BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

devnull · 27-03-2017 10:11PM

end of the road wrote: »

EU countries often work around the restrictions. the commission may be strict on state aid but if they can't prove it has taken place then there is nothing they can do.

So now not only are you backing the drivers and the drain on the taxpayers the company is cause, your now saying the country should risk an EU fine to sustain that position and heap even further misery on the taxpayers.

Bass Reeves · 27-03-2017 10:19PM

devnull wrote: »

Considering the fact that service is a partnership between the operators (GoBus) and the owners of the brand, bus terminus locations and marketing budget (Bus Eireann) that could be tricky and kill the relationship though if they were to do that so I doubt it will happen unless GoBus want out.

It might suit BE as the unions would be penalised if they continued to interfere with GoBe. As well if unions were seen to endorse this action they be open to court saction

Bass Reeves · 27-03-2017 10:19PM

devnull wrote: »

Considering the fact that service is a partnership between the operators (GoBus) and the owners of the brand, bus terminus locations and marketing budget (Bus Eireann) that could be tricky and kill the relationship though if they were to do that so I doubt it will happen unless GoBus want out.

It might suit BE as the unions would be penalised if they continued to interfere with GoBe. As well if unions were seen to endorse this action they be open to court saction

oppenheimer1 · 27-03-2017 10:23PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It might suit BE as the unions would be penalised if they continued to interfere with GoBe. As well if unions were seen to endorse this action they be open to court saction

Union's, standing up for the working man, except of course when the working man works for someone else. What right had those strikers to prevent GoBe from operating?

What would you use to describe people who refuse to let others earn a days wages? Not socialist anyway.

BoatMad · 27-03-2017 10:32PM

devnull wrote: »

Considering the fact that service is a partnership between the operators (GoBus) and the owners of the brand, bus terminus locations and marketing budget (Bus Eireann) that could be tricky and kill the relationship though if they were to do that so I doubt it will happen unless GoBus want out.

can't see BE management objecting , so no issues there :cool:

Where there is no overlap at all with private routes and they have no competition I can see that happening and lets be fair, the route like the 21 which is being spoke about as rolling over if BE extinguish it as they plan, I'd have no problem with.

Ive no issue where a private operator states that the route cant be operated unless a PSO is paid. The key to determining if a route is a PSO is to tendered it out for commercial operation , only if that fails should a PSO be considered

T

here is also an argument to drop some Towns (within licensing guidelines) on routes between the big cities that are making the commercial services nonviable and hive them off to their own PSO routes to connect with commercial services, providing it is not done in a way which requires a change to a criteria of a license which is not available*

apply my simple test, on routes where there is an argument over PSO. tender the route . if it works commercially its not a PSO.

* By this I mean for example, if a route has 10 stops between city A and city B, they should be allowed to trim it to 4-5 and then the nonviable stops get hived off to a connecting service as a PSO route. They shouldn't however be allowed to trim it to an express service, unless there was not already two operators who had such licenses, they should just be given options to stay as is, cut the stops within the permitted number for a license type, or give it up totally.

interurban via motorway should be just that with routes taking into account the modern motorway network. A bus full leaving a city , should not be forced to travel through hamlets just for the perverse purpose of it.

again the simple test is simple , where there is an issue over commercialisation, first offer it to tender. Only then if that fails consider a PSO .

The bus operator is irrelevant, only the service counts . if BE is competitive it will win routes including PSO routes if not it goes out of business. it has no God given right to exist per se

the problem is of course, is that the PSO routes are not just that they are a hidden way to subvent BE as a whole .

end of the road · 27-03-2017 10:52PM

BoatMad wrote: »

The key to determining if a route is a PSO is to tendered it out for commercial operation , only if that fails should a PSO be considered

there would be no point in tendering routes for commercial operation. tendering should only be for routes where a PSO is paid. for commercial services, the current system is enough. even for PSO services bus eireann is enough but if tendering is coming into play then it should only be for PSO routes.

devnull · 27-03-2017 10:58PM

BoatMad wrote: »

can't see BE management objecting , so no issues there :cool:

Ive no issue where a private operator states that the route cant be operated unless a PSO is paid. The key to determining if a route is a PSO is to tendered it out for commercial operation , only if that fails should a PSO be considered

T

apply my simple test, on routes where there is an argument over PSO. tender the route . if it works commercially its not a PSO.

interurban via motorway should be just that with routes taking into account the modern motorway network. A bus full leaving a city , should not be forced to travel through hamlets just for the perverse purpose of it.

again the simple test is simple , where there is an issue over commercialisation, first offer it to tender. Only then if that fails consider a PSO .

The bus operator is irrelevant, only the service counts . if BE is competitive it will win routes including PSO routes if not it goes out of business. it has no God given right to exist per se

the problem is of course, is that the PSO routes are not just that they are a hidden way to subvent BE as a whole .

For commercial routes no need to tender - what happens now is that if someone spots a niche or wants to run a commercial they fill a form in and the NTA will approve it, as long as there are not two license types of that particular type already on a corridor and as long as the service is not predatory.

BoatMad · 27-03-2017 11:01PM

end of the road wrote: »

there would be no point in tendering routes for commercial operation. tendering should only be for routes where a PSO is paid. for commercial services, the current system is enough. even for PSO services bus eireann is enough but if tendering is coming into play then it should only be for PSO routes.

no , there should be no preference to BE. once the regulations as to the operation of the service are set by the NTA or whoever regulator, There should be no preference to BE

if a route is being considered as needing a PSO, that should ONLY be done after a tender has failed, ie no company BE or otherwise is prepared to operate it without subsidy.

Then if that is decided, then the tender is reissued with a proposed subsidy ,gain who ever gets it is immaterial

on commercial routes, it should be a requirement that more then one company is licensed. no one should be handed a monopoly. either that of have no licensing on interurban bus routes .

BE lives or dies on its competitiveness , as I said It has no God ordained right to exist.

The evidence is that bus operation can be commercial even in marginal situations , therefore the situation with Bus travel is not analogous to Rail Travel , where fundamentally the whole service is unprofitable and different reasons are justified in maintaining it.

BoatMad · 27-03-2017 11:04PM

devnull wrote: »

For commercial routes no need to tender - what happens now is that if someone spots a niche or wants to run a commercial they fill a form in and the NTA will approve it, as long as there are not two license types of that particular type already on a corridor and as long as the service is not predatory.

sounds reasonable , so at least two operators in competition, seems reasonable , keeps everyone on their toes. etc

thats why of course Wexford Bus is blowing BE out of the water on the east coast

Bass Reeves · 27-03-2017 11:47PM

end of the road wrote: »

there would be no point in tendering routes for commercial operation. tendering should only be for routes where a PSO is paid. for commercial services, the current system is enough. even for PSO services bus eireann is enough but if tendering is coming into play then it should only be for PSO routes.

I agree entirely with you EOTR all PSO routes should be tendered. That would mean that if any commercial operator was inclined to run it without subsidy,BE included they should be allowed after declaring there fare structure. In the case of two or more operators opting to run on such a service a fair system to select an operator should be in place( a transparent points system, open draw or a system where operators would take turns in having such routes allocated to them) with a maximum fare/ kilometer in place. In the case of an operator failing to carry out it obligations a penelty system should be in place.

This might reduce the cost to the taxpayer as there might be less PSO routes. Over time this should!D be rolled out with urban services, with all operators allowed to bid for the provision of services.

The Parish Priest. · 28-03-2017 01:29AM

So when do you guys envisage normal service resuming ?

BoatMad · 28-03-2017 01:32AM

The Parish Priest. wrote: »

So when do you guys envisage normal service resuming ?

possibly never

fxotoole · 28-03-2017 08:25AM

The Parish Priest. wrote: »

So when do you guys envisage normal service resuming ?

The core group of Troksyists driving this strike will not give in, Bus Eireann will not compromise on anything short of massive cuts to wages and restructuring of routes, which the union will never agree to, and Minister Ross will not intervene (and rightly so imho), all of which means the company will go under.

Brendan Bendar · 28-03-2017 08:32AM

I hear on the news that SIPTU are planning to ballot DB and IE for strike action in support?

I expected that this would crop up but thought it was illegal?

No real clarification that I can access.

Brendan Bendar · 28-03-2017 08:49AM

Just heard the excerpt from Noone at 0945 MI.

Looks like Noone is trying to bring the country to a standstill.

GM228 · 28-03-2017 08:54AM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

I hear on the news that SIPTU are planning to ballot DB and IE for strike action in support?

I expected that this would crop up but thought it was illegal?

No real clarification that I can access.

Perfectly legal, sympathy industrial action is not illegal as clarified by our High Court in 1994 during the Nolan Transport strike.

Voipjunkie · 28-03-2017 09:08AM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

I hear on the news that SIPTU are planning to ballot DB and IE for strike action in support?

I expected that this would crop up but thought it was illegal?

No real clarification that I can access.

Sympathy strikes are illegal in the UK , i don't know if they are illegal here, they don't appear to be specifically outlawed as long as a trade union follows the legislation re balloting and notice.

GM228 · 28-03-2017 09:24AM

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Sympathy strikes are illegal in the UK , i don't know if they are illegal here, they don't appear to be specifically outlawed as long as a trade union follows the legislation re balloting and notice.

Legislation made them illegal in the UK, the High Court confirmed they were not illegal here and this was reaffirmed by the Supreme Court in 1998.

devnull · 28-03-2017 09:33AM

GM228 wrote: »

Legislation made them illegal in the UK, the High Court confirmed they were not illegal here and this was reaffirmed by the Supreme Court in 1998.

In my view should be illegal. No gripe about going out on strike if you have genuine reasons even if I don't agree with them but if you are not in dispute with your employer should not be allowed

Brendan Bendar · 28-03-2017 09:40AM

devnull wrote: »

In my view should be illegal. No gripe about going out on strike if you have genuine reasons even if I don't agree with them but if you are not in dispute with your employer should not be allowed

Unfortunately the Supreme Court doesn't agree with us.

If I heard correctly there would be at least a few weeks required to do the secret ballot and then on the decision and then a further weeks notice of strike action impending.

Seems crazy to me that the countries transport,well a lot of it anyway,is in the hands of these people.

That's not making any judgement on them, but leaves us exposed to be gouged as we have been in the past and are being gouged right now.

Interesting times ahead.

pilly · 28-03-2017 09:52AM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Unfortunately the Supreme Court doesn't agree with us.

If I heard correctly there would be at least a few weeks required to do the secret ballot and then on the decision and then a further weeks notice of strike action impending.

Seems crazy to me that the countries transport,well a lot of it anyway,is in the hands of these people.

That's not making any judgement on them, but leaves us exposed to be gouged as we have been in the past and are being gouged right now.

Interesting times ahead.

I heard the radio interview with Willie Noone this morning and it was nothing but a threat. They're trying to use this as a bargaining chip. The fact that he said it would take several weeks to put into action gave away his lie.

If BE are still on strike several weeks from now they will be closed down. Simple as.

Either way, Dublin Bus drivers will not go on sympathy strike with them, they already got what they wanted last year without any support from their BE comrades. Why would they?

It's a poorly thought out bully boy tactic that's not going to work.

ixoy · 28-03-2017 09:58AM

Are there bus drivers now wishing they weren't striking as they're seeing a real danger to their livelihood? They can't all be entirely delusional. Do they all now have to continue to strike until the union heads say so or can they call for another vote? I can't imagine dissenting voices are welcomed by that NBRU shower.

Brendan Bendar · 28-03-2017 10:17AM

pilly wrote: »

I heard the radio interview with Willie Noone this morning and it was nothing but a threat. They're trying to use this as a bargaining chip. The fact that he said it would take several weeks to put into action gave away his lie.

If BE are still on strike several weeks from now they will be closed down. Simple as.

Either way, Dublin Bus drivers will not go on sympathy strike with them, they already got what they wanted last year without any support from their BE comrades. Why would they?

It's a poorly thought out bully boy tactic that's not going to work.

Hopefully your synopsis is correct, but personally I would t be so sure.

I see this as a major 'tilt' by the transport unions at the Govt.

I was very surprised that BE opted for an "all out indefinite' strike.Very surprised.

Like when have we seen one of those in the State sector recently?

So bearing that in mind to me anyway, it would appear that the Unions have some kind of 'master plan' in the pipeline for all out chaos.

Bus Eireann on its own would have I feel fairly minimal disruption ability so it puzzles me why they opted for all out rather than staged stoppages if they didn't have some 'nuclear option' lurking in the background.

Time will tell, one thing is sure though, they have minescule public support.

pilly · 28-03-2017 10:21AM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Hopefully your synopsis is correct, but personally I would t be so sure.

I see this as a major 'tilt' by the transport unions at the Govt.

I was very surprised that BE opted for an "all out indefinite' strike.Very surprised.

Like when have we seen one of those in the State sector recently?

So bearing that in mind to me anyway, it would appear that the Unions have some kind of 'master plan' in the pipeline for all out chaos.

Bus Eireann on its own would have I feel fairly minimal disruption ability so it puzzles me why they opted for all out rather than staged stoppages if they didn't have some 'nuclear option' lurking in the background.

Time will tell, one thing is sure though, they have minescule public support.

I haven't spoken to one person who supports them. Even people who did support the DB drivers. I actually did support the DB drivers because I happen to think they take an inordinate amount of abuse from passengers and drive in very stressful situations and traffic day in day out.

BE on the other hand, up and down the motorway with the old people and students.

Bass Reeves · 28-03-2017 10:23AM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Hopefully your synopsis is correct, but personally I would t be so sure.

I see this as a major 'tilt' by the transport unions at the Govt.

I was very surprised that BE opted for an "all out indefinite' strike.Very surprised.

Like when have we seen one of those in the State sector recently?

So bearing that in mind to me anyway, it would appear that the Unions have some kind of 'master plan' in the pipeline for all out chaos.

Bus Eireann on its own would have I feel fairly minimal disruption ability so it puzzles me why they opted for all out rather than staged stoppages if they didn't have some 'nuclear option' lurking in the background.

Time will tell, one thing is sure though, they have minescule public support.

They were caught between a raock and a hard place. The company was going to impose cuts on OT, sick leave benifit and put in place a shift structure. This put the unions in a position in aposition whereby eith they accepted the changes in work practices or went on stike.

28-03-2017 10:27AM

Only way this works out for the Unions is if FF commit an act of total cynicism and pull the chord.

devnull · 28-03-2017 10:29AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Only way this works out for the Unions is if FF commit an act of total cynicism and pull the chord.

Not really.

It could be suicidal since if an election is called they will ruin any possible chance of a bailout until a new government is formed by which time it will be too late.

n97 mini · 28-03-2017 10:31AM

This could turn out like the Waterford dockers strike. Much of the docks in Waterford are now car-parks as a result.

Oafley Jones · 28-03-2017 10:41AM

pilly wrote: »

BE on the other hand, up and down the motorway with the old people and students.

You don't think there are some "interesting" routes in Limerick and Cork city for instance?

bk · 28-03-2017 11:14AM

Oafley Jones wrote: »

You don't think there are some "interesting" routes in Limerick and Cork city for instance?

They aren't particularly interesting.

They are very slow and infrequent. DB is actually vastly superior to them and that isn't saying much!

This is reflected in the figures of the percentage of people who take public transport in Cork and Limerick, compared to Dublin. While of course some people are in-convinced by it, it doesn't really have a substantial impact.

BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

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