM

snickerpuss wrote: »

Surely if they went back to work at 10 they can't be docked a full day?

Then they loose the hours they missed.

lucernarian · 31-03-2017 06:08PM

bk wrote: »

I have a great deal of respect for what the unions of the early 1900's did for the ordinary worker and our nation.

They fought hard for a decent wage for a hard days work and improved conditions and safety standards. They also fought hard for the birth of our country and worked hard to build it to what it is today.

However I think those famous labour leaders would be horrified at what the modern union movement has become today.

Union bosses earning 100k+, representing mostly very well paid and on very good conditions mostly semi-state employees, while the common man on the street gets little or no representation and worst of all holding the whole country to ransom for their unjust demands!

And on top of that the way they have been insulting and threatening our democratically elected representatives in government!

It is all pretty sickening and I believe the unions leaders of the past would be simply appalled at it all and would say that it has nothing to do with the proud labour and union movements of the past.

Sorry to quote a big message but +1 to this, well said bk

PeadarCo · 31-03-2017 06:10PM

diarmconnolly wrote:

We cannot have a situation where certain companies prosper from operating the profitable routes while another company is expected to take on responsibility for all of the rural ones. Not without expecting the taxpayer to pay more and more for it.

I don't think you understand of the PSO tender. NTA says they want a bus route between a b & c locations at x y & z times. A tender is put out. Companies come back with prices. The profit they make is between the cost of the tender and what the NTA pays them to run the route. The money paid by the customer to the drivers goes to the NTA.

Companies who bid for the tenders are competing with companies within the same industry. You'd expect profit margins to be within a fairly tight range regardless of the cost of the route to run assuming open competition. If someone can make offer a lower price because of lower internal costs they'll win the tender all things being equal. There's serious incentive to keep costs low as that impacts the lowest price a company can offer the NTA. Currently bus Eireann doesn't have huge incentives to keep costs low which means more money is required to subsidise PSO.

Unions oppose it because payroll is a key cost competent. But it is better from a taxpayer point of view. As others have pointed out its a fairly standard process throughout Europe.

devnull · 31-03-2017 06:12PM

diarmconnolly wrote: »

The companies bidding on these packages to avail of the profitable routes, would then take on responsibility for the rural routes.

We cannot have a situation where certain companies prosper from operating the profitable routes while another company is expected to take on responsibility for all of the rural ones. Not without expecting the taxpayer to pay more and more for it.

How profitable the route is will make no difference under the system the NTA are proposing because none of the fare revenue goes to the operator

devnull · 31-03-2017 06:23PM

School bus drivers being balloted:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0331/864017-bus-eireann-dispute/

SIPTU is to ballot members employed as Bus Éireann school bus drivers on industrial action due to the threat to their jobs resulting from the wider crisis in the company.

In a statement this afternoon, SIPTU's Willie Noone said the SIPTU National School Bus Drivers Committee decided to begin the process of balloting its members in sympathy and support of their colleagues in Bus Éireann.

"Although they are employees of Bus Éireann these workers have to date not been party to the ongoing dispute at the company.

"However, it is now known that their livelihoods will also be adversely affected in the circumstances that their employer is not able to continue trading.

"This leaves our members with no other option but to consider industrial action to protect their jobs and the services they provide."

ED E · 31-03-2017 06:26PM

devnull wrote: »

School bus drivers being balloted:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0331/864017-bus-eireann-dispute/

An important side note to this is lots of the school routes are tendered out. The operators are not being paid currently as BE offices are closed. This will mean they'll drop out of action soon anyways unless the BE clerks go back to work.

Jamie2k9 · 31-03-2017 06:32PM

devnull wrote: »

School bus drivers being balloted:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0331/864017-bus-eireann-dispute/

SIPTU is to ballot members employed as Bus Éireann school bus drivers on industrial action due to the threat to their jobs resulting from the wider crisis in the company.

In a statement this afternoon, SIPTU's Willie Noone said the SIPTU National School Bus Drivers Committee decided to begin the process of balloting its members in sympathy and support of their colleagues in Bus Éireann.

"Although they are employees of Bus Éireann these workers have to date not been party to the ongoing dispute at the company.

"However, it is now known that their livelihoods will also be adversely affected in the circumstances that their employer is not able to continue trading.

"This leaves our members with no other option but to consider industrial action to protect their jobs and the services they provide."

You think BE will exist on 21 April, both sides have admitted today talkes are needed.

Brendan Bendar · 31-03-2017 06:32PM

lucernarian wrote: »

Sorry to quote a big message but +1 to this, well said bk

+ 100

BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

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