BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

nosilver · 31-03-2017 10:42AM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If anyone refuses to cross an illegal picket by a different company then it's their own fault for not getting paid.

The problem is the bullies - you cross a picket and expect the uneducated low lifes in a company who believe every word froma union mouth, to make your life hell.

Even DB management accepted that their staff were in a very difficult position.

Remember in archaic dinosaur companies like this there are those who make enormous effort to scam anythig a nd everything and to make themselves a nuisance and they are very very difficult to dicipline.

pc7 · 31-03-2017 10:42AM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If anyone refuses to cross an illegal picket by a different company then it's their own fault for not getting paid.

Very very very difficult in a unionised organisation to cross a picket even if illegal. I sadly work in such a place and they still talk about xxx who crossed a picket 10 years ago!

snickerpuss · 31-03-2017 10:44AM

nosilver wrote: »

Basic pay won;t be affected, yes, overtime will be affected, but the three biggest issues that the unions simply will not discuss are

1. The massive number of "spare" drivers sitting on their arses everyday and getting paid.
.

Do people really not think it makes sense to have spare drivers for buses and trains in case of people being out sick, accidents, delays etc? I find this point a bizarre one to be annoyed about. If they had no cover people would be annoyed about that too.

howiya · 31-03-2017 10:46AM

magentis wrote: »

So a massive subvention cut will have no effect on operating cost?Do the NTA pay for maintaining said vehicles along with fuel?

They didn't cut subvention for the fun of it. We pay for services provided by BE, Irish Rail, Dublin Bus etc.

Due to the amount of people not commuting during the crash services were cut. As a result the operators don't get paid for these services that they were no longer providing. That is why subvention was cut.

Now that we need these operators to provide additional services subvention is increasing again

howiya · 31-03-2017 10:50AM

snickerpuss wrote: »

Do people really not think it makes sense to have spare drivers for buses and trains in case of people being out sick, accidents, delays etc? I find this point a bizarre one to be annoyed about. If they had no cover people would be annoyed about that too.

The reason it's an issue is the high number of sick days in the organisation. Its about changing the culture rather than not wanting to be prepared for the unexpected.

I've seen it mentioned on here that the BE drivers still get their overtime even if they're out sick. Not sure that's true but if it is the case then there's zero incentive to go to work.

Bass Reeves · 31-03-2017 10:50AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Again, these alternative systems and models are not my work. Unfortunately I have little or no knowledge on our credit union and post office 'banking' systems but I suspect they are different to the public banking systems in which I'm in favour of mainly the German sparkasse and the bank of north Dakota. I suspect these are different models and systems to our own institutions.

So to summerize above you are aware of alternative systems but un aware of how they work. And all you can state is that you suspect that models in Dakota and Germany are different.

You still have not answreed my question about about what level of current budget is sustainable and where should it be spend

Riskymove wrote: »

wasn't there a long term strike on southern trains recently

there have also been strikes on tube and buses over recent times

nowhere is perfect

Yes but in the case of these strikes the vast majority of commuters have other options and strikers and companies have to sort out issues themselves. No whinging to the minster to get involved

L1011 wrote: »

Pickets lifted and drivers from other group companies clearly not in support on here... that much vaunted "Solidarity" doesn't seem to be very, well, solid.

I imagine that workers in DB and IE rang unions headquarters and vented there fury. As well they may have treatened to cross pickets unless they were removed.

I have heard a rumour that SIPTU have carried had a public survey carried out about this strike.

51% were against the strike and angry with the workers
20% supported the workers
29% had No opinion

The no opinion section may well be added to the 51% now. What are the odds negotiation begin again Monday like the LUAS strike the workers hand is weakening all the time

Nekarsulm · 31-03-2017 10:54AM

snickerpuss wrote: »

Do people really not think it makes sense to have spare drivers for buses and trains in case of people being out sick, accidents, delays etc? I find this point a bizarre one to be annoyed about. If they had no cover people would be annoyed about that too.

That's a circular argument.
If BE staff were not running at 4X the rate of "sick days" as the rest of the countries workers, "spare" driver numbers could be cut by 75%

Heisenberg1 · 31-03-2017 10:56AM

devnull wrote: »

How is it that in Glasgow there can be over 900 buses and well over 95% of those routes be run commercially and companies still buy their own buses every year and pay commercial rates for insurance, yet in Dublin, every single route is deemed as being nonviable and the company needs state insurance and free buses?

Monthly and yearly tickets are much more heavily discounted in the UK than they are in the UK, in Glasgow you can get a month ticket for £44, 10 week ticket for £94.00 within the city or if within the whole region you can get a month ticket for £57 and a 10 week ticket for £130. These are considerably cheaper.

How can an operator who pays to run a fully commercial network and all of it's own buses also have lower fares? Is it because that they have a proper control on costs?

In 2015 between Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann they had over 200 million passenger journeys between them, They received over €200million in subvention and capital grants from the NTA which is €1per journey.

In Scotland that year there was 414million bus journeys taken, transport of Scotland subvented said services to the tune of £2.6 BILLION! which is over £6 per passenger journey taken.

That is how they can offer cheaper fares they are have a much higher subventions per journey taken than over here.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-38682345

Bass Reeves · 31-03-2017 10:58AM

snickerpuss wrote: »

Do people really not think it makes sense to have spare drivers for buses and trains in case of people being out sick, accidents, delays etc? I find this point a bizarre one to be annoyed about. If they had no cover people would be annoyed about that too.

Private operators operate in the same industry. There ratio of drivers to buses is less than 50% of BE it actually at around 33%. They do not have the OT costs that BE have either. DB operates with a ratio of about 60% to BE. In most industry's if you have a roster issue ypou have eith staff on call or a back up list that you can call in.

The issue in BE is that drivers call in sick and are paid rostered OT even if not turning up for work. So huge incentive to stay at home for a duvet day and to watch DR Phil to find an excuse for the next duvet day

howiya · 31-03-2017 10:59AM

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

In 2015 between Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann they had over 200 million passenger journeys between them, They received over €200million in subvention and capital grants from the NTA which is €1per journey.

In Scotland that year there was 414million bus journeys taken, transport of Scotland subvented said services to the tune of £2.6 BILLION! which is over £6 per passenger journey taken.

That is how they can offer cheaper fares they are have a much higher subventions per journey taken than over here.

That's completely untrue

54and56 · 31-03-2017 11:00AM

kidneyfan wrote: »

Ross voted for his own pay rise.

and that's relevant because??

CosmicJay · 31-03-2017 11:00AM

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

In 2015 between Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann they had over 200 million passenger journeys between them, They received over €200million in subvention and capital grants from the NTA which is €1per journey.

In Scotland that year there was 414million bus journeys taken, transport of Scotland subvented said services to the tune of £2.6 BILLION! which is over £6 per passenger journey taken.

That is how they can offer cheaper fares they are have a much higher subventions per journey taken than over here.

In 2015 Transport Scotland only gave 2.2 billion to all public transport in the whole of Scotland.

Edit: Including roads.

Heisenberg1 · 31-03-2017 11:03AM

howiya wrote: »

That's completely untrue

I have added a link at the Bolton of my post. Have a read.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-38682345

Heisenberg1 · 31-03-2017 11:04AM

CosmicJay wrote: »

In 2015 Transport Scotland only gave 2.2 billion to all public transport in the whole of Scotland.

Edit: Including roads.

From the report...

Those companies were not obliged to run buses on routes unless they're profitable. Scotland's bus services are subsided to the tune of £2.6bn a year, but a company's bottom line rules. When social need meets commercial reality, there's usually only one winner.

n97 mini · 31-03-2017 11:06AM

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

In 2015 between Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann they had over 200 million passenger journeys between them, They received over €200million in subvention and capital grants from the NTA which is €1per journey.

In Scotland that year there was 414million bus journeys taken, transport of Scotland subvented said services to the tune of £2.6 BILLION! which is over £6 per passenger journey taken.

That is how they can offer cheaper fares they are have a much higher subventions per journey taken than over here.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-38682345

£2.6 billion to buses sounds wrong. You'd buy everyone their own bus at that rate.

This article says the bus subsidy is £66.5 million.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/should-scotland-s-bus-services-be-regulated-1-3933148

howiya · 31-03-2017 11:08AM

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

I have added a link at the Bolton of my post. Have a read.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-38682345

A badly researched article doesn't make it any less untrue. Annual subsidy in Scotland is £66.5million

blackwhite · 31-03-2017 11:09AM

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

From the report...

Those companies were not obliged to run buses on routes unless they're profitable. Scotland's bus services are subsided to the tune of £2.6bn a year, but a company's bottom line rules. When social need meets commercial reality, there's usually only one winner.

Looks like BBC made a bit of an error in their numbers.

Not £2.6bn per year; but £2.6bn since 2006. So closer to an average of €260bn per year.

Much more detailed analysis of the numbers here.

https://www.sundaypost.com/news/scottish-news/fears-scotlands-bus-services-investigation-reveals-fifth-routes-axed-last-decade/

blackwhite · 31-03-2017 11:13AM

blackwhite wrote: »

Looks like BBC made a bit of an error in their numbers.

Not £2.6bn per year; but £2.6bn since 2006. So closer to an average of €260bn per year.

Much more detailed analysis of the numbers here.

https://www.sundaypost.com/news/scottish-news/fears-scotlands-bus-services-investigation-reveals-fifth-routes-axed-last-decade/

And some actual Govt stats to back up the level of subsidy

http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/statistics/j357783-05.htm

£291m of Govt support in 2014/15

425m bus journeys.

So on average approx £0.68 per journey.

After the FX adjustment, that's still less than the €1 per journey that BE is subsidised by.

devnull · 31-03-2017 11:13AM

blackwhite wrote: »

Looks like BBC made a bit of an error in their numbers.

That is one of the biggest understatements on this thread!

trellheim · 31-03-2017 11:14AM

I'd just like to add having closely monitored the recent strikes it is an absolute touchstone for the strikers that they care not a toss about those they inconvenience. This is about nothing less than self-interest.

That said, that's a union's role - but I'd have enjoyed seeing NBRU etc in front of the high court this morning to defend why they shouldn't be injuncted.

Todays actions clearly showed an organised hand at work ; is there some other unions getting dues here we don't know about , Shop stewards are always alive to another union trying to knock in, ILDA was a case in point ; We haven't seen any of that here so I can only conclude either

NBRU are clueless and didn't know other organised forces were acting behind their backs

NBRU and the unions at least facilitated if not encouraged this

NBRU if they DID know about it, had a clear responsibility a couple of days ago to inform RTE that a wildcat was likely at 0600 this morning.

I can't believe NBRU were unaware and as a responsible partner had a duty to recommend against this and let the travelling people know and plan.

I'm willing to be convinced with facts and logic that NBRU are blameless in all this

devnull · 31-03-2017 11:14AM

blackwhite wrote: »

And some actual Govt stats to back up the level of subsidy

http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/statistics/j357783-05.htm

£291m of Govt support in 2014/15

425m bus journeys.

So on average approx £0.68 per journey.

After the FX adjustment, that's still less than the €1 per journey that BE is subsidised by.

And since Aberdeen was mentioned, some prices for comparison:
https://www.firstgroup.com/aberdeen/tickets/ticket-prices

Heisenberg1 · 31-03-2017 11:14AM

n97 mini wrote: »

£2.6 billion to buses sounds wrong. You'd buy everyone their own bus at that rate.

This article says the bus subsidy is £66.5 million.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/should-scotland-s-bus-services-be-regulated-1-3933148

It's doesn't sound right in that article either is they have received £2.6 billion since 07 that works out around £260 million a year they have received.

devnull · 31-03-2017 11:15AM

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

It's doesn't sound right in that article either is they have received £2.6 billion since 07 that works out around £260 million a year they have received.

Some actual data from the horses mouth:
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/statistics/j357783-05.htm

devnull · 31-03-2017 11:16AM

trellheim wrote: »

I'd just like to add having closely monitored the recent strikes it is an absolute touchstone for the strikers that they care not a toss about those they inconvenience. This is about nothing less than self-interest.

That said, that's a union's role - but I'd have enjoyed seeing NBRU etc in front of the high court this morning to defend why they shouldn't be injuncted.

Todays actions clearly showed an organised hand at work ; is there some other unions getting dues here we don't know about , Shop stewards are always alive to another union trying to knock in, ILDA was a case in point ; We haven't seen any of that here so I can only conclude either

NBRU and the unions at least facilitated if not encouraged this

NBRU if they DID know about it, had a clear responsibility a couple of days ago to inform RTE that a wildcat was likely at 0600 this morning.

I can't believe NBRU were unaware and as a responsible partner had a duty to recommend against this and let the travelling people know and plan.

They were in front of the court? Source?

trellheim · 31-03-2017 11:18AM

They weren't AFAIK. I was just saying I'd have enjoyed seeing it. paid good money in fact.

howiya · 31-03-2017 11:19AM

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

It's doesn't sound right in that article either is they have received £2.6 billion since 07 that works out around £260 million a year they have received.

Free travel payments as well or concessionary fares as they call it in Scotland

There were 414 million local bus journeys in Scotland during 2014-15, a fall of 46 million from 2004-05. Bus fares in Scotland increased by 13.5% above inflation between 2005 and 2015. Local authorities spent £57 million on subsidising socially necessary bus services during 2014-15. The Scottish Government spent £189 million on concessionary fares during 2014-15.

http://www.parliament.scot/ResearchBriefingsAndFactsheets/S5/SB_16-55_Transport_in_Scotland.pdf

Heisenberg1 · 31-03-2017 11:19AM

devnull wrote: »

Some actual data from the horses mouth:
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/statistics/j357783-05.htm

Well that's the last time I trust the BBC.

blackwhite · 31-03-2017 11:23AM

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

Well that's the last time I trust the BBC.

BBC posting stats that appear to support huge state funding for services?

Well I never

n97 mini · 31-03-2017 11:24AM

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

Well that's the last time I trust the BBC.

Maybe Trump was right about the BBC and #fakenews

Collie D · 31-03-2017 11:26AM

n97 mini wrote: »

Maybe Trump was right about the BBC and #fakenews

We're all emotional but let's not get carried away

BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

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