Bus Eireann

BoatMad · 24-03-2017 03:10PM

not failed company, not over paid pampered workers, not let it go. union membership can't be banned, it would be against workers rights and us union members would have to do what is necessary to stop it. we will organise and there is nothing nobody can do about it. the workers don't chose when they work, they work when they are told to work, however they are now on strike as they are entitled to do so. there are no well paid pampered bus drivers, just begrudgers who will never be able to improve their terms and conditions, so will drage everyone else down with them. there will be no race to the bottom, your dream of a high cost low wage economy with no rights will not be realised.

BE is a company whose remit is to provide a bus service. It is not a company that exists to provide a particular level of job to its employees, Your attitude is utterly prevalent through the CIE group of companies. That is that the needs of the staff outweigh the needs of the service, The railway freight business was utterly destroyed by a combination of strikes in the 90s many of them purely on inter-union grounds . waterford Deep port was rendered useless for years as a result of union disputes, ultimately leading too its basic demise.

A job cannot be retained , simply on the basis that you have it and its a job. A job exists because a service is provided or a goods are being manufactured and that entity is essentially solvent in that it gains enough from this activity , to pay its way

BE Expressway is not doing that . Thats the issue here

Wanderer78 · 24-03-2017 03:12PM

PeadarCo wrote: »

No it's a random meaningless phrase used when a person wants to avoid debating substantive points. A fairly simple go to phrase that saves the need to actually debate.

what would you like to discuss?

Pure tashte · 24-03-2017 03:15PM

If Bus Eireann were the only nationwide bus company, it would probably still take 4 hours to get from Dublin to Galway or Limerick, and would cost well over 30 euro. People talking about the downsides of privatisation, but surely a monopoly would make things far worse. As long as there are competing companies trying to provide best service, everyone will reap the benefits. The better/cheaper the service, the more demand for extra services, more employment etc.

Saying that, I don't think Bus Eireann should be completely privatised, as surely the first thing to go would be a lot of the regional routes that people in rural areas rely on.

jimmycrackcorm · 24-03-2017 03:17PM

Wanderer78 wrote:

its the most common economic theory used to date, and we re slowly watching it fail, globally

I'd imagine that you might have argued the same when the power loom took sway.

BoatMad · 24-03-2017 03:19PM

Saying that, I don't think Bus Eireann should be completely privatised, as surely the first thing to go would be a lot of the regional routes that people in rural areas rely on.

The NTA very tightly control bus services in this state, whether rural service and other PSO obligations are provided for by a private operator controlled by the NTA or a state operator controlled by the NTA is entirely irrelevant. the customer doesn't care once the service is provided and operated properly

Bus Eireann doesnt operate rural routes out of the "goodness of its heart ", it is paid a considerable subsidy to do so.

PeadarCo · 24-03-2017 03:20PM

Wanderer78 wrote:

what would you like to discuss?

How is the fact that private companies have completely out competed expressway. That's the bit of bus eireann having trouble it actually makes a profit on its PSO routes. Private companies have given the public more options and generally cheaper options. One because they have to make a profit and as a result there's a very large incentive to keep the customer happy. They also have a lower cost base which is something management within Bus Eireann is trying to remedy.

The success of Ryanair shows how much better private companies can be when it comes to public transport provision.

Surely you can debate this without taking about neo classical theory save it for people who actually have an interest in economic theory like the economics forum.

end of the road · 24-03-2017 03:23PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

The claim about the unions doing the bullying. They are private interests, who's job it is, to do as little work for as much money as possible. They are used to being able to abuse extreme weak governance here. They are piss takers. But the buck stops with the government. The fact they have gotten to 2017 with this kind of pay and service and attitude to work and the public is unbelievable. They have creamed off tens to hundreds of thousands that they wouldn't have gotten in the private sector. To hell with them. As for the cie basket case. The irony of a third world transport system versus the world class pay and perks for those operating it. If MN etc aren't driverless it's beyond any joke!

ireland has never had a weak government. the workers and the unions get the same sort of money from the private sector in the uk, the railway especially and some bus companies. they also got a good deal from the privately operated luas via transdev. metro north not being driverless won't be a joke, if it has to share tracks with other rail systems (luas or dart) then it has to have a driver.

Idbatterim wrote: »

why start a new state company? Anything the state have involvement in, is a joke. Simply use private operators for the buses. Rail is more difficult... laughably rail workers will be the next ones looking for rise, doing more damage to the company that pays them. Well maybe not. I read about some of the services that didn't run today. The amount of people using some of them, wouldn't even pay the driver and fuel!

to simply use private operators for the busses would cost to much, as subsidies and fares would have to rise hugely to insure a profit is made by the operator, who has a duty to it's shareholders. the services you read about are highly used and will cover their costs. you are spouting your bogy anti-rail nonsense again i'm afraid.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Pampered protected workers like those in BE never need to engage in cost savings or efficiencies like most private sector workers. They can strike and hope the taxpayer bails them out everytime. Time to say enough.

there are no pampered protected workers in ireland. nothing to say enough to. it's up to the private sector workers to improve their lot, if they don't wish to they can't complain about others doing so.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Spoken like a true public sector worker!

Next you will be saying companies like Ryanair (where redundancies are rare and which continues to go from strength to strength) are a failure.

Privatisation in this case seems to be the only solution.

If the workers want to threaten the taxpayer/government with all out strikes, then we need to threaten them with privatisation. If they want to dig in, we should dig in also.

if you are happy to pay 10 times the subsidy then privatization is a solution. if you want low subsidy and enjoy the good level of services we have, even in the toughist times, then fixing the problems of the state company is the only solution. privatization won't threaten the workers, who will insure no private operator would be interested even on the small chance they were interested in most of bus eireann's routes, which will never make money.

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

This is totally totally unacceptable. People are left stranded and the government stands idly by. This strike should be illegal and it is an assault on democracy and is inconveniencing the people especially since trains are also involved. A lot of places sadly depend only on those companies. Sure, the workers have a right to protest but NOT this type of thing. It should be DECLARED ILLEGAL TODAY BY SHANE ROSS and he and the government should then settle the issues fairly.

there is no asalt on democracy. making strikes illegal is against democracy, and such rules can be got around so are ineffective. the government can't do anything as it is a dispute between a company and it's workers.

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Yes. They all act like children and it is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE for this strike to be allowed. Surely the government should have legislation in place that:

1. Limits such actions to a single day at most.
2. If a bus strike is on, a train one can't go ahead.
3. Other means besides disrupting the public should be the main forms of industrial protest.

This strike should be declared an illegal public gathering today and all participants should be told they have 3 hours to dismantle their pickets and go back to work or go home (depending on their normal working hours) or face arrest. The greater good here is public service that needs to be reliable.

as i said yesterday, your suggestion would be against the law and against democracy. the government can't declare anything, they have to do it via due process. this is ireland, not some tinpot country.

Wanderer78 · 24-03-2017 03:23PM

PeadarCo wrote: »

How is the fact that private companies have completely out competed expressway. That's the bit of bus eireann having trouble it actually makes a profit on its PSO routes. Private companies have given the public more options and generally cheaper options. One because they have to make a profit and as a result there's a very large incentive to keep the customer happy. They also have a lower cost base which is something management within Bus Eireann is trying to remedy.

The success of Ryanair shows how much better private companies can be when it comes to public transport provision.

Surely you can debate this without taking about neo classical theory save it for people who actually have an interest in economic theory like the economics forum.

im getting bored of quoting the same stuff now, happy friday!

VinLieger · 24-03-2017 03:30PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

im getting bored of quoting the same stuff now, happy friday!

Ahh no don't go im sure theres some catchy trot-speak in the latest pamphlet you still haven't used, how about some classic race to the bottom claims lacking absolutely zero evidence whatsoever ehh?

TheDoctor · 24-03-2017 03:30PM

end of the road wrote: »

the state transport companies don't strike at the drop of a hat.

not failed company, not over paid pampered workers, not let it go. union membership can't be banned, it would be against workers rights and us union members would have to do what is necessary to stop it. we will organise and there is nothing nobody can do about it. the workers don't chose when they work, they work when they are told to work, however they are now on strike as they are entitled to do so. there are no well paid pampered bus drivers, just begrudgers who will never be able to improve their terms and conditions, so will drage everyone else down with them. there will be no race to the bottom, your dream of a high cost low wage economy with no rights will not be realised.

its losing €50K a DAY - its the definition of a failing company.

Workers don't chose where to work? Sounds terrible - people forced to work for BE against their will and can't leave for another job. Modern slavery.

Also to the union guys:

YOU'RE NOT THAT IMPORTANT. The company would go on perfectly fine without, you do the bog standard jobs and can be replaced but someone who would easily do the same job.

You work for the company, the company doesn't work for you.

If you don't like the job, leave and get another one. No one is forcing you to stay.

Awesomeness · 24-03-2017 03:36PM

end of the road wrote: »

the state transport companies don't strike at the drop of a hat.

not failed company, not over paid pampered workers, not let it go. union membership can't be banned, it would be against workers rights and us union members would have to do what is necessary to stop it. we will organise and there is nothing nobody can do about it. the workers don't chose when they work, they work when they are told to work, however they are now on strike as they are entitled to do so. there are no well paid pampered bus drivers, just begrudgers who will never be able to improve their terms and conditions, so will drage everyone else down with them. there will be no race to the bottom, your dream of a high cost low wage economy with no rights will not be realised.

If that were the case then why are they trying to protect their unrostered and unapproved overtime.

If they have been told do do overtime then it is not unapproved

BoatMad · 24-03-2017 03:40PM

end of the road wrote: »

not cost effective. keeping bus eireann and fixing the problems is the cheepest way. public services lose money unfortunately.

clearly it isnt, BE is losing a fortune.
some bus services are " a public service", Expressway for example is specifically not a public service, it was set up as a purely commercial entity

for the public services to become self sufficient would mean huge costs to the user. public services have to be accessable to all.

see my comments re bus services

ireland has never had a weak government. the workers and the unions get the same sort of money from the private sector in the uk, the railway especially and some bus companies. they also got a good deal from the privately operated luas via transdev. metro north not being driverless won't be a joke, if it has to share tracks with other rail systems (luas or dart) then it has to have a driver.

so you think what happened with MT breaking the miners unions could happen in ireland. Ireland traditionally has given in repeatedly to public service union pressure and wages have risen to excessive levels

to simply use private operators for the busses would cost to much, as subsidies and fares would have to rise hugely to insure a profit is made by the operator, who has a duty to it's shareholders. the services you read about are highly used and will cover their costs. you are spouting your bogy anti-rail nonsense again i'm afraid.

BE is required to be commercial on its expressway service and make a profit

there are no pampered protected workers in ireland. nothing to say enough to. it's up to the private sector workers to improve their lot, if they don't wish to they can't complain about others doing so.

if you are happy to pay 10 times the subsidy then privatization is a solution. if you want low subsidy and enjoy the good level of services we have, even in the toughist times, then fixing the problems of the state company is the only solution. privatization won't threaten the workers, who will insure no private operator would be interested even on the small chance they were interested in most of bus eireann's routes, which will never make money.[/QUOTE]

Zubeneschamali · 24-03-2017 03:41PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

if we continue with it, it will ultimately end our species.

I think this is an unlikely outcome of rationalizing Bus Eireann.

end of the road · 24-03-2017 03:47PM

Glenster wrote: »

Here,

Sell all the busses to JJ Kavanagh.

Fire all the staff.

Allow the market to sort itself out.

maybe jj doesn't want the busses. did you ask him? to fire the staff would lead to a huge shortage of drivers and the market will only provide services on the few profitable expressway routes, with the rest of ireland which relies on bus eireann being left without. the market can't be left to sort itself out for the greater good.

Glenster wrote: »

I'm not a woodsman or anything, so that term doesn't apply.

I'm just saying I take responsibility for what happens to me. The bus drivers should stop relying on state handouts.

public services are not state hand outs.

Glenster wrote: »

I have no problem with the government privatising these route with the caveat that certain services have to be delivered to a minimum, that level of state intervention is fine.

you will have a problem when the costs go up, which they will. privatization = profit, which private companies have a duty to make for their shareholders.

Glenster wrote: »

But transferring my taxes to these unskilled scroungers is a disgrace when schools are underfunded health provision is a joke in this country.

you will be transferring money to highly skilled, non-scroungers whoever runs the service, as transport is a public service. schools and hospitals are not getting extra funding, and you are not getting more money in your pocket, as public transport has to be paid for.

Padraig Mor · 24-03-2017 03:50PM

CoolHandBandit wrote: »

Well done to the rail workers as well as the bus drivers. Great to see some still have a moral compass and are prepared to stand up to the race to the bottom for workers.

Tell that to my registered blind neighbour who I saw returning home earlier having being unable to go to college, and having had to hike cross country, because of those train driver scum.

BoatMad · 24-03-2017 03:51PM

you will have a problem when the costs go up, which they will. privatization = profit, which private companies have a duty to make for their shareholders

.

where is that evident . it didn't happen with Aerlingus or Ryanair , in fact the exact opposite happened , fares fell.

you will be transferring money to highly skilled, non-scroungers whoever runs the service, as transport is a public service. schools and hospitals are not getting extra funding, and you are not getting more money in your pocket, as public transport has to be paid for.

you keep missing the point that bus eireann is paid to provide non profitable services, but whats at stake here is the commercial expressway arm, which is in essential charged with being run as a private company . When a private company fails to compete , it fails .

BoatMad · 24-03-2017 03:56PM

Originally Posted by CoolHandBandit View Post
Well done to the rail workers as well as the bus drivers. Great to see some still have a moral compass and are prepared to stand up to the race to the bottom for workers.

secondary pickets , in effect , should be deemed illegal and companies should be allowed to seek redress from the relevant union

Shurimgreat · 24-03-2017 03:57PM

Bus Aras and costly depots in prime city locations all over the country. Lots and lots of back office staff. Ticket counters to sell tickets.
Why? Why all these layers of employees and expensive sites? A legacy of being a monopoly.

Private operators like gobus pull up on the side of the road, the driver takes money and hands out ticket. Streamlined, efficient, no huge overheads, little or no overtime and workers not taking the p*ss.

BE is finished in its current structure. Bloated and inefficient with workers and unions unwilling to compromise. Close this mess down asap.

Shurimgreat · 24-03-2017 04:02PM

Pure tashte wrote: »

If Bus Eireann were the only nationwide bus company, it would probably still take 4 hours to get from Dublin to Galway or Limerick, and would cost well over 30 euro. People talking about the downsides of privatisation, but surely a monopoly would make things far worse. As long as there are competing companies trying to provide best service, everyone will reap the benefits. The better/cheaper the service, the more demand for extra services, more employment etc.

Saying that, I don't think Bus Eireann should be completely privatised, as surely the first thing to go would be a lot of the regional routes that people in rural areas rely on.

Regional routes can be covered by existing private operators with subsidies given to them. You can bet same operators would send out mini buses or buses appropriate to the situation. With open competition the most efficient operator will deliver the best value for the customer and taxpayer, with or without subsidies.

end of the road · 24-03-2017 04:12PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Bus Aras and costly depots in prime city locations all over the country. Lots and lots of back office staff. Ticket counters to sell tickets.
Why? Why all these layers of employees and expensive sites? A legacy of being a monopoly.

Private operators like gobus pull up on the side of the road, the driver takes money and hands out ticket. Streamlined, efficient, no huge overheads, little or no overtime and workers not taking the p*ss.

BE is finished in its current structure. Bloated and inefficient with workers and unions unwilling to compromise. Close this mess down asap.

Bus Aras insures facilities for the public and is a well known location and connection point. on the odd time i ever do have to use the bus, then to there (even with it's issues) i shall go, as i'm in a sheltered location. the non-costly depots in city locations are nothing to do with monopolies, they insure the bus can get easy access to their termuni and the busses have to be maintained otherwise issues will arise. there is no evidence that the privates don't rely on overtime, i would be shocked if they didn't at certain times.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Regional routes can be covered by existing private operators with subsidies given to them.

that would cost more and those private operators would be kept from developing other services that would make them money.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

You can bet same operators would send out mini buses or buses appropriate to the situation.

the current busses used by bus eireann are appropriate to the situation, as they can be used for a multitude of situations, bringing economies of scale and a standard fleet that can be moved around from route to route when required.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

With open competition the most efficient operator will deliver the best value for the customer and taxpayer, with or without subsidies.

incorrect, open competition does not deliver more value for money then the state service it replaced, as shown by experience from britain among others. britain has had tendered services for a few decades, however due to the expence services are being withdrawn in mass and even a couple of cities have began bringing things back in house. the rest is left to the de-regulated market which is always bad for customers. your delusians aren't backed up by experience. profitable routes will always bring some value for money as operators can make money.

end of the road · 24-03-2017 04:13PM

ebbsy wrote: »

Last time I was on Bus Eireann was 2007, going to watch champs league final somewhere.

Better and cheaper services out there.

50k losses per day ? Come on now pack it in lads.

being a public service, it will lose money. the other public services are losing hundreds of thousands per day. we would all like for our public services to make money which would be re-invested but unless we are paying a lot more, it's not going to happen.

peteeeed wrote: »

it seems that people want the subsidies to stop so bus eireann /dublin bus / irish rail should make OAP's / disabled pay a fare and students not get subsidised , discounted travel

correct. they wish to destroy our public transport system, or sell it off so that profit can be creamed. vested interests i'm afraid.

Mr.Micro wrote: »

It's about time Bus Eireann was privatised, along with Irish rail. Both need to be modernised and upgraded.

to privatize them would cost way to much, subsidies and fares would have to increase hugely to pay for it. britain's railway is privatized and it has the most expensive rail fares in the world, huge inefficientsy and costs. it's subsidy had to quadruple and all of the projects that the old br had planned years ago and which were about to be started, are in some cases only getting started now, with others possibly starting in years to come. privatization will not bring modernisation or upgrade anything.

pumpkin4life wrote: »

Let it fall, let it go down, stop funding and start laying people off and listening to these people. Fùcking ridiculous. The private sector will pick up the rest.

If you're worried about the one granny on a rural area bus, then maybe put some Bus Eireann drivers on that. But otherwise, the company should be cut by 95-100%.

incorrect, the private sector will only pick up the few profitable routes bus eireann have, with the rest of the country abandoned. bus eireann has to be funded for the greater good of insuring access to employment, education, and to insure accessability for those unable to drive. this is why hopefully the issues will be sorted and the strike called off as quickly as possible. you want to destroy ireland's public services and the people will not allow it.

end of the road · 24-03-2017 04:14PM

VinLieger wrote: »

The only people responsible for increasing worker insecurity is the drivers by behaving like spoiled brats who throw their toys out of the pram anytime its even hinted they might think about working a bit more efficiently.

They have an absenteeism rate twice the national average, an internal report indicated on average 104 staff were out sick each day, and that number does not include long term sick leave.

They've been taking the piss for far too long and now they have an option to hike up their socks or lose their jobs when the company becomes insolvent.

there is no independant evidence to prove or disprove the contents of this internal report, so therefore anyone can take whatever out of it and use it as part of their agenda whichever it may be.

satguy wrote: »

Let J.J.Kavanagh do for bus users what Ryanair did for air travel..

We can keep 1 or 2 over priced routes reserved for BE, just the way we keep Aer Lingus around. ( for those that want to pay that bit extra)

J.J.Kavanagh wants to operate routes he can make money on, not the loss making routes of bus eireann. if he wants to open new routes, he will.

TheDoctor wrote: »

Just let the inevitable happen and let BE go bankrupt.

Time to restart with a new company as the old one cant be fixed in its current format.

Full clear out needed.

Cant constantly throw money at a company losing so much money - €50k a day!!!

not cost effective. keeping bus eireann and fixing the problems is the cheepest way. public services lose money unfortunately.

TheDoctor wrote: »

No reason for him to get involved. Company has to become self sufficient - not rely on tax payer handouts to fund their bloated expenses.

Or they could double/triple fares to cover their costs

for the public services to become self sufficient would mean huge costs to the user. public services have to be accessable to all.

BoatMad wrote: »

.

where is that evident . it didn't happen with Aerlingus or Ryanair , in fact the exact opposite happened , fares fell.

you keep missing the point that bus eireann is paid to provide non profitable services, but whats at stake here is the commercial expressway arm, which is in essential charged with being run as a private company . When a private company fails to compete , it fails .

the air industry is fully profitable, and it's an industry that cannot be compared to other transport industries.

BoatMad · 24-03-2017 04:15PM

being a public service, it will lose money. the other public services are losing hundreds of thousands per day. we would all like for our public services to make money which would be re-invested but unless we are paying a lot more, it's not going to happen.

This is nonsense

BE is subsidised by the PSO payments to operate non commercial routes

BE , expressway service, which is the centre of the dispute was always meant too be commercial , it receives no subsidy ( and cannot under EU law)

lets stop muddying the debate and focus on BE Expressway

Shurimgreat · 24-03-2017 04:17PM

end of the road wrote: »

Bus Aras insures facilities for the public and is a well known location and connection point. on the odd time i ever do have to use the bus, then to there (even with it's issues) i shall go, as i'm in a sheltered location. the non-costly depots in city locations are nothing to do with monopolies, they insure the bus can get easy access to their termuni and the busses have to be maintained otherwise issues will arise. there is no evidence that the privates don't rely on overtime, i would be shocked if they didn't at certain times.

that would cost more and those private operators would be kept from developing other services that would make them money.

the current busses used by bus eireann are appropriate to the situation, as they can be used for a multitude of situations, bringing economies of scale and a standard fleet that can be moved around from route to route when required.

incorrect, open competition does not deliver more value for money then the state service it replaced, as shown by experience from britain among others. britain has had tendered services for a few decades, however due to the expence services are being withdrawn in mass and even a couple of cities have began bringing things back in house. the rest is left to the de-regulated market which is always bad for customers. your delusians aren't backed up by experience. profitable routes will always bring some value for money as operators can make money.

Your grasp of economics is weak.

Aer Lingus, Telecom Eireann, BE, all examples of large bloated inefficient monopolies who offered no value to customers or the taxpayer. BE might be the last to fall but it will fall eventually as it cannot survive in an open market.

When your employees are paid vastly more than competitors but offer less productivity, you know the end of your company is close.

BoatMad · 24-03-2017 04:17PM

J.J.Kavanagh wants to operate routes he can make money on, not the loss making routes of bus eireann. if he wants to open new routes, he will.

Again BE has no " intentional " loss making routes, it has routes that are designated non commercial and it receives a PSO subsidy , just like a private company would do ( or a PSO contract )

BE runs an expressway service that is especially meant to be commercial . it is not and that is the issue, BE Expressway cannot compete and it failing

Glenster · 24-03-2017 04:34PM

maybe jj doesn't want the busses.

Sell them to anyone then

To fire the staff would lead to a huge shortage of drivers

You'd swear these people were the only ones in the world with a heavy vehicle licence, draft in 1000 truck drivers, increase their pay by 10%, still make a huge saving.

public services are not state hand outs.

They are if they are paying people WAAAAYYYY above the odds for the job they do. If they were paying these people market rates I'd agree with you.

Stop paying these clowns €13m overtime a year, jobs are safe, company is in profit, state isn't transferring money to pay salaries anymore.

All I'm saying is change the Bus Eireann conditions to be in line with what other bus/minibus drivers in Ireland are paid. Problem solved.

Nomis21 · 24-03-2017 04:35PM

40 years as a bus driver I have worked for private bus companies and union controlled public companies where the depot manager did what he was told by the union or the buses were pulled off the road.
Ultimately they all turned into private bus companies in the end because the traveling public will only take so much disruption and the Government has to take a stand.
The writing is ‘On the Wall’ for Bus Eireann and the Union are putting the nails in the coffin. Yes of course, the Government could intervene but they won’t because they know that by tendering the routes to private companies that they will save money, even if their buses are older and more unreliable, at least they won’t be disrupted by strike action any more.

BoatMad · 24-03-2017 04:40PM

even if their buses are older and more unreliable,

I see you have not used Wexford Bus or Aircoach in recent years then

BoatMad · 24-03-2017 04:43PM

the air industry is fully profitable, and it's an industry that cannot be compared to other transport industries.

Maybe youd like to examine , services to the Arran islands, etc etc , we have PSO routes in the air too., so your comment is nonsense

we know that interurban bus routes can be run profitably , private bus operators are clearly surviving

whats not profitable is a specific section of a state company that is burned with excessive costs and outdated and inefficient work practices and therefore cannot compete with modern efficient and agile private companies

nothing to do with " transport industries " not being inherently non profit

Glenster · 24-03-2017 04:43PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

atomisation applies to most if not all, our economic systems are designed to encourage this type of behaviour. if we continue with it, it will ultimately end our species. thankfully stephen donnelly mentioned this again in the irish times inside politics podcast this week.

Seems a proportional response to people taking personal responsibility for themselves.

Bus Eireann

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