Limerick Northern Distributor Road Plan

johnnyryan89 · 28-03-2017 02:25AM

As far as I know UL tried to open up a route using that road when they built the all weather complex and were turned down by whoever owns the land for the route they wanted to use.

marno21 · 28-03-2017 02:34AM

The existing roads connecting to the North Campus of UL are unsuitable for the volume of traffic using them. The already traffic saturated campus north-south road would become jammed with people using it as a through route to Castletroy.

This scheme is the only solution. A much needed upgrade to underspec roads.

pigtown · 28-03-2017 12:19PM

I don't think we can claim it's the only solution when we haven't seen any alternatives.

zulutango · 28-03-2017 12:38PM

marno21 wrote: »

The existing roads connecting to the North Campus of UL are unsuitable for the volume of traffic using them. The already traffic saturated campus north-south road would become jammed with people using it as a through route to Castletroy.

This scheme is the only solution. A much needed upgrade to underspec roads.

It could be a very damaging solution.

I'm sure €150 million would go a long way to providing a rapid bus link into the city centre, maybe even extend it to Coonagh and Raheen? Not that I've run the figures or anything, but this kind of solution seems more sensible.

bazz26 · 28-03-2017 01:02PM

Motorists have been an easy source of revenue by consecutive Governments in this country through taxation - motor tax, VRT, VAT, levy's, duties on fuel, etc. Imo €150 million of that money is well spent if this road diverts the majority of users away from the inner city or at the very least elevates some of it.

marno21 · 28-03-2017 02:26PM

pigtown wrote: »

I don't think we can claim it's the only solution when we haven't seen any alternatives.

Can you suggest some alternatives for us?

zulutango wrote: »

It could be a very damaging solution.

I'm sure €150 million would go a long way to providing a rapid bus link into the city centre, maybe even extend it to Coonagh and Raheen? Not that I've run the figures or anything, but this kind of solution seems more sensible.

That would not solve the lack of connectivity across the north of the city, or the lack of motorway access to Castletroy, UL and the National Technology Park, or the Dublin Road jams.

zulutango · 28-03-2017 02:31PM

marno21 wrote: »

That would not solve the lack of connectivity across the north of the city, or the lack of motorway access to Castletroy, UL and the National Technology Park, or the Dublin Road jams.

No, it wouldn't solve all the problems, but it also wouldn't create the problems that the LNDR will create. My proposal would also incentivise high density city centre and clustered development, which is the msot sensible way forward for Limerick to grow. On balance, it seems like a much more sensible solution than simply building roads to alleviate congestion (which we know doesn't work in any case).

Cookiemunster · 28-03-2017 03:11PM

marno21 wrote: »

Can you suggest some alternatives for us?

That would not solve the lack of connectivity across the north of the city, or the lack of motorway access to Castletroy, UL and the National Technology Park, or the Dublin Road jams.

The Annacotty roundabout on the Dublin Rd outside Vistakon is 1.5km from J28 on the M7. The entrance to UL is a further 1.5km in the road. The NDR won't get those areas any closer than that.

pigtown · 29-03-2017 12:14AM

marno21 wrote: »

Can you suggest some alternatives for us?

I'm no expert but here are a few suggestions. I'm not saying these are in fact viable/effective but I'd like to see the report that studied all possible solutions to the various issues and decided that the LNDR is the best approach (is it too much to assume such a report exists?)

Traffic issues in UL/ Technology Park at peak times;
better cycling and pedestrian links for locals, better public transport links for others, P&R facility near Finnigan's for the area (similar to what Apple does in Cork), flexi-time, staggered start/finish times for companies, UL target fewer lectures finishing in the evening.

Connectivity between the Tech Park, UL, and LIT;
I'd argue that this isn't as important an issue with the internet. Plenty of institutions collaborate across countries and continents, I don't see how this could be a justification for a new road.

Traffic issues around the north of the city;
not very familiar with this area but again better pedestrian and cycling facilities would help. As would better public transport. The rail line which runs through here could be utilised to connect to the Parkway area, Moyross, the city centre.

Again, these are just suggestions and in my opinion if they aren't viable now then we should be planning future growth in a way that will make them viable in the future. This new road will not aid any of this.

zulutango · 29-03-2017 08:41AM

pigtown wrote:

I'm no expert but here are a few suggestions. I'm not saying these are in fact viable/effective but I'd like to see the report that studied all possible solutions to the various issues and decided that the LNDR is the best approach (is it too much to assume such a report exists?)

As far as I'm aware there is no such report. A number of studies simply say it should be built but offer no analysis. It's as if the argument in favour of it is held to be self evident, which is bollocks really. There's a good document called the Limerick Metropolitan District Movement Framework Study which was commissioned by the Council. It suggests 59 priority schemes and the LNDR is not among them.

mitresize5 · 29-03-2017 10:38AM

chicorytip wrote: »

UL staff and students would represent a small percentage of the total number of commuters to and from the general Plassey/Castletroy area on a daily basis. The NDR is really intended as an infrastructural support for the technological park and, in particular, it's largest employers such as Vistakon and Cook Medical.

Huh???? Where did you get that notion

There are 13,000 staff and students in UL. Vastly dwarfing all other employers combined in the area.

Compare trying to get in and out of the place when students are in term and on holidays and you can see for yourself.

zulutango · 29-03-2017 10:43AM

mitresize5 wrote: »

Huh???? Where did you get that notion

There are 13,000 staff and students in UL. Vastly dwarfing all other employers combined in the area.

Compare trying to get in and out of the place when students are in term and on holidays and you can see for yourself.

Why in God's name are so many students driving!? If they got rid of the student car parks or increased the charges then the traffic problems would disappear.

bazz26 · 29-03-2017 11:35AM

Maybe it's their choice, the same way some people chose not to have a car.

zulutango · 29-03-2017 11:41AM

bazz26 wrote: »

Maybe it's their choice, the same way some people chose not to have a car.

But their choice is causing huge traffic congestion to the point where the taxpayers are being asked to fork out 150 million euro for a new road.

bazz26 · 29-03-2017 12:15PM

zulutango wrote: »

But their choice is causing huge traffic congestion to the point where the taxpayers are being asked to fork out 150 million euro for a new road.

Motorists are taxpayers too and pay their fair share for the privilege of owing and using a car in this country on top of regular taxation. They pay annual motor tax, VRT and vat on the purchase price of their car, vat and excise duty on fuel (at least 60c in ever euro of fuel is tax), vat and a levy on car insurance and in some cases pay tolls on roads. Car owners also pay to park in the likes of UL. The Government get so much tax from motorists that they could afford to give some of it to the setting up of Irish Water. Spending €150 million is a drop in the ocean compared to what they take in and while the NDR route maybe up for further study, not providing proper road networks is not the answer imo.

The way I see if people want vehicles out of city centres or reclaim certain areas for pedestrianization/cycle ways, etc then fair enough but like motorists have to do, pay extra for the privilege of it whether it be through a pay as you use system, private/public partnership or tax relief incentive to stay out.

zulutango · 29-03-2017 12:49PM

bazz26 wrote: »

while the NDR route maybe up for further study, not providing proper road networks is not the answer imo.

When we build any new road we should be very careful of the benefits and also the adverse impacts of doing so. In the case of the NDR it seems that the benefits are very marginal and the adverse impacts are very great. It doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.

johnnyryan89 · 29-03-2017 02:23PM

zulutango wrote: »

When we build any new road we should be very careful of the benefits and also the adverse impacts of doing so. In the case of the NDR it seems that the benefits are very marginal and the adverse impacts are very great. It doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.

What are the adverse impacts of the NDR?

zulutango · 29-03-2017 02:51PM

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

What are the adverse impacts of the NDR?

Off the top of my head ...

Increased car dependency and urban sprawl would be one of the main ones. These represent a huge economic cost to any city. We should be planning Limerick such that we are reducing these not increasing them, if we want to live in a thriving city that can provide employment for its citizens.

Significant flood risk. It crosses the flood plain of the Shannon River.

It impacts on some Special Areas of Conservation.

150 million euro cost (minimum).

bazz26 · 29-03-2017 09:19PM

The NDR's purpose is to offer a link between the outer north western and north eastern parts of the city without having to go through the inner centre. People both work and live in these areas of the city along with a university campus and Castletroy that is practically a small town by themselves. What shape the NDR takes should be open for consultation but taking it off the table helps nobody who frequent these areas.

Also you seem to be looking at this from one angle or perspective only - someone who lives and works in the city with no real desire or need for a car. Fine that's your choice but not everyone has the desire to live/work in the inner city or be dependant on public transport. Living/working in suburbs or being a car user shouldn't be seen as holding back the city from thriving or being vibrant. To me it just seems a bit too convenient to blame the car or those who chose to live outside the inner centre for its failings all the time. There is a lot more to it than that.

phog · 29-03-2017 10:32PM

zulutango wrote: »

Why in God's name are so many students driving!? If they got rid of the student car parks or increased the charges then the traffic problems would disappear.

Perhaps it's cheaper for students to drive to uni than pay accommodation fees.

apc · 30-03-2017 09:13AM

zulutango wrote: »

Why in God's name are so many students driving!? If they got rid of the student car parks or increased the charges then the traffic problems would disappear.

There's a breakdown of the UL profile here (http://www.hea.ie/sites/default/files/ul_3_profile_2016.pdf). 13,500 students and 1428 staff putting the total number at around 15000 considering there's also visitors and gym-goers and people working in the innovation hub.

Of the student body, 26% are from limerick while 67% are from Limerick and its bordering counties. So 3510 students from Limerick and 9045 from Limerick and the surrounding counties. These figures don't include the staff and visitors.

Considering that all of Limerick and huge parts of Clare and Tipp are well withing commuting distance and given the high cost of moving out to Castletroy compared to the costs of driving and parking, it's pretty obvious why so many students drive.

Also I don't think increasing the parking charges would work. It's still going to be far cheaper than moving to student accommodation and anyway, there's an abundance of free parking in the surrounding suburbs

zulutango · 30-03-2017 09:48AM

That link is broken ..

mart 23 · 30-03-2017 10:08AM

Why is poster Zalatungo so anti vehicle I wonder is he/she a member or supporter of An Taisce that most progressive of organizations.

zulutango · 30-03-2017 10:27AM

How am I anti-vehicle? They're a wonderful invention. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to build roads everywhere without thinking of the adverse consequences. We should really listen to the experts on this, and the experts don't support the construction of the LNDR. The progressive move is not to build it, in my opinion.

mart 23 · 30-03-2017 10:39AM

zulutango wrote: »

How am I anti-vehicle? They're a wonderful invention. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to build roads everywhere without thinking of the adverse consequences. We should really listen to the experts on this, and the experts don't support the construction of the LNDR. The progressive move is not to build it, in my opinion.

What experts specifically have stated their objections to the construction of the LNDR. Have you connection to An Taisce

zulutango · 30-03-2017 11:33AM

I said the experts don't support the construction of the LNDR, or at least I have not come across any. Do you know of any experts that support it?

MarkR · 30-03-2017 11:56AM

mart 23 wrote: »

What experts specifically have stated their objections to the construction of the LNDR. Have you connection to An Taisce

Everyone is entitled to their opinion here, and I don't think this is relevant to the thread.

mart 23 · 30-03-2017 12:19PM

zulutango wrote: »

I said the experts don't support the construction of the LNDR, or at least I have not come across any. Do you know of any experts that support it?

I assume the qualified road engineers and designers who drew up these plans on behalf of the Limerick and Clare Councils are the Experts . Who they are I have no idea. I know these plans have been altered a few times but all plans are open to change.

pigtown · 30-03-2017 02:27PM

Road engineers are experts at building roads, not at deciding whether a road is the most suitable option.

Transport Planners, and city/regional planners are the people most qualified in this case.

zulutango · 30-03-2017 02:31PM

bazz26 wrote: »

The NDR's purpose is to offer a link between the outer north western and north eastern parts of the city without having to go through the inner centre. People both work and live in these areas of the city along with a university campus and Castletroy that is practically a small town by themselves. What shape the NDR takes should be open for consultation but taking it off the table helps nobody who frequent these areas.

I would have been of this view in the past. I'd have seen the LNDR as a good thing for the development of Limerick. I would definitely have been in favour of removing vehicles from the city centre (which is one of the main reasons to build the LNDR) and therefore making it more feasible to pedestrianise streets, provide cycling lanes and generally make Limerick a more attractive place for people to visit, to hang out in, to live in. It seemed to me that there was traffic on one side of the city (Corbally/Westbury) that could only get to the other side by going through the city, and if we could provide an alternative route then it would enable us to do a lot of positive things in the city centre.

But then I chatted with an experienced and very respected transport planner and he told me that my view was misplaced. That basically when you build this kind of road you don't actually solve the problems you intended to solve and that you create other problems. He pointed to how various road construction schemes in Limerick (and all over Ireland) over the decades were touted as being important to relieve congestion, but they didn't achieve that objective. All that really happened was that they facilitated the low density sprawling outwards of the city and this made people more car dependent, and this meant more roads were required, and the vicious cycle is continuing with the proposal to build the LNDR. It's a mistake that is repeated the world over because it's very tempting to think that if we divert traffic onto a new road then it will solve congestion problems. But it doesn't work and now the more progressive cities in the world are actually removing these kinds of ring road. When I went away and researched it myself I found that he was right.

As a city we need people to be able to get around quickly and efficiently. That is the primary objective. And that means we have to plan the development of the city such that this objective can be achieved. It means resisting anything that will cause low density, urban sprawl because this is very damaging, and it means developing high density (and high quality) residential areas with fast public transport links between them and places of work.

bazz26 wrote: »

Also you seem to be looking at this from one angle or perspective only - someone who lives and works in the city with no real desire or need for a car. Fine that's your choice but not everyone has the desire to live/work in the inner city or be dependant on public transport. Living/working in suburbs or being a car user shouldn't be seen as holding back the city from thriving or being vibrant. To me it just seems a bit too convenient to blame the car or those who chose to live outside the inner centre for its failings all the time. There is a lot more to it than that.

No, my perspective is of somebody who wants what's best for Limerick. It's not that living or working in the suburbs is holding the city back. It's that bad planning is holding the city back. And planning that leads to low-density sprawl and car dependency is bad planning and has a huge economic cost.

Limerick Northern Distributor Road Plan

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