BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

bk · 30-03-2017 10:26PM

end of the road wrote: »

tendering is the NTA'S problem and it's their job or the operator's job to provide facilities. not the job of BE to give up theirs unless they wish to do so.

Funny then that the NTA have supplied all of BE's and DB's PSO buses and coaches for the past 5 years or more.

Also I'll point out that BE's bus stations and depots were originally bought for them by the tax payer. And since BE is 100% owned by the government, that means they also own all BE property and can decide to transfer it to the NTA too if they so wish.

hmmm · 30-03-2017 10:30PM

bk wrote: »

Funny then that the NTA have supplied all of BE's and DB's PSO buses and coaches for the past 5 years or more.

Also I'll point out that BE's bus stations and depots were originally bought for them by the tax payer. And since BE is 100% owned by the government, that means they also own all BE property and can decide to transfer it to the NTA too if they so wish.

Maybe it should be a condition on any PSO route that the NTA supplies the buses, and that they revert to the NTA in the event of a strike. The workers are free to withdraw their labour, while the NTA gets alternative providers to provide the PSO service. The alternative would be that those who are reliant on the PSO route become pawns in any industrial dispute, and that surely is not something we should be allowing?

bk · 30-03-2017 10:33PM

If I'm not mistaken, all property and other fixed assets used by DB/BE/IR is actually owned by CIE and is controlled and managed by the property arm.

That is why BE actually has so little fixed assets. They don't own "their" bus stations and depots and they don't own most of their buses (NTA do).

Anyway, BE is 100% owned by CIE, who in turn is 100% owned by the government, so in reality the government can do whatever they please with this property.

murphaph · 30-03-2017 10:38PM

end of the road wrote: »

not his job. if bus eireann want to sell busses and buildings they will do of their own accord.

tendering is the NTA'S problem and it's their job or the operator's job to provide facilities. not the job of BE to give up theirs unless they wish to do so.

Are you for real?

BE is a semi state. If the minister for TRANSPORT directs them to divest themselves of assets they will do so. BE management does not get to decide in this as it is a SEMI-STATE.

All "their" assets belong to us. If we (through our elected government) wish for these assets to be owned by the NTA (as they should be) then that is what will happen.

murphaph · 30-03-2017 10:42PM

hmmm wrote: »

Maybe it should be a condition on any PSO route that the NTA supplies the buses, and that they revert to the NTA in the event of a strike. The workers are free to withdraw their labour, while the NTA gets alternative providers to provide the PSO service. The alternative would be that those who are reliant on the PSO route become pawns in any industrial dispute, and that surely is not something we should be allowing?

Personally I don't think the NTA should own any buses in the future. If a private operator has industrial relations problems the NTA should simply be contractually allowed to replace the operator with another.

devnull · 30-03-2017 11:00PM

I bet customers agree with this:
https://twitter.com/iltawards/status/847561049591119872

I see that the unions are also now saying that there is a volcano waiting to erupt.

Yourself isit · 30-03-2017 11:03PM

murphaph wrote: »

Personally I don't think the NTA should own any buses in the future. If a private operator has industrial relations problems the NTA should simply be contractually allowed to replace the operator with another.

To think you are all operating on the idea that operators spring up like March daffodils. Because free market.

I would kinda wish privatisation on Irish people just so it will be evident how little is gained (as the experience in the UK shows) but then I doubt if most of the union bashers on this thread ever use BE.

devnull · 30-03-2017 11:10PM

Yourself isit wrote: »

I would kinda wish privatisation on Irish people just so it will be evident how little is gained (as the experience in the UK shows) but then I doubt if most of the union bashers on this thread ever use BE.

Nobody has proposed the UK system here of de-regulation, but even there they can somehow manage to run 95% of city buses in a city on a commercial basis and provide their own buses and have lower monthly and yearly fares whereas in Dublin we can't run a single city bus commercially.

Mebuntu · 30-03-2017 11:10PM

I bet customers agree with this:
https://twitter.com/iltawards/status/847561049591119872

I take it that this is an example of the "fake news" that people are talking about nowadays

Bass Reeves · 30-03-2017 11:26PM

Yourself isit wrote: »

To think you are all operating on the idea that operators spring up like March daffodils. Because free market.

I would kinda wish privatisation on Irish people just so it will be evident how little is gained (as the experience in the UK shows) but then I doubt if most of the union bashers on this thread ever use BE.

In Ireland we have been mugged by the transport unions/workers for the last thirty plus years. As taxpayers we are seen as an piggy bank to be raided continually while we receive poorer and poorer services. If you look outside BE and DB there are loads of operators running other services such as the school bus service, services to factory where shifts change and BE are incapable of providing that service. Like I posted earlier in general public transport is ran for the workers benefit as opposed to benefit Joe Public.

We were spun the same yarn about allowing competitor Aer Lingus were we lucky that Ryanair was allowed to prosper. In the UK origination was unregulated this has not happened in Ireland and we see the benefit with private bus operators on the InterCity route's

Stephen15 · 30-03-2017 11:41PM

murphaph wrote: »

Personally I don't think the NTA should own any buses in the future. If a private operator has industrial relations problems the NTA should simply be contractually allowed to replace the operator with another.

People are forgetting about M&A Coaches which operates on a few routes on an NTA contract in the Laois area providing it's own buses. Which look un-practical towards publice transport. The buses are just your standard private hire coaches are not practical towards carrying fare paying passengers which they lack things which your standard Bus Eireann or Dublin bus or a Dublin Coach or Aircoach would have such LED route displays.

While your point may be valid but only if buses had meeto some basic requirements let's not cram passengers onto a worn out old minibus with more passenger facilities.

end of the road · 30-03-2017 11:45PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

While thuggery !Ight be an issue within the pale and in larger urban area's I think that people from rural area's would not put up with such thuggery if a small local family run business started forum such a service. I expect that if such services were started from rural settings even into Dublin they be very hard for unions to prevent especially if no subsidy was involved. Secondary picketing is illegal remember so a few arrests by gardai and injunctions and it be all over bar the weeping and nashing of teeth.

injunctions and arrests would be unlikely to make any difference, especially as it wouldn't be just the unions involved but those against austerity/water charges and much much more who arrests and courts didn't make one bit of difference against. so it wouldn't be over until it is over i'd imagine.

murphaph wrote: »

Are you for real?

BE is a semi state. If the minister for TRANSPORT directs them to divest themselves of assets they will do so. BE management does not get to decide in this as it is a SEMI-STATE.

All "their" assets belong to us. If we (through our elected government) wish for these assets to be owned by the NTA (as they should be) then that is what will happen.

the facilities are for those companies and should remain with them for as long as those companies exist.

Stephen15 · 30-03-2017 11:50PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

In Ireland we have been mugged by the transport unions/workers for the last thirty plus years. As taxpayers we are seen as an piggy bank to be raided continually while we receive poorer and poorer services. If you look outside BE and DB there are loads of operators running other services such as the school bus service, services to factory where shifts change and BE are incapable of providing that service. Like I posted earlier in general public transport is ran for the workers benefit as opposed to benefit Joe Public.

I reckon Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann both have a place along with private operators someone needs to operate city services and other routes which privates may unsuited like routes connecting regional centres with Ruralish areas I say Ruralish as Bus Eireann only really connect towns with other towns aswell as other towns and villages along the way there are quite a lot of areas in the country which are not at all connected by any form of pt.

bk · 31-03-2017 12:26AM

murphaph wrote: »

Personally I don't think the NTA should own any buses in the future. If a private operator has industrial relations problems the NTA should simply be contractually allowed to replace the operator with another.

I assume the NTA have taken this approach (at the direction of DoT and the Minister) as a way to protect against DB/BE going bankrupt or a long term strike.

It gives the government a powerful position to say, if DB/BE can't or won't operate the service they are contracted to operate. Then we will take our buses and depots back and give them to another operator to run the service.

It would allow the government to get a replacement service up and running, if they could offer another operator buses, stations and depots ready to go. Rather then expecting another operator to go order 1000's of new buses, which would likely take years to replace.

BTW note that I've been saying operators, not private companies. For instance if BE did go bust, it wouldn't be unimaginable for the government to hand over some of the BE buses to Dublin Bus to operate Dublin region commuter services and maybe even regional city services. DB would be well placed to take on at least some of the responsibility of a failed BE.

jimmycrackcorm · 31-03-2017 12:42AM

end of the road wrote: »

it's not the job of the NTA to get involved in fueling the fire.

It's their job to provide the public service via the PSO

end of the road wrote: »

not his job. if bus eireann want to sell busses and buildings they will do of their own accord.

Which is why I suggested that the NTA buy, not sell, them. BE need money, so give them the money, but for money given, you generally need to get something in return

tendering is the NTA'S problem and it's their job or the operator's job to provide facilities. not the job of BE to give up theirs unless they wish to do so.

When the coffers are empty, there's nothing left but to sell the family silver...

bk · 31-03-2017 12:47AM

Stephen15 wrote: »

The buses are just your standard private hire coaches are not practical towards carrying fare paying passengers which they lack things which your standard Bus Eireann or Dublin bus or a Dublin Coach or Aircoach would have such LED route displays.

While your point may be valid but only if buses had meeto some basic requirements let's not cram passengers onto a worn out old minibus with more passenger facilities.

At least half of BE's buses are actually owned by the NTA. The NTA can take them back any time they like and hand them offer to other operators to operate the same routes if they like.

I'm not sure what would happen for the rest of the buses that BE directly own if they were to go into liquidation, given that the government 100% owns BE.

Either they would return directly to the government or the NTA would probably buy them for a song from the liquidator. Alternatively the other comapnies who are likely bid on these new PSO contracts would buy them from the liquidators.

Overall, the point is that there should be a massive change in the style of buses and coaches used on the majority of routes.

end of the road wrote: »

the facilities are for those companies and should remain with them for as long as those companies exist.

The facilities are there to be used to delivery public transport to the people of Ireland. If they aren't being used to do that, then clearly their usage (but not ownership) should be transferred to whichever operator is delivering this service.

Let me make this very clear, the facilities that DB/BE/IR use have NEVER been owned by them, ownership of those properties has always lied in the property arm of CIE. DB/BE/IR have simply been allowed to make use of this property. CIE is 100% owned by the government. Thus the government as representatives of the people of Ireland have the right to do whatever they like with the property they own.

Stephen15 wrote: »

I reckon Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann both have a place along with private operators someone needs to operate city services and other routes which privates may unsuited like routes connecting regional centres with Ruralish areas I say Ruralish as Bus Eireann only really connect towns with other towns aswell as other towns and villages along the way there are quite a lot of areas in the country which are not at all connected by any form of pt.

You mean like the routes in the West of Donegal, the most rural part of Europe, which even BE with all their subsidies, deems to be too small to deliver a service too. While in fact 4 private bus companies offer pretty excellent services to this region with no subsidy from the government beyond the free travel pass payments. Take a read here:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/bus-feda-owner-rejects-bus-%C3%A9ireann-s-accusations-1.2949493

The truth is BE don't deliver a particularly good service to rural Ireland. BE are a Dublin based organisation that in reality are very focused on cherry picking the most profitable routes, mostly the commuter routes into Dublin City from the surrounding region.

Once you get out of the greater Dublin region and surrounding counties. Their service quickly becomes very rubbish. Being from Cork I can tell you all about how terrible the Cork based BE services are.

BTW there is also no reason why city bus services in the likes of Cork, etc. couldn't be operated by Dublin Bus or private companies as they normally are in the UK (see London Bus which is operated by about a dozen different private companies).

jimmycrackcorm · 31-03-2017 01:03AM

Please stop referring to it as a rogue strike. It's clearly not, nor is it illegal. I don't agree with the strike, I argue against it but absolutely agree with workers being able to go on strike whether I feel they are right or wrong. Its a fundamental democratic right.

I do find the references to blueshirts amusing as probably most of the population haven't a clue what it refers to.

What does concern me is whether or not the government will do the right thing or not. Often as not a government sells out short term gain only to chive long term pain.

What I think is an interesting aspect is to compare the Garda pay dispute to this. In both cases the public was being held to ransom. However I don't think there was the same level of discord in the public mind about their approach. Mostly the thought was of the ramifications of not being able get hold of a Garda compared to having to ask someone for a lift.

Some Gardai may have being getting proportionally as much overtime as bus drivers but I doubt if people consider we aren't getting value for money from them ( despite the current obvious incompetence in count breath check straws).

But I digress, no new legislation is needed, we aren't Turkey or Russia.

BuilderPlumber · 31-03-2017 01:09AM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Please stop referring to it as a rogue strike. It's clearly not, nor is it illegal. I don't agree with the strike, I argue against it but absolutely agree with workers being able to go on strike whether I feel they are right or wrong. Its a fundamental democratic right.

I do find the references to blueshirts amusing as probably most of the population haven't a clue what it refers to.

What does concern me is whether or not the government will do the right thing or not. Often as not a government sells out short term gain only to chive long term pain.

What I think is an interesting aspect is to compare the Garda pay dispute to this. In both cases the public was being held to ransom. However I don't think there was the same level of discord in the public mind about their approach. Mostly the thought was of the ramifications of not being able get hold of a Garda compared to having to ask someone for a lift.

Some Gardai may have being getting proportionally as much overtime as bus drivers but I doubt if people consider we aren't getting value for money from them ( despite the current obvious incompetence in count breath check straws).

But I digress, no new legislation is needed, we aren't Turkey or Russia.

I call a spade a spade. It is a rogue strike because it is abuse of our legal system by hardliners who want to try and disrupt the state as much as possible. It is legal because our laws are too soft on hardline disruptors who then milk this for all it is worth. And who do not care about the public and who have not one decent bone in their body. We are not Turkey or Russia but sometimes I wish we were. Whatever way, the public and the greater good needs to be protected in some way from carry on like this since last Friday. Last bleddy Friday for gods sake!! One way or another, this is unacceptable that a small group of hardliners can get away with causing disruption to a large group of people. Kenny is not Putin or Erdogan but he has failed the people by allowing this disruption to go on. Deal with it whatever way (personally, I'd like to see O'Leary and co face criminal charges of disrupting the public and their actions to be made illegal under emergency legislation to outlaw rogue industrial action) but end the blasted thing tomorrow.

No one is arguing against workers' rights to strike. But the strike should be of a nature that affects the party they are in dispute with and should not inconvenience the people to such a degree as this thing. The people have a democratic right to get from point A to point B and to be happy and not depressed. A group of hardliners hijacking an entire country and trying to extort it by deliberately imposing an extremist rogue industrial action is no one's idea of democracy. The opposite actually.

Graham · 31-03-2017 01:13AM

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

It is a rogue strike because it is abuse of our legal system

Nope

I don't agree with the current strike but it is quite legal.

BuilderPlumber · 31-03-2017 01:16AM

Graham wrote: »

Nope

I don't agree with the current strike but it is quite legal.

Sadly, it is legal. Ireland has a poor legislation when it comes to dealing with rogue industrial action and the hardliners know this and milk it for what it is worth. This thing should never be legal in any proper country that values its citizens and tourists.

Graham · 31-03-2017 01:20AM

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Sadly, it is legal. Ireland has a poor legislation when it comes to dealing with rogue industrial action

If it's legal, it's not rogue.

Graham · 31-03-2017 01:29AM

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Something legal does not have to be good.

But something is not automatically rogue because it is not good.

You do your points no favours by labelling the industrial action something which it is not.

Anyways, back to the ill-considered yet legal industrial action....

howiya · 31-03-2017 01:30AM

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

I call a spade a spade. It is a rogue strike because it is abuse of our legal system by hardliners who want to try and disrupt the state as much as possible. It is legal because our laws are too soft on hardline disruptors who then milk this for all it is worth. And who do not care about the public and who have not one decent bone in their body. We are not Turkey or Russia but sometimes I wish we were. Whatever way, the public and the greater good needs to be protected in some way from carry on like this since last Friday. Last bleddy Friday for gods sake!! One way or another, this is unacceptable that a small group of hardliners can get away with causing disruption to a large group of people. Kenny is not Putin or Erdogan but he has failed the people by allowing this disruption to go on. Deal with it whatever way (personally, I'd like to see O'Leary and co face criminal charges of disrupting the public and their actions to be made illegal under emergency legislation to outlaw rogue industrial action) but end the blasted thing tomorrow.

It's not a rogue strike. Perfectly legal whether you disagree with it or not. Nor is it disrupting the State as much as possible. 110,000 thousand people affected. The narrative that the unions and some on here are posting that rural Ireland is paralysed is nonsense. You're not on your own in wishing that it was over but I think you're really overreacting

BuilderPlumber · 31-03-2017 01:32AM

Graham wrote: »

But something is not automatically rogue because it is not good.

You do your points no favours by labelling the industrial action something which it is not.

Anyways, back to the ill-considered yet legal industrial action....

Disrupting the public, no attempt to offer goodwill, going on for over a week. What else can one call this only rogue behaviour by an uncaring selfish organisation whose fanatic republican anarchist views are more important to them than anything else. I label this thing something it VERY MUCH IS. It is not good. It is very bad. It is rogue. It is a criminal act. But sadly it is legal (under Irish 'law').

BuilderPlumber · 31-03-2017 01:37AM

howiya wrote: »

It's not a rogue strike. Perfectly legal whether you disagree with it or not. Nor is it disrupting the State as much as possible. 110,000 thousand people affected. The narrative that the unions and some on here are posting that rural Ireland is paralysed is nonsense. You're not on your own in wishing that it was over but I think you're really overreacting

Legal sadly it is and it is rogue because those who organise it do not care who they hurt. 110000 people is a lot of people. And that's only those directly affected. There's much more. That includes BE employees too and includes other bus travellers who will go to other services and stay with them because of this! That such carry on (instigated by dissident republican/anarchist sympathisers) is legal is worrying. Curbs are needed on this type of abusive industrial action. It is a form of bullying and extortion and the Irish state is happy to allow it is wrong. Any old hardline anarchist crank can abuse this and they will. An example needs to be made of this shower to lay a marker down to state the Irish Republic does not tolerate this type of OTT industrial action.

Unions and protesters are part of democracy but so too are public services. When unions and protesters go overboard and milk things and go too hardline, then the public needs to be protected. While not a lover of the recent governments, I found actions like the water protests and their fallout going so extreme that Joan Burton's car was surrounded and she was trapped by a mob as unacceptable. That is not far removed from terrorists. These are the types that hijack the unions and protests and turn often worthy causes into excuses for fanatics to impose anarchy. This strike has gone too far and the next rogue strike could go further again and be a violent one. Unless we set markers to curb extremism, extremism will only become more and more extreme because we allow it to be!!

howiya · 31-03-2017 02:06AM

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

That includes BE employees too and includes other bus travellers who will go to other services and stay with them because of this! That such carry on (instigated by dissident republican/anarchist sympathisers) is legal is worrying.

What's worrying about bus users using Aircoach (for example) in the absence of a BE service?

jimmycrackcorm · 31-03-2017 02:42AM

howiya wrote: »

It's not a rogue strike.

I was in agreement until I decided to look up the dictionary definition of a rogue:

behaving in ways that are not expected or not normal, often in a way that causes damage:
Being a union they behave the way we expect, yet cause damage. Not all the conditions are fulfilled for this definition...

A person whose behaviour one disapproves of but who is nonetheless likeable or attractive.
‘Cenzo, you old rogue!’
Our beloved EOTR!

a rogue elephant or other animal of similar disposition.
SIPTU trampling on commuter rights like an angry elephant??

no longer obedient, belonging, or accepted and hence not controllable or answerable; renegade:

Well there's the correct answer.

thomasj · 31-03-2017 05:45AM

What's going on with Irish rail? Did something happen overnight? Irish rail saying they cannot guarantee intercity or DART/commuter today ?

highdef · 31-03-2017 06:12AM

Yup, looks like the trains are suddenly going AWOL!!!

05.15hrs Friday 31st March

Iarnród Éireann advises customers that due to secondary picketing associated with the Bus Éireann dispute at a number of locations, extensive disruption can be expected to rail services at present.

Full details will be confirmed as soon as possible. However, we cannot guarantee any services across DART and Dublin Commuter services, and cancellations on Intercity routes are also expected.

skeogh82 · 31-03-2017 06:17AM

About 8 guys with handwritten signs outside clontarf road IR depot this morning @6am....I couldn't tell if they were BE staff or IR staff...

So I guess that means no darts today....

BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

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