BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

Bass Reeves · 30-03-2017 11:46AM

end of the road wrote: »

courts would see through that stunt in a flash.

Nothing to see through workers can be sacked without redundancy for Strikng so you are incorrect

end of the road wrote: »

on the basis the company would be trying to get around not paying redundantsy. and probably more. yeah, i'd say that stunt would be saw through rather quickly.

This is incorrect as if the company went in to liquidation only statutory redundance would be payable. If there was more debts than equity in the firm the state would have to pay the redundancy. It is quite possible if the company was in recievership/court protection the court appointed examiner would/could issue a return to work ulimatum and if it was ignored he be entitle to sack the striking workers

end of the road wrote: »

private companies have always been allowed to operate in competition with be on certain routes and did so. there have been private operators long before be even existed

if it didn't need a subsidy then it wouldn't be getting it.

Again incorrect and spin CIE had the control of liciencing and used to examin applications and put in place services often before issuing licences to operators pre 2009.

end of the road wrote: »

because the relevant authorities will all ready have the required information to determine if the route needs a PSO or not. that is their job after all.

Again incorrect there was no tendering of routes or allowing of application of unsubsidized liciences on lots of routes ran by the CIE group when the NTA was set up there fore the relevant authorities had no information. All that happened was that BE, DB and IE were given blanket subvention's

pilly wrote: »

I live outside the pale Stringer. Live in a small village, work in another small village and shop in a small town. Not ONE person has mentioned it all week.

This argument of rural Ireland would be lost is a bit of a myth being thrown out there by unions if you ask me.

People are getting on with it. The truth is that most commuter routes from the pale into Dublin are commercially viable espectially with commuter tax incentives. In Rural Ireland lots routes of routes might be viable by smaller flexible operators running minibuses. But people from rural Ireland are resillant and nobody will leave someone at the side of the road.

boombang · 30-03-2017 12:39PM

I think the union rhetoric in the attached document tells a lot about what is wrong with the union perspective

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/bus-éireann-workers-promise-mother-of-all-strikes-against-the-blueshirts-1.3030420

Mebuntu · 30-03-2017 12:42PM

kerosene wrote: »

If you were looking for the bus drivers on strike there was around 40/50 of them in Mulligans on Poolbeg street yesterday, early afternoon.

No shortage of money for drink, then.

They'll be back out to Busarus later to form the background to Ingrid Miley's report on the Six One news.

Bass Reeves · 30-03-2017 12:47PM

boombang wrote: »

I think the union rhetoric in the attached document tells a lot about what is wrong with the union perspective

It is just vitriol that they are spitting out. It should be noted taht neither DB or IE drivers that were working attended. Was this because there was little or no support or that the unions were arfraid of cour action if a mass of workers from DB and IE carried out an illegal strike.

It really shows the contemp that these union organisers show for people democratically elected. This goes back to Paul Murphy and the treatment of Joan Bruton. These individuals are rabble rousers only. Calling democratically TD ''Blueshirts'' a slang term from the thirties. It easy to see why joe public has enough of these individuals and why workers in the private sector have abandoned uniond in there droves.

horseburger · 30-03-2017 12:51PM

devnull wrote: »

I have no desire to get into personal spats, whilst also please understand that the last couple of days I have had a lot going on and have not had time to reply to every single point from every single poster.

On the one hand you are accusing me of "spin" but at the same time you seem to kind of half agree with the point that I made about the news reports, to which I referred.

You stated, in an earlier post, in response to the point I was making, about the two RTE News reports:

I call that more of a neutral comment, the journey planner will show where there are alternatives and where there are not alternatives they will not show. The point is that RTE is rarely detailed enough on matters or in-depth on such things like a bus strike and often looks at things in an all too brief matter, the fact they're happy for people to say stuff without even checking it's correct is testament to that.

I have my views you have yours, both are entitled to them and I won't be drawn into any personal spats on this board, I appreciate that different people have different views and that is why I believe people have a right to have their views heard even if you disagree with them and it's clear both me and you disagree on a lot.

You are just speculating and you mentioned that the 109 is the kind of service that privates do not operate and then I tell you why and you tell me that it is not relevant? You made a point and I'm giving you some background to it, unfortunately you will find on Boards that unlike RTE, often you will find people will add depth and analysis of what people say

You don't know how they will work either, none of us posses a crystal ball, we will have to wait and see what happens, you are just speculating, as I would be if I started talking about it, I've already stated on many occasions that I have no connection to any transport company, I am not registered as a member of any political party and have no involvement with the industry at all - that's true, nothing more I detest than a liar so I'm certainly not one.

Here you go again. I did not accuse you of lying, but you seem to be accusing me of lying, based on the way you have phrased this last sentence.

I simply observed that you regularly criticize policies implemented by Fianna Fáil, and on one occasion I highlighted similarities between what you argue on this forum, in terms of the public transport policy of the current government, and an article that was recently written by a Fine Gael public representative.

To use your argument, I could also counter argue, that you don't have to be a member of a political party, or work in the industry, to have very valid concerns as to what the outcome might be, if Bus Éireann does collapse, as advocated by some who contribute to this form.

You try to stymie debate on that issue regularly. On the one hand you say it is just speculation, but if I wait till the decision is actually made, to discuss this, you will then say to me that there's no point talking about it, that the decision has been made, and there's nothing that can be done about it.

Peppa Pig · 30-03-2017 12:54PM

boombang wrote: »

I think the union rhetoric in the attached document tells a lot about what is wrong with the union perspective

“He hates trade unions. He hates everything that we stand for,” Mr Noone said. “When Minister Ross is not here, Bus Éireann will still be here.” He promised to “ bring this country to a standstill if we have to”.

Phenomenal rhetoric. Right up there with Ogle's threat to "turn the lights off for Christmas".
And people still wonder why the majority of people despise unions when they come out with crap like this, particularly as Noone will still collect his six figure salary no matter what happens the bus workers.

horseburger · 30-03-2017 01:03PM

sjb25 wrote: »

I live outside the pale I had to get the bus Monday got from Wexford to Louth got on perfectly fine with two separate private bus operators (Wexford bus and Matthew's) hassle free on time nice buses both companies good price didn't miss bus eireann at all feck them at least I can rely on the privates

Has anyone ever described private services as not being "nice buses"?

There is an assumption being made by people on this forum that anyone who shows concern about what might result, if Bus Éireann ends, that they are also being very negative about the services currently operated by other companies.

That is inaccurate.

My concern is about the fact that many of the current private services, operate a different type of timetable, to many of Bus Éireann's services.

For example, many companies operate on the basis of going to Dublin in the morning and home again in the evening and don't provide services from Dublin in the morning and back to Dublin in the evening.

I am also concerned as to whether or not other companies would actually be inclined, to take on to operate, many of the services currently operated by Bus Éireann, if Bus Éireann ends, in the way advocated by many people in this discussion.

And for that, I constantly get accused of speculating!:)

devnull · 30-03-2017 01:12PM

horseburger wrote: »

Here you go again. I did not accuse you of lying, but you seem to be accusing me of lying, based on the way you have phrased this last sentence.

I never accused you of lying, I simply said I wasn't. Please stop accusing me of things I did not say.

I simply observed that you regularly criticize policies implemented by Fianna Fáil, and on one occasion I highlighted similarities between what you argue on this forum, in terms of the public transport policy of the current government, and an article that was recently written by a Fine Gael public representative.

Am I not allowed to have my own views?

You try to stymie debate on that issue regularly. On the one hand you say it is just speculation, but if I wait till the decision is actually made, to discuss this, you will then say to me that there's no point talking about it, that the decision has been made, and there's nothing that can be done about it.

I don't do anything of the sort, if you have concerns there is a report post button you can use and the moderator will deal with it, I'm not going to be drawn into back seat modding.

I won't, but you can speculate that I will, but no doubt you will moan I am saying you are speculating when it's exactly what you are doing here. If I do what you say I will, you can bring this post back and call me a hypocrite and you can throw this post in my face all day long. You won't though, because I won't turn around and say that.

horseburger wrote: »

My concern is about the fact that many of the current private services operate a different type of timetable to many of Bus Éireann's services.

For example, many companies operate on the basis of going to Dublin in the morning and home again in the evening and don't provide services from Dublin in the morning and back to Dublin in the evening.

And I was pointing out that you are comparing apples with Oranges because routes like the 109 are not open to privates because they were given automatically to Bus Eireann and no competition is allowed and this goes for pretty much every single socially necessary route in the country that is not viable in BE's eyes.

You're basically saying that BE operates services when it gets free buses and paid to do so and such services when privates don't when they don't get free buses and are not able to do so, and even wanted to do so, it's hardly rocket science to work out why that might be, both me and you know the reason but when I point it out you tel me it's not relevant which is laughable.

I am also concerned as to whether or not other companies would actually be inclined, to take on to operate, many of the services currently operated by Bus Éireann, if Bus Éireann ends, in the way advocated by many people in this discussion.

And for that, I constantly get accused of speculating!:)

But it is speculation isn't it, because you don't know, as far as I'm aware speculation meant that "the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.", you do not have any firm evidence hence why you are comparing apples with oranges rather than apples with apples and what you say is conjecture and theory.

I admire your attempt to try and analyse everything I say and have a say and make some remark about me though rather than sticking to topic, my posts must really get up your nose and it must be quite draining for you and others to constantly read it.

Graham · 30-03-2017 01:13PM

horseburger wrote: »

I am also concerned as to whether or not other companies would actually be inclined, to take on to operate, many of the services currently operated by Bus Éireann, if Bus Éireann ends, in the way advocated by many people in this discussion.

The Unions and drivers appear to have no doubt that the private operators would pick up the routes. Hence their vociferous objections to the prospect.

bk · 30-03-2017 01:20PM

horseburger wrote: »

My concern is about the fact that many of the current private services, operate a different type of timetable, to many of Bus Éireann's services.

Why do you constantly repeat the same nonsense over and over again that keeps getting corrected and explained, but which you then ignore and repeat again!

BE have a monopoly on PSO routes. No private company is currently allowed to compete with BE on these routes, even when they want to. That is why there are no private buses on these routes, for instance the 109. It really is very simple and I'm not sure why it needs to be explained to you over and over again!

One would assume that if BE goes under, then the NTA will put these PSO routes out to open and transparent tender and that many private companies and probably Dublin Bus too * might bid to operate these routes. Whoever wins the license will be required to operate the same schedule (or better) then BE as per the NTA contract.

This really isn't rocket science! This is how it works all over Europe and very successfully.

* Interestingly this could be quite an opportunity for Dublin Bus to actually expand the company. DB seem to be a lot more efficient then BE and ready for competition. I'm certain DB management would be interested in running BE routes in the greater Dublin region and they might even be interested in running some of the regional city services giving their experience and fleet.

You see I'm really not anti-public services or even anti-decent wages. What I'm anti is horrible inefficiency, jobs for the boys, putting the employees ahead of the customer and lack of innovation and moving with the times.

54and56 · 30-03-2017 01:21PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

People are getting on with it. The truth is that most commuter routes from the pale into Dublin are commercially viable espectially with commuter tax incentives. In Rural Ireland lots routes of routes might be viable by smaller flexible operators running minibuses. But people from rural Ireland are resillant and nobody will leave someone at the side of the road.

100%

Yesterday Willie Noone of SIPTU said “When Minister Ross is not here, Bus Éireann will still be here.” and he promised to “bring this country to a standstill if we have to”.

It's clear from the lack of inconvenience being experienced by the great majority of people that BE has become an irrelevance, that the private operators are capable of delivering equivalent or better services, that the private operators have the capacity to take on passengers who would previously have used BE and that BE won't actually be missed by anyone other than the employees whose skills and experience won't command anything like the pay they currently get in BE and the unions who will have one less pool of contributing members.

“bring this country to a standstill if we have to”. :rolleyes: Hilarious.

Graham · 30-03-2017 01:41PM

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Yesterday Willie Noone of SIPTU said “When Minister Ross is not here, Bus Éireann will still be here.” and he promised to “bring this country to a standstill if we have to”.

They have to try and get back into the headlines somehow.

sjb25 · 30-03-2017 01:45PM

horseburger wrote: »

My concern is about the fact that many of the current private services, operate a different type of timetable, to many of Bus Éireann's services.

For example, many companies operate on the basis of going to Dublin in the morning and home again in the evening and don't provide services from Dublin in the morning and back to Dublin in the evening.
)

Both private companies I used have buses going in either direction at the very least every hour all day when I looked them up what wrong with that for a timetable that's two different companies

pilly · 30-03-2017 02:01PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

boombang wrote: »

I think the union rhetoric in the attached document tells a lot about what is wrong with the union perspective

It is just vitriol that they are spitting out. It should be noted taht neither DB or IE drivers that were working attended. Was this because there was little or no support or that the unions were arfraid of cour action if a mass of workers from DB and IE carried out an illegal strike.

It really shows the contemp that these union organisers show for people democratically elected. This goes back to Paul Murphy and the treatment of Joan Bruton. These individuals are rabble rousers only. Calling democratically TD ''Blueshirts'' a slang term from the thirties. It easy to see why joe public has enough of these individuals and why workers in the private sector have abandoned uniond in there droves.

I agree, it's like the unions are stuck in a bygone era and never move forward. They really have to change tack if they're going to survive at all.

monument · 30-03-2017 02:10PM

horseburger wrote: »

Here you go again. I did not accuse you of lying, but you seem to be accusing me of lying, based on the way you have phrased this last sentence.

I simply observed that you regularly criticize policies implemented by Fianna Fáil, and on one occasion I highlighted similarities between what you argue on this forum, in terms of the public transport policy of the current government, and an article that was recently written by a Fine Gael public representative.

To use your argument, I could also counter argue, that you don't have to be a member of a political party, or work in the industry, to have very valid concerns as to what the outcome might be, if Bus Éireann does collapse, as advocated by some who contribute to this form.

You try to stymie debate on that issue regularly. On the one hand you say it is just speculation, but if I wait till the decision is actually made, to discuss this, you will then say to me that there's no point talking about it, that the decision has been made, and there's nothing that can be done about it.

Banned for a week for overly focusing on a poster and not the topic at hand -- in the context of warnings in the thread about such and about staying on topic too.

-- moderator

BoatMad · 30-03-2017 02:11PM

horseburger wrote: »

Has anyone ever described private services as not being "nice buses"?

There is an assumption being made by people on this forum that anyone who shows concern about what might result, if Bus Éireann ends, that they are also being very negative about the services currently operated by other companies.

That is inaccurate.

My concern is about the fact that many of the current private services, operate a different type of timetable, to many of Bus Éireann's services.

For example, many companies operate on the basis of going to Dublin in the morning and home again in the evening and don't provide services from Dublin in the morning and back to Dublin in the evening.

I am also concerned as to whether or not other companies would actually be inclined, to take on to operate, many of the services currently operated by Bus Éireann, if Bus Éireann ends, in the way advocated by many people in this discussion.

And for that, I constantly get accused of speculating!:)

You sir, have an entirely incorrect view of BUs Eireann services

BE in effect has two operating divisions, its PSO routes and its commercial arm - Expressway

On its PSO routes BE is paid by the taxpayer to operate routes that are not deemed commercial . BE does nothing out of the goodness of its heart !.

on Expressway , BE provides a commercial service and is open under EU rules to completion.

Expressway is where BE cant compete and its loosing money

removing expressway would still leave PSO BE

BoatMad · 30-03-2017 02:13PM

Yesterday Willie Noone of SIPTU said “When Minister Ross is not here, Bus Éireann will still be here.” and he promised to “bring this country to a standstill if we have to”.

then ban secondary and sympathetic strikes , and anyone advocating them Mr Noone, then sees the inside of Portlaoise prison

Graham · 30-03-2017 02:17PM

BoatMad wrote: »

then ban secondary and sympathetic strikes , and anyone advocating them Mr Noone, then sees the inside of Portlaoise prison

I'd agree with bringing in legislation to ban secondary/sympathy strikes but I'm not sure handing the unions a martyr-card is the answer.

I think much better results could be achieved by holding the unions financially responsible for any losses incurred by unrelated employers during secondary industrial action.

Idbatterim · 30-03-2017 02:19PM

with many of the staff foregoing their wages, they cant be too badly off :rolleyes:

BoatMad · 30-03-2017 02:20PM

Graham wrote: »

I'd agree with bringing in legislation to ban secondary/sympathy strikes but I'm not sure handing the unions a martyr-card is the answer.

I think much better results could be achieved by holding the unions financially responsible for any losses incurred by unrelated employers during secondary industrial action.

agreed , it was used to great effect in the UK to bring public sector unions to heel

pilly · 30-03-2017 02:22PM

I would bet my next weeks wages that DB will not go out on strike in sympathy with these bully boys. They've already got their deal with no help from BE, why would they go losing money for them?

IE might because they haven't gotten anything recently but not a hope in hell will DB.

It's an idle threat. Either way, before they can ballot these people and give notice BE will be in examinership.

BoatMad · 30-03-2017 02:24PM

pilly wrote: »

I would bet my next weeks wages that DB will not go out on strike in sympathy with these bully boys. They've already got their deal with no help from BE, why would they go losing money for them?

IE might because they haven't gotten anything recently but not a hope in hell will DB.

It's an idle threat. Either way, before they can ballot these people and give notice BE will be in examinership.

it really doesnt matter. There is nothing that can be done to either maintain rates if income and save jobs in BE, one or the other will have to happen.

The Gov cant solve this , BEs Expressway business cant compete , either it lowers its costs or it closes Expressway

Stephen15 · 30-03-2017 02:36PM

Wasn't there a rather costly Deloitte report that found Bus Eireann and Expressway to be profitable. I remember an OP on a previous thread saying this a while back.

BoatMad · 30-03-2017 02:42PM

Stephen15 wrote: »

Wasn't there a rather costly Deloitte report that found Bus Eireann and Expressway to be profitable. I remember an OP on a previous thread saying this a while back.

a read of the 2015 BE financial report is illuminating

BE issues , say unlike IE, is that it actually has a very small net asset position , 16 million in 2015, as a percentage of accumulating losses ( on expressway for 2014,2015,2016) , it now in a position where its looses are either close to or exceeding its net asset position

The company is therefore close to or already insolvent

This is unlike Irish Rail , who has a huge net asset position , because it has considerable land and building assets that are revalued upwards every year. Hence it can stomach almost endless losses with going insolvent

BE has no such cushion

Even if the Gov patched up BE today , the problem of loss making Expressway routes would continue and the insolvent position would just reappear in a years time .

Stephen15 · 30-03-2017 02:42PM

pilly wrote: »

I would bet my next weeks wages that DB will not go out on strike in sympathy with these bully boys. They've already got their deal with no help from BE, why would they go losing money for them?

IE might because they haven't gotten anything recently but not a hope in hell will DB.

It's an idle threat. Either way, before they can ballot these people and give notice BE will be in examinership.

I reckon that SIPTU saying they're balloting memyers in DB and IE is just a scaremongering tactic to try and force out a win for them in this dispute because the goverment might have a better chance of getting involved.

bk · 30-03-2017 02:56PM

BoatMad wrote: »

removing expressway would still leave PSO BE

You are correct in everything you say above. However it needs to be added that if the strike goes on much longer, then the whole company will accumulate even more loses and the whole company is in risk of going insolvent, including the PSO arm.

The PSO arm can probably be saved if the unions return to honest talks on changes with management today. Those changes are going to be painful, but are necessary if the bigger and more important PSO arm is to be saved.

It is likely too late for Expressway, it will either be sold off if they can find a buyer or just shut down with redundancies.

Over on the PSO side there definitely needs to be changes too. Elimination of most of the overtime, more efficient rotas, sick time issue resolved, cuts to numbers of admins and management and probably cuts to their wages too.

But as things stand, even the PSO arm is now under threat too.

Mebuntu · 30-03-2017 02:56PM

Yesterday Willie Noone of SIPTU said “When Minister Ross is not here, Bus Éireann will still be here.” and he promised to “bring this country to a standstill if we have to”.

That tells you all you need to know about these union bully boys. They are fully prepared without shame to cause untold damage to our country and its citizens. I'm glad to see that they are being treated with the contempt they deserve and that their power to impose their will on the Government and people will soon be be removed for good.

devnull · 30-03-2017 03:02PM

bk wrote: »

It is likely too late for Expressway, it will either be sold off if they can find a buyer or just shut down with redundancies.

Nobody will buy Expressway, they might buy the licenses but they won't buy the whole operation with staff, no private operator is going to want to inherit that mess.

sjb25 · 30-03-2017 03:30PM

bk wrote: »

either be sold off if they can find a buyer

.

Private bus operators reading this

LeinsterDub · 30-03-2017 03:35PM

devnull wrote: »

Nobody will buy Expressway, they might buy the licenses but they won't buy the whole operation with staff, no private operator is going to want to inherit that mess.

Can licenses be bought would they not just be re-tendered?

BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

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