BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

murphaph · 24-03-2017 01:19PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If this stand off goes on for more than a few days and the union doesn't back down, I feel BÉ will close down Expressway.

This would be an excellent result for the public. A phased shutdown of BE, starting with Expressway, where there are privates waiting in the wings to take over the routes with second hand BE busses. Should be little disruption there.

That would also presumably frighten the remaining staff operating PSO routes to get back to work, while the NTA works on tendering all these PSO routes out in the future. BE will not win any of these contracts with its high wage cost base, so will be replaced bit by bit until it no longer exists.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 24-03-2017 01:26PM

pilly wrote: »

So are the drivers looking for a raise or not? And why can't anyone just give a straight answer?

If they are looking for a raise btw then I don't support them in any way shape of form, you can't get blood from a stone and if a company is loss making then you can't have a raise.

Don't like it you find a better paid job elsewhere.

I think the matter is more that many drivers are being faced by a 33% pay cut by being denied overtime that was until recently standard so the drivers are putting a claim in for increased pay to give them a negotiating position.
They take the rise and do the efficiency savings and don't do overtime.
I hope anyway that the drivers aren't stupid enough to seriously expect a real rise.

SkepticQuark · 24-03-2017 01:27PM

murphaph wrote: »

This would be an excellent result for the public. A phased shutdown of BE, starting with Expressway, where there are privates waiting in the wings to take over the routes with second hand BE busses. Should be little disruption there.

That would also presumably frighten the remaining staff operating PSO routes to get back to work, while the NTA works on tendering all these PSO routes out in the future. BE will not win any of these contracts with its high wage cost base, so will be replaced bit by bit until it no longer exists.

You seem awfully trusting of the government to properly regulate the private providers if they come in and take the non-commercially viable routes. Be careful what you wish for in this case.

24-03-2017 01:29PM

I'm just wondering about other areas' ability to take over from Bus Eireann. In Louth school runs and some PSO services are passed on to local operators. Local operators also do some town runs so an extra couple of buses for them would fill that gap. There's 3 companies off the top of my head who I'm sure would be delighted to take PSO contracts and could cover them within a week.

LeinsterDub · 24-03-2017 01:30PM

roddy15 wrote: »

You seem awfully trusting of the government to properly regulate the private providers if they come in and take the non-commercially viable routes. Be careful what you wish for in this case.

Government (NTA) and private operators are doing a bang up job so far on the commercial routes. I can't see that changing for PSO routes

lukin · 24-03-2017 01:31PM

Any word on strikes tomorrow?Or will we not know until the morning?

devnull · 24-03-2017 01:33PM

roddy15 wrote: »

You seem awfully trusting of the government to properly regulate the private providers if they come in and take the non-commercially viable routes. Be careful what you wish for in this case.

So far they have done so and have achieved a modal shift that has seen bus passengers increase on the major corridors and a market which serves the needs of the public overall rather than that of one company.

We cannot know what will happen for sure with PSO routes if they are put out to tender because it has not happened yet on a large scale, but the very few that have been put out have had no regulatory issues that I can find.

Any news on what you think Bus Eireann can do about their current situation, I'm all ears.

GhostyMcGhost · 24-03-2017 01:33PM

lukin wrote: »

Any word on strikes tomorrow?Or will we not know until the morning?

It's indefinite meaning all services are cancelled until they say they're not

So for now tomorrow is same as today.

devnull · 24-03-2017 01:34PM

lukin wrote: »

Any word on strikes tomorrow?Or will we not know until the morning?

It is until further notice.

Peppa Pig · 24-03-2017 01:35PM

roddy15 wrote: »

In the art of taking points out of context I see. Read my post fully next time. That goes to all the people thanking your post too. Instead of pouncing on particular sentences at a time like some irritating cat, take the actual post as a whole...

We don't know who offered what either. Talk to unions they say BE wasn't negiotating but they were, talk to BE and you get the opposite.

And the art of not answering questions but having a pop at the poster ....

devnull · 24-03-2017 01:37PM

Neon_Lights wrote: »

Will abuse any bus driver i see today striking in Dublin city centre. Mandated twats.

It's fine to not agree with them, but the current dispute is not acceptable to abuse them.

lukin · 24-03-2017 01:37PM

GhostyMcGhost wrote: »

It's indefinite meaning all services are cancelled until they say they're not

So for now tomorrow is same as today.

Surely they won't strike on a Saturday?

L1011 · 24-03-2017 01:39PM

lukin wrote: »

Surely they won't strike on a Saturday?

Why wouldn't they?

pilly · 24-03-2017 01:40PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I think the matter is more that many drivers are being faced by a 33% pay cut by being denied overtime that was until recently standard so the drivers are putting a claim in for increased pay to give them a negotiating position.
They take the rise and do the efficiency savings and don't do overtime.
I hope anyway that the drivers aren't stupid enough to seriously expect a real rise.

But that's not what I call a pay cut, it's your overtime being stopped. No-one is entitled to overtime, simple fact of life. If you're relying on your overtime to live then you need to get another job. (Not you Ciaran, I mean bus drivers)

lukin · 24-03-2017 01:44PM

L1011 wrote: »

Why wouldn't they?

I booked a bus ticket just in case.I'm getting a train from Heuston tomorrow.Probably money down the drain but worth it for the peace of mind.

BoatMad · 24-03-2017 01:54PM

pesonally I see no reason why the state is involved in providing interurban bus services, aka the Expressway service. exactly as I see no reason why the state was involved until recently in the provision of airline services. I see no issue with private operators providing an air service, the sky didn't fall in when Are lingus was sold.

PSO routes are of course required to ensure connectivity in certain areas, Again , there is no reason that PSO routes per se have to be provided by a state run bus company.

the state inherited a bus company on the nationalisation of the railways, and in fact the primary reason for maintaining a state bus company , was the fact that the railways needed bus competition ( and private hauliers ) to be controlled and the Irish state so complied.

Today interurban railways are a tiny minority of travellers and private hauliers are essentially dominant. hence all the reasons for an interurban bus service owned by the state have disappeared. ( just like sugar beet plants etc etc )

when you find your leap card is accepted by a private bus operator, Wexford bus and refused by the state operator Bus Eireann, you seriously being to wonder whats going on .

CIARAN_BOYLE · 24-03-2017 02:01PM

pilly wrote: »

But that's not what I call a pay cut, it's your overtime being stopped. No-one is entitled to overtime, simple fact of life. If you're relying on your overtime to live then you need to get another job. (Not you Ciaran, I mean bus drivers)

while I agree with you in theory there's a long standing culture of 50-55 hour weeks in bus eireann and reasonable (if a bit silly) to expect that this will continue when it has for as long as any staff can remember.

overtime isn't overtime if it's standard in the long term it becomes an expected perk.

pilly · 24-03-2017 02:05PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

while I agree with you in theory there's a long standing culture of 50-55 hour weeks in bus eireann and reasonable (if a bit silly) to expect that this will continue when it has for as long as any staff can remember.

overtime isn't overtime if it's standard in the long term it becomes an expected perk.

I know where you're coming from but I'm coming from a background of having worked for small companies all my life (various different ones) and you take the rough with the smooth. Money is there, you get it. Money isn't then you don't.

This is why small businesses in Ireland do better than a lot of other countries because they're quickly adaptable to changes in the market and as result struggle through recessions and out the other end.

suicide_circus · 24-03-2017 02:12PM

Private workers' lack of solidarity for public workers is partly jealousy but also the fact that the great pay and conditions ejoyed by particularly legacy public and semi state workers keeps taxes higher than they need to be or at very least diverts money from front line service provision into the pockets of some very underworked individuals

suicide_circus · 24-03-2017 02:28PM

BE drivers' deep concern for rural old people is heartwarming

end of the road · 24-03-2017 02:37PM

roddy15 wrote: »

You seem awfully trusting of the government to properly regulate the private providers if they come in and take the non-commercially viable routes. Be careful what you wish for in this case.

most of those in favour of privatization are in favour of it for dogmatic reasons. in my experience from dealing with such people over the years and asking them questions. i think a small few genuinely believe it might make things better but i can only think of 1 or 2 on this board myself.

BoatMad wrote: »

right on comrade , but what thats got to do with BE and its (in) ability to compete with the private sector. The bus drivers in private companies are just as much part of your " common man " and the working class as BE drivers. Socialism doesnt stop at the gates of semi state premises

that is why we have to stop the race to the bottom in terms of workers rights, terms and conditions, to insure private and public sector workers can earn a fair days wage for a fair days work. many workers are not earning that, and we have to stamp that out for the greater good.

BoatMad wrote: »

why should the state per se, be involved in the provision of bus services at all.

the state has to be involved in the provision of bus services to insure economies of scale, low subsidy and costs, to insure it's politicaly hard to cut services unless absolutely necessary. by handing things over to the NTA and privatization, we lose those in my view, and we cannot allow it.

devnull · 24-03-2017 02:41PM

end of the road wrote: »

the state has to be involved in the provision of bus services to insure economies of scale, low subsidy and costs, to insure it's politicaly hard to cut services unless absolutely necessary. by handing things over to the NTA and privatization, we lose those in my view, and we cannot allow it.

Another old chestnut comes out

Since you appear to not know what economies of scale means, I've included a link for you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale

The idea is economies of scale should reduce bloat and make a company more efficient because the number of staff makes the company more flexible for dealing with things which reduces the cost of overheads.

You claim that what we have with Bus Eirann should lead to low costs, but in reality we do not have that.

LeinsterDub · 24-03-2017 02:47PM

Ironically a thread about a bus strike has turn into a train wreak

Taltos · 24-03-2017 02:51PM

Admin Note
Look differing views are fine, but abusive posts are not on, for a lesson in how to get sitebanned quick the above fits that score.

jimmycrackcorm · 24-03-2017 02:52PM

end of the road wrote:

most of those in favour of privatization are in favour of it for dogmatic reasons. in my experience from dealing with such people over the years and asking them questions. i think a small few genuinely believe it might make things better but i can only think of 1 or 2 on this board myself.

Again it has to be repeated that Aer Lingus had gone from strength to strength since privatisation. And if it wasn't for Eircom being privatized you wouldn't have the broadband to post your replies.

end of the road wrote:

that is why we have to stop the race to the bottom in terms of workers rights, terms and conditions, to insure private and public sector workers can earn a fair days wage for a fair days work. many workers are not earning that, and we have to stamp that out for the greater good.

Their is no race to the bottom. It's just a laziness on people's part to not put the effort into upskilling to improve their earning potential. Certainly in the case of BE your assertion of a fair days pay for a fair days work doesn't apply because a fair day doesn't mean permanent overtime.

end of the road wrote:

the state has to be involved in the provision of bus services to insure economies of scale, low subsidy and costs, to insure it's politicaly hard to cut services unless absolutely necessary. by handing things over to the NTA and privatization, we lose those in my view, and we cannot allow it.

All we see from IE and BE a examples is the opposite of economies of scale which is where we are now.

horseburger · 24-03-2017 02:52PM

pilly wrote: »

I've flicked through this thread because I don't have much time in work today but I still don't know why the drivers are striking.

I did start off initially supporting the drivers because my children use the Expressway service to visit me but a number of things have turned me against them:

1. They are not being upfront and straight about what exactly they would be losing.

2. They have been on media giving out about bus pass holders. They don't seem to realise that if bus pass holders weren't on their bus they'd have a lot less custom and therefore would definitely be out of a job.

3. All this talk of losing overtime is outdated and needs to be got over. NO-ONE is entitled to overtime or bonuses. It's a public service attitude that sucks.

4. One of the bus drivers on Expressway is extremely rude and lazy, gets pissed off because he has to stop at Newlands like it's such a big inconvenience to him while he's sitting comfortably in his seat. All he has to do is pull over and press a button.

Unfair to judge maybe on one driver but come on lads, you want the public to stand by you then be polite to the public.

There are also rude, ignorant drivers who drive private coaches, who act like passengers are inconveniencing them because they have to stop the bus, to pick up passengers, as well as pleasant, friendly drivers. That's hardly a reason to criticise the service.

BoatMad · 24-03-2017 02:59PM

most of those in favour of privatization are in favour of it for dogmatic reasons. in my experience from dealing with such people over the years and asking them questions. i think a small few genuinely believe it might make things better but i can only think of 1 or 2 on this board myself.

Most people just want a good bus service at a reasonable price. very few people care the colour of the bus , or the company operating it. There is no " dogma" amongst bus users.

that is why we have to stop the race to the bottom in terms of workers rights, terms and conditions, to insure private and public sector workers can earn a fair days wage for a fair days work. many workers are not earning that, and we have to stamp that out for the greater good.

sadly ,no one elected BE workers to campaign on their behalf. you are employed too provide a service, and that service , Expressway, is specifically charged with being commercial , i.e. it must at least break even.
There is nothing for you " to stamp out", and your concern for the pay of your " fellow man" is entirely false, I see no BE employees picketing macdonells

the state has to be involved in the provision of bus services to insure economies of scale, low subsidy and costs, to insure it's politicaly hard to cut services unless absolutely necessary. by handing things over to the NTA and privatization, we lose those in my view, and we cannot allow it.

Actually it wasn't and you clearly dont understand the history of bus and rail companies in this state.
equally , were BE actually achieving "economies of scale,", "low subsidy and costs," etc , we wouldn't be here at all. The fact is BE is demonstrably achieving neither of these, because it is saddled with costs it cannot control

pilly · 24-03-2017 03:02PM

horseburger wrote: »

There are also rude, ignorant drivers who drive private coaches, who act like passengers are inconveniencing them because they have to stop the bus, to pick up passengers, as well as pleasant, friendly drivers. That's hardly a reason to criticise the service.

Why isn't it a reason to criticise the service? I'd criticise anyone in a customer service role who is downright rude.

I don't see this as a battle between BE and private operators but if it was I'd be using the bus that had the more pleasant driver.

BoatMad · 24-03-2017 03:02PM

horseburger wrote: »

There are also rude, ignorant drivers who drive private coaches, who act like passengers are inconveniencing them because they have to stop the bus, to pick up passengers, as well as pleasant, friendly drivers. That's hardly a reason to criticise the service.

if they are there , I have rarely seen them, any private bus driver would be on extremely thin ice, if there were customers repeatidly complaining about them.

I live near a town that has a private competitor to BE, The private competitor is running newer buses, has better payment facilities ( it takes Leap and BE does not ) the drivers are courteous and the service is very prompt.

as a result its regarded very well in the area.

ClovenHoof · 24-03-2017 03:03PM

Back to the strike.

You can see by the look on the faces the BE drivers on the RTE lunchtime news that they know they backed the wrong horse going on strike, and a Zero Sum Game for them just went into negative double digits. I can also see how a small group of Ogleite Marxist Headbangers are bullying the majority of drivers into industrial action. They still think it is the 1970's.

In six months time when they all at home watching Jeremy Kyle and taking Prosac and Xannax tablets they will be wondering why they paid any attention to the unions. There will be no jobs for them in private bus operators either as 'BE driver' on the CV will be synonymous with greedy moron.

I have seen some stupid and moronic things in this crazy little country in my time, but this BE strike beats them all.

BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

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